atariksi Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Atari Frogger-- 8K ROM CTIA, very colorful and musical. Slightly better than A2600 version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 actaully it does, maybe you should give the a8 version a listen Honestly joking aside I have listened to that tune for nearly 2 decades...even my favourite remake just cleans up most of the 'instruments' of the SID version. The Pokey version is OK but for me not as good for whatever reason. maybe it's because I listened to the SID version for 2 decades and prefer it (only heard the Pokey version a few months back on the youtube longplay video) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 In terms of a c64 vs A8 forum I think you'd need 2. One to act as a 'reach out' for the curious (which is what half of us were doing here in the first place) and the other as a battleground (basically to keep rockford out of the way ) The domain is registered, phpBB up and running but i haven't patched it to fully stop bot signups yet and the site templates (which are being shared by the regeneration of Oldschool Gaming) still need work because of that fun way that style sheets collide with each other... looking at this thread, i'm also slightly concerned by the stress it'll put on our server Voidrunner too! There are a couple of free PHP boards you can create with no obvious advertising in the case of one you could use instead if you are worried? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Atari Frogger-- 8K ROM CTIA, very colorful and musical. Slightly better than A2600 version. That is quite a nice looking conversion yes. Here's a better screencap for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I'm not familiar with that game but if both versions of R-Type contain same features, then the technical reasons come in to compare which is superior. They contain the same general features (the R9 itself, the Force, horizontal scrolling with the same general level maps as the coin-op, aliens triggered around the same places give or take) but the Spectrum version is simnply far more playable and indeed more accurate to the source game despite the slower refresh speed; the technical reasons don't get a look in. The reverse is true too, the Spectrum version of Wizball has pixel perfect software collisions and the C64 is using some very loose bounding boxes, but it's the C64 version that is more playable because that loose collision system was deliberately tuned that way. Most casual observers would think that Jet Set Willy on the C64 and Spectrum were the same game because they're visually very similar, but just about any Spectrum gamer would seriously disagree (and quite rightly too, that's why xxl ported the Spectrum and not C64 version of it to the A8) because of how the two versions play. And in the cases of Zybex and Draconus the C64 and A8 games play very similarly indeed so, when the technical reasons come into play, by your logic the C64 should've won those by default with no argument from the A8 camp because it has the higher resolution and more colours... Sorry, that's not my logic. The hardware features that are relevant to the game have to be taken into account after all other features are there. So if A8 Donkey Kong has screens not present on C64, obviously it gets some advantage there before you even compare the hardware features it uses. Higher resolution and more colors would be an advantage as weighed with other hardware features. As I stated before, if you play a 320*200*8 PC DOS game in 1024*768*32, it plays worse (so higher resolution would only be of an advantage if objects appear better and playability does not suffer). Similarly, for colors (also which I stated earlier in the thread)-- Atari ST Joust has more colors (and higher resolution), but it's not as smooth as A8 Joust. Of course, forcing colors where they are not needed or don't fit in, doesn't necessarily mean "more colors" is better. Gyruss I think uses higher resolution on C64 but it's worse because it's slower and for a fast-shooting game, the smoother 60Hz is more significant and color scene changes is better than having a Gyruss that statically looks better. Of course, higher resolution looks better on emulation screens than on TV screen shots (see Frogger screen shot just posted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Just to keep things in context (I'm replying to my point to TMR a few pages back), I am giving examples of games that use CTIA and targetted for 16K or less ROM that play better on A8 than other 8-bit machines. So if you had a text adventure game, "Enemy approaching; estimated to strike you within 8 seconds. What would you wish to do?" "Sorry too late, you typed 'fire' after the 8 seconds had expired. Do you want to play again?" Then having higher resolution so that you can see more text on the screen would help. Here's snapshot of Joust as mentioned previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 18 - BASIL THE GREAT MOUSE DETECTIVE C64 C64 C64 The C64 version has better graphics, more colours and plays faster. C64 dominates Atari again. ATARI ATARI ATARI Poor programming again,also post 1985.. get a clue Rockford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Just to keep things in context (I'm replying to my point to TMR a few pages back), I am giving examples of games that use CTIA and targetted for 16K or less ROM that play better on A8 than other 8-bit machines. So if you had a text adventure game, "Enemy approaching; estimated to strike you within 8 seconds. What would you wish to do?" "Sorry too late, you typed 'fire' after the 8 seconds had expired. Do you want to play again?" Then having higher resolution so that you can see more text on the screen would help. Here's snapshot of Joust as mentioned previously. nice score... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 (edited) Sorry, that's not my logic. The hardware features that are relevant to the game have to be taken into account after all other features are there. So if A8 Donkey Kong has screens not present on C64, obviously it gets some advantage there before you even compare the hardware features it uses. Okay, so with Zybex, Draconus, Panther, Last V8, One Man And His Droid, Kikstart, Red Max, Warhawk, BMX Simulator and probably Thrust as well (there's a few Rockford hasn't looked at yet... =-) they all play pretty much the same between the two versions but the C64 wins each time on the hardware front - and yet we've had people preferring the A8 because that's what their subjective opinion reckons plays better or in some cases even which choice of colours is better. Dropzone on the C64 has all the features present (you could argue that it doesn't handle as many simultaneously, but i'd say, subjectively, that i prefer it that way) but scrolls the landscape at twice the resolution, so hardware for teh win again. Edited September 18, 2009 by TMR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 looking at this thread, i'm also slightly concerned by the stress it'll put on our server Voidrunner too! There are a couple of free PHP boards you can create with no obvious advertising in the case of one you could use instead if you are worried? Well, we should be okay as long as things don't go totally barking mad... until i get the templates done it's not really "ready" as such. =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Poor programming again,also post 1985.. get a clue Rockford In other words, you want a comparison prior to the C64 coders finding their feet to skew things in the A8's favour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I think Atari Panther version has a little better music, sound effects and good choice of saturation colors. Instead, C64 has better design of sprites. Playability on both are the same, strangely it feels more accurate on Atari version. Other way your Atari screenshots are not right. This game should be declared as a draw, as there is not a clear superiority on one version from another. Yeah as Rocky Mountains has proven, most UK programmers couldn't program the A8 for toffee Sorry, missed this previously; the developers of Panther were Sculptured Software, an American team. The programmer's name according to Atarimania, is Chuck Peavey, not a contraction of Charles in common use for the UK that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Poor programming again,also post 1985.. get a clue Rockford In other words, you want a comparison prior to the C64 coders finding their feet to skew things in the A8's favour... That's just the problem about comparing software between both computers. C64 came on 1982-1983 and needs some years to get real use of his potential. In the other side, Atari has reach on 85-86 a great level of quality on his software, but soon will lose support from giant house developers, so consequently the quality and quantity software will decrease. I think 1985 and 1986 is a good couple of years to compare, because Atari has a great level and C64 games use all in-box features of his hardware. After 1987 C64 only find low and few portings on Atari side. Off course, C64 reached more quality games above 1990 for the full-exploit of his hardware. Atari never reached this point, it was leave out of the game market so soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I'm not familiar with that game but if both versions of R-Type contain same features, then the technical reasons come in to compare which is superior. They contain the same general features (the R9 itself, the Force, horizontal scrolling with the same general level maps as the coin-op, aliens triggered around the same places give or take) but the Spectrum version is simnply far more playable and indeed more accurate to the source game despite the slower refresh speed; the technical reasons don't get a look in. The reverse is true too, the Spectrum version of Wizball has pixel perfect software collisions and the C64 is using some very loose bounding boxes, but it's the C64 version that is more playable because that loose collision system was deliberately tuned that way. Most casual observers would think that Jet Set Willy on the C64 and Spectrum were the same game because they're visually very similar, but just about any Spectrum gamer would seriously disagree (and quite rightly too, that's why xxl ported the Spectrum and not C64 version of it to the A8) because of how the two versions play. And in the cases of Zybex and Draconus the C64 and A8 games play very similarly indeed so, when the technical reasons come into play, by your logic the C64 should've won those by default with no argument from the A8 camp because it has the higher resolution and more colours... Sorry, that's not my logic. The hardware features that are relevant to the game have to be taken into account after all other features are there. So if A8 Donkey Kong has screens not present on C64, obviously it gets some advantage there before you even compare the hardware features it uses. Higher resolution and more colors would be an advantage as weighed with other hardware features. As I stated before, if you play a 320*200*8 PC DOS game in 1024*768*32, it plays worse (so higher resolution would only be of an advantage if objects appear better and playability does not suffer). Similarly, for colors (also which I stated earlier in the thread)-- Atari ST Joust has more colors (and higher resolution), but it's not as smooth as A8 Joust. Of course, forcing colors where they are not needed or don't fit in, doesn't necessarily mean "more colors" is better. Gyruss I think uses higher resolution on C64 but it's worse because it's slower and for a fast-shooting game, the smoother 60Hz is more significant and color scene changes is better than having a Gyruss that statically looks better. Of course, higher resolution looks better on emulation screens than on TV screen shots (see Frogger screen shot just posted). As I understand it the version of R-Type released for the C64 is NOT the one that was being worked on, that was just a quick hack job by Rainbow Arts after they had their copycat game Katakis blocked by Activision (who had the home computer licence). I will try to find the superior unfinished version (due to lack of time not technical difficulties) as opposed to the quick hack job of Katakis to R-type by Rainbow Arts after the original R-Type contracted developer was dumped to ensure an xmas release or something. I don't think the Spectrum version plays any better in reality and the atrocious TV output quality made it difficult to see all those garish monochrome mess of pixels and dodge anything (yes maybe that isn't the games fault as it's a hardware cheapness of the speccy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Sorry, missed this previously; the developers of Panther were Sculptured Software, an American team. The programmer's name according to Atarimania, is Chuck Peavey, not a contraction of Charles in common use for the UK that! Yep, I wanted to point that out as well... While at Sculptured Software, Chuck Peavey also converted a number of games to cartridge format for Atari (Lode Runner for example). -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 As I understand it the version of R-Type released for the C64 is NOT the one that was being worked on, that was just a quick hack job by Rainbow Arts after they had their copycat game Katakis blocked by Activision (who had the home computer licence). Well, i'd question the use of the term "quick hack job" because what Manfred Trenz did was pretty remarkable in six weeks, but there is a previous version that was aborted because the work was simply taking too long. It's hard to judge by the contents of that demo, though... I don't think the Spectrum version plays any better in reality and the atrocious TV output quality made it difficult to see all those garish monochrome mess of pixels and dodge anything (yes maybe that isn't the games fault as it's a hardware cheapness of the speccy) This is "my" genre, the version of R-Type on the Spectrum is a very playable game and, considering what the hardware has under the hood, it's pretty impressive technically too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 That's just the problem about comparing software between both computers. C64 came on 1982-1983 and needs some years to get real use of his potential. In the other side, Atari has reach on 85-86 a great level of quality on his software, but soon will lose support from giant house developers, so consequently the quality and quantity software will decrease. i still find it really hard to understand what actually happened to leave the A8 in that position from 1985; looking at the budget games on the C64 (which are a good benchmark of what backroom coders were up to), the C64 went from strength to strengh but the A8 had almost nothing apart from the odd title like Matta Blatta or Extirpator and conversions such as Action Biker or the titles i listed previously. i know i'm sounding like a stuck record, but where'd everyone go to?!! I think 1985 and 1986 is a good couple of years to compare, because Atari has a great level and C64 games use all in-box features of his hardware. After 1987 C64 only find low and few portings on Atari side. Rockford's already been covering games from 1986 though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 i still find it really hard to understand what actually happened to leave the A8 in that position from 1985; looking at the budget games on the C64 (which are a good benchmark of what backroom coders were up to), the C64 went from strength to strengh but the A8 had almost nothing apart from the odd title like Matta Blatta or Extirpator and conversions such as Action Biker or the titles i listed previously. i know i'm sounding like a stuck record, but where'd everyone go to?!! This has been covered already... Was there anybody or anything that could push the Atari to new standards in the UK? I don't think so... -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 ...Poor programming again,also post 1985.. get a clue Rockford I think 1985 and 1986 is a good couple of years to compare, because Atari has a great level and C64 games use all in-box features of his hardware. After 1987 C64 only find low and few portings on Atari side. year<1985 or year<1986 or year<1986 or whatever... C64 fans should wait until A8 fans agree on terms of battle, until then we shouldn't show any example because we could be playing against rules Rockford is doing comparisons as he should... Showing pictures and discussing all aspects of games... You should do the same... Off course, C64 reached more quality games above 1990 for the full-exploit of his hardware. Atari never reached this point, it was leave out of the game market so soon. I agree with you Allas... It is out of order to compare games like Turrican 2 and Mayhem with A8 games that were made 6-7 years before them... I like comparissons of what hardware can do... Lots of ideas come from these discussions... If we are lucky enough, new game will arise.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 After 85 A8 still had some support from important USA companies like SSI and Infocom; even EA, Access, Origin, Microprose, Accolade and some other important US companies released another game for A8 or two, but basically by 88 it was all over. Atari kept it going with many re-releases and a few original titles in USA and UK til 90, at the max (Black Lamp was 89). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Just to keep things in context (I'm replying to my point to TMR a few pages back), I am giving examples of games that use CTIA and targetted for 16K or less ROM that play better on A8 than other 8-bit machines. So if you had a text adventure game, "Enemy approaching; estimated to strike you within 8 seconds. What would you wish to do?" "Sorry too late, you typed 'fire' after the 8 seconds had expired. Do you want to play again?" Then having higher resolution so that you can see more text on the screen would help. Here's snapshot of Joust as mentioned previously. The trouble is there 10s of unnofficial conversions of every classic early 80s arcade game on the C64. There's probably 10 versions of Pacman alone so you have to really research the C64 games a lot to be honest.....Atarisoft did some great VIC20 conversions but the C64 stuff is almost worse sometimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 As I understand it the version of R-Type released for the C64 is NOT the one that was being worked on, that was just a quick hack job by Rainbow Arts after they had their copycat game Katakis blocked by Activision (who had the home computer licence). Well, i'd question the use of the term "quick hack job" because what Manfred Trenz did was pretty remarkable in six weeks, but there is a previous version that was aborted because the work was simply taking too long. It's hard to judge by the contents of that demo, though... I don't think the Spectrum version plays any better in reality and the atrocious TV output quality made it difficult to see all those garish monochrome mess of pixels and dodge anything (yes maybe that isn't the games fault as it's a hardware cheapness of the speccy) This is "my" genre, the version of R-Type on the Spectrum is a very playable game and, considering what the hardware has under the hood, it's pretty impressive technically too. I've played both and I can't agree, don't get me wrong I am VERY critical of conversions so it's not a pro-commodore attitude....each to their own. Personally though 6 weeks is another case of rushing things through on the C64 like Space Harrier as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 (edited) After 85 A8 still had some support from important USA companies like SSI and Infocom; even EA, Access, Origin, Microprose, Accolade and some other important US companies released another game for A8 or two, but basically by 88 it was all over. Atari kept it going with many re-releases and a few original titles in USA and UK til 90, at the max (Black Lamp was 89). Adventure and strategy games running in a shop window will never sell any machine sadly. To be honest quite a few companies gave it a go on the A8 especially new comers with even Magnetic Scrolls pushing out 3 nice adventure games. edit: to save rockford the trouble.... The Pawn C64...quite colourful graphics. The Pawn A8 Now the parser on Mag Scrolls games is a hard slog for any 8bit CPU so the graphics were stuck to standard 160x200x4 colours on A8 which hurts the machine....this is probably a classic example of hate the char mode as much as you like but in this case it's what gives the C64 better colours of upto 16 on the graphics with no real impact on the CPU to keep the parser processing time acceptable coming down from things like 8mhz 68000 CPUs as it was designed for. (there are even better scenes of course but as I can't find the equivalent A8 screenshots I didn't add them) Edited September 18, 2009 by oky2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I only just saw this from the Sundown party, but had to post it for obvious reasons.. So, the Speccy now has nice wacky hires colour modes now And apparently someones writing a game in this wacky mode.. http://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26080 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 The trouble is there 10s of unnofficial conversions of every classic early 80s arcade game on the C64. There's probably 10 versions of Pacman alone so you have to really research the C64 games a lot to be honest.....Atarisoft did some great VIC20 conversions but the C64 stuff is almost worse sometimes I was just watching a video on google about the Vic20 and they run through a load of old games, the very early stuff, and they actually look bloody good Especially a lot of the Atarisoft stuff is really pretty good on it.. But such memories.. Radar Rat Race & Jelly Monsters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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