Atari v Commodore

[TMR]

39 - MOUNTAIN BIKE RACER

 

The C64 version has better music, graphics, sprites and more colours. The Atari version has ugly sprites in low resolution. C64 is better again.

Poor job on A8 due to being past the golden age..

 

Written by an A8 coder on both platforms if memory serves...

[atarian63]

c64 "problem" with overscan?

 

there is no "problem". this implies its supposed to have it and it doesnt work.

It doesnt have overscan so there is no "problem"

 

just like there is no "problem" with the ataris sprite capability or sound chip.

 

Steve

Made no difference as we sold Atari ST 4-1 over Amiga until about 1990. Amiga then sold hot for maybe a year,then it was over for both mostly.

[atarian63]

Poor job on A8 due to being past the golden age..

 

Written by an A8 coder on both platforms if memory serves...

poor coders blame the machine. It doesnt make even 1983 level of A8. Must either not have spent much work on A8 or lower sales expectations due to the time of release.

[atarian63]

Drop zone for the A8, excellent. Here is what the author had to say about the A8 vs C64

JH: 'What was your favorite part of Dropzone, on a technical level?'

 

AM: 'Squeezing the hardware in the Atari 800 to its limits and making it better than anything else then available. What was more amazing to me was the challenge of making it work on the less capable Commodore 64. It was a real nightmare implementation, but I did it.'

 

To be fair, Archer wasn't exactly the sharpest pencil in the case

To be fair I think he is saying the the C64 wasn't the sharpest pencil in the case You must admit the game is excellent! Also the c64 version is not too shabby though not as good.

Edited October 10, 2009 by atarian63

[Tezz]

With Zeppelin, Brian Jobling had a set limit of roughly 3 months for each game start to finish. As they understood the market position here, they would know that A8 games sales would be significantly lower than the other platforms they developed for although they obviously thought they would sell enough on the A8 to be worth while developing for, I think it would be safe to assume that less time and effort would be spent on any A8 titles. They weren't exactly dire productions but they're never going to push the envelope just for the love of it, like most software houses (with a few exceptions), it was just business. Brian Jobling states that the worst sales in his history of the games business was with Fred on the A8 which "sold about 3 copies in total".

[STE'86]

ROFL "golden age" indeed

 

2 years worth of vcs port jobs that ended abruptly when Access software wrote Beachhead and changed it all.

 

halcyon days of rose coloured glasses i think.

 

Steve

[STE'86]

c64 "problem" with overscan?

 

there is no "problem". this implies its supposed to have it and it doesnt work.

It doesnt have overscan so there is no "problem"

 

just like there is no "problem" with the ataris sprite capability or sound chip.

 

Steve

Made no difference as we sold Atari ST 4-1 over Amiga until about 1990. Amiga then sold hot for maybe a year,then it was over for both mostly.

 

was i even talking about the ST?

 

Steve

[atarian63]

c64 "problem" with overscan?

 

there is no "problem". this implies its supposed to have it and it doesnt work.

It doesnt have overscan so there is no "problem"

 

just like there is no "problem" with the ataris sprite capability or sound chip.

 

Steve

Made no difference as we sold Atari ST 4-1 over Amiga until about 1990. Amiga then sold hot for maybe a year,then it was over for both mostly.

 

was i even talking about the ST?

 

Steve

Earlier in your post and again here

[atarian63]

ROFL "golden age" indeed

 

2 years worth of vcs port jobs that ended abruptly when Access software wrote Beachhead and changed it all.

 

halcyon days of rose coloured glasses i think.

 

Steve

Kind of like c64 games 82-83, Atari 2600 often looked better! ROFL at c64

[atarian63]

With Zeppelin, Brian Jobling had a set limit of roughly 3 months for each game start to finish. As they understood the market position here, they would know that A8 games sales would be significantly lower than the other platforms they developed for although they obviously thought they would sell enough on the A8 to be worth while developing for, I think it would be safe to assume that less time and effort would be spent on any A8 titles. They weren't exactly dire productions but they're never going to push the envelope just for the love of it, like most software houses (with a few exceptions), it was just business. Brian Jobling states that the worst sales in his history of the games business was with Fred on the A8 which "sold about 3 copies in total".

Yep, that's the UK. Atari was Much much larger here in the US. So for a UK co to decide that makes sense. Less effort less results (graphically)

[TMR]

poor coders blame the machine. It doesnt make even 1983 level of A8. Must either not have spent much work on A8 or lower sales expectations due to the time of release.

 

The same coder (and one with more A8 than C64 experience) produced the same game on both platforms, but one turned out better; the development time or budget are grey areas yes and Tezz's comments about Brian Jobling give one side of the story, but Zeppelin were after all a budget house and chances are that there wasn't much cash or time allocated to C64 code either. Blaming poor programming doesn't really hold because the same person wrote both versions of the game, if one version is better than the other it either implies that there was a radical shift in abilities between the two versions or there must be other factors in play.

 

To be fair I think he is saying the the C64 wasn't the sharpest pencil in the case You must admit the game is excellent! Also the c64 version is not too shabby though not as good.

 

The only real difference is that it's a shade quieter and, as i've said previously, that's not actually a bad thing and it's probably better off as a game for not being quite so vicious.

[Tezz]

The same coder (and one with more A8 than C64 experience) produced the same game on both platforms, but one turned out better; the development time or budget are grey areas yes and Tezz's comments about Brian Jobling give one side of the story, but Zeppelin were after all a budget house and chances are that there wasn't much cash or time allocated to C64 code either. Blaming poor programming doesn't really hold because the same person wrote both versions of the game, if one version is better than the other it either implies that there was a radical shift in abilities between the two versions or there must be other factors in play.

That's true yes, and the Zeppelin guys weren't in any way poor skilled but I think the point is that with the c64, you can produce something nice right out of the box whereas it's a different case entirely for the A8. For a budget title in particular it's never going to compare.

[atarian63]

The same coder (and one with more A8 than C64 experience) produced the same game on both platforms, but one turned out better; the development time or budget are grey areas yes and Tezz's comments about Brian Jobling give one side of the story, but Zeppelin were after all a budget house and chances are that there wasn't much cash or time allocated to C64 code either. Blaming poor programming doesn't really hold because the same person wrote both versions of the game, if one version is better than the other it either implies that there was a radical shift in abilities between the two versions or there must be other factors in play.

That's true yes, and the Zeppelin guys weren't in any way poor skilled but I think the point is that with the c64, you can produce something nice right out of the box whereas it's a different case entirely for the A8. For a budget title in particular it's never going to compare.

It's strictly a matter of sales and time to spend. As mentioned elsewhere here in the thread A8 was not big in the UK. so why spend the effort to do a good version? Marketing not machine.

[TMR]

That's true yes, and the Zeppelin guys weren't in any way poor skilled but I think the point is that with the c64, you can produce something nice right out of the box whereas it's a different case entirely for the A8. For a budget title in particular it's never going to compare.

 

And if one machine is supposed to be more powerful, shouldn't that be the one that produces something nice right out of the box...?

 

It's strictly a matter of sales and time to spend. As mentioned elsewhere here in the thread A8 was not big in the UK. so why spend the effort to do a good version? Marketing not machine.

 

As i said, we really don't know if the A8 got the poopy end of the stick as regards development cycles at Zeppelin; certainly in the cases where the back engines were directly ported rather than coded from scratch it should be a significantly shorter job to produce the A8 version anyway (assuming that's the order all of the games in question were written in) so that leaves more allocated time to work on cosmetic details.

[atarian63]

That's true yes, and the Zeppelin guys weren't in any way poor skilled but I think the point is that with the c64, you can produce something nice right out of the box whereas it's a different case entirely for the A8. For a budget title in particular it's never going to compare.

 

And if one machine is supposed to be more powerful, shouldn't that be the one that produces something nice right out of the box...?

 

It's strictly a matter of sales and time to spend. As mentioned elsewhere here in the thread A8 was not big in the UK. so why spend the effort to do a good version? Marketing not machine.

 

As i said, we really don't know if the A8 got the poopy end of the stick as regards development cycles at Zeppelin; certainly in the cases where the back engines were directly ported rather than coded from scratch it should be a significantly shorter job to produce the A8 version anyway (assuming that's the order all of the games in question were written in) so that leaves more allocated time to work on cosmetic details.

Time involved to do the job has nothing to do with machine capabilities.

A precision device needs more care and work, where the cheap knockoff is easy.

[popmilo]

...I never liked Ikari Warriors C64 version, has bad colors and playability. Instead I prefer the ROAR game with best set of colors and mixing hi-res with med-res graphics. Same type of game.

What is ROAR ? game on A8 or C64 or some other 8bit beast ?

 

ROAR or TANK (this is the arcade name) for C64. It's a great ikari warrior type game but with a tank with cooperative multiplayer. Really is fantastic and it's a great game on C64, mixing hi amd med res. Use all color along the different stages.

 

I like the classic sound of Patton movie in this game. My favorite vertical scrolling game of all times.

I found it as 'TANK'. Played it for two minutes maybe.... In my opinion there is no chance its better then Ikari Warriors in any way...

One enemy soldier attacking me ? badly drawn. Running away from me ... Tank has machine gun with range of maybe 30-40 pixels.. I had to corner him against the rock and then kill him (kinda iteresting detail, put a smile on my face )

Ran into a tank battle was fast and stupid...

 

Sorry man, can not see anything good in it...

 

Please, try Ikari Warriors (UK version) with a friend, play long enough to reach places where there are two tanks, get in them (hold fire while close to the tank) and make mayhem in duet

[emkay]

As i said, we really don't know if the A8 got the poopy end of the stick as regards development cycles at Zeppelin; certainly in the cases where the back engines were directly ported rather than coded from scratch it should be a significantly shorter job to produce the A8 version anyway (assuming that's the order all of the games in question were written in) so that leaves more allocated time to work on cosmetic details.

 

I wonder why this discussion never ends. Even by the same people.

 

It's a clear fact why the cheaper games look better on the C64. Coders have a "style" of a straight logic to handle graphics, scrolling and Sprites, and not to forget the mix of colours and hires...

 

If people know about that, the dedicated game is there.

 

To make superior games like "Rescue on Fractalus" where the C64 can get in no way, is simply not possible at a "budget" budget

 

What makes me wonder also: Archer McLean seem to be a fan of the A8 back in that time. Reaching the level of International Karate and Drop Zone, why did he just stop producing anything for the A8 then?

 

Lucasfilm Games, well it's also clear. The money from Atari was gone, so the interest was gone.

 

Seeing the games of today, Atari and Lucasfilm Games did the right way, but Ego 3D was not good enough on other common 8-bits, so interest turned into the scrolling and sprites thing for a long time span.

 

So the C64 won based on more than the "cheap" game facts.

 

Weirdness at Atari in the early 80s

Very good launch of the C64 by commodore

 

.... were only the starting factors

 

and it ended in the better spread of the C64 and the bad software support for the A8 ...

 

In some cases, the A8 coders suffer by the fact that "easily done" code on the A8 looks like garbage. So, possibly they did already more than needed on the C64 to have the game looking like C64(which as the wrong way in every time)

Doing so, and reading what "poor" stuff they created, surely made them turning away from the A8 forever.

 

But It was so easy.... Follow the style of the Lucasfilm Games, would have brought more success to the A8, more spread and more people buying those games.

 

Knowing that games like "Castle Master" , "Stunt Car Racer", and so on, on the A8 would have turned into real playable and colourful games, well....<shakes head>

[Heaven/TQA]

why did Archer stop producing a8 games... let me think... maybe because it did not paid his rent? Archer was not a back-room homebrew coder...

[Rockford]

...I never liked Ikari Warriors C64 version, has bad colors and playability. Instead I prefer the ROAR game with best set of colors and mixing hi-res with med-res graphics. Same type of game.

What is ROAR ? game on A8 or C64 or some other 8bit beast ?

 

ROAR or TANK (this is the arcade name) for C64. It's a great ikari warrior type game but with a tank with cooperative multiplayer. Really is fantastic and it's a great game on C64, mixing hi amd med res. Use all color along the different stages.

 

I like the classic sound of Patton movie in this game. My favorite vertical scrolling game of all times.

I found it as 'TANK'. Played it for two minutes maybe.... In my opinion there is no chance its better then Ikari Warriors in any way...

One enemy soldier attacking me ? badly drawn. Running away from me ... Tank has machine gun with range of maybe 30-40 pixels.. I had to corner him against the rock and then kill him (kinda iteresting detail, put a smile on my face )

Ran into a tank battle was fast and stupid...

 

Sorry man, can not see anything good in it...

 

Please, try Ikari Warriors (UK version) with a friend, play long enough to reach places where there are two tanks, get in them (hold fire while close to the tank) and make mayhem in duet

I second that opinion, TANK isn't nearly as good as IKARI WARRIORS.

[emkay]

why did Archer stop producing a8 games... let me think... maybe because it did not paid his rent? Archer was not a back-room homebrew coder...

 

 

I know.

 

But, except beeing a professional racer, driving a sports car "for fun", who is expecting it brings money?

If you want to earn money with 330Horse Powers, you'd better buy a Truck

[STE'86]

ok fair enuf apart from the following usual suspects:

 

ROF, Koronis rift, ballblazer, eidolon, dropzone, ik, star raiders 2

 

what are the other pieces of mindblowing software that was available?

 

why dont u show the rest of us what we have obviously blinked and missed?

 

go on... give us some hard evidence to look at, instead of this "could have, should have and golden age" rubbish

 

Steve

 

ps I still wasnt referring to the St i was referring to the a8 in the previous post. i was obviously just being too nice and subtle.

[TMR]

Time involved to do the job has nothing to do with machine capabilities.

A precision device needs more care and work, where the cheap knockoff is easy.

 

It has everything to do with them if the machines are essentially having to "carry" the programmer because there wasn't much time allocated to the project; in all of the cases we're talking about, the "cheap knockoff" as you so delicately call it is actually proving itself the more capable machine in that respect. At this point in time we don't even know which order some of the titles were developed in, if the C64 or A8 was lead machine (Ian Copeland started out as an A8 coder so it follows that he could have developed the game logic there rather than the C64) so some of these might well be A8 to C64 ports and other C64 to A8, the inability of the programmer simply can't write them all off wholesale.

[AtariNerd]

The odd thing is, that this thread probably includes more jabs than the entirety of all in-era usenet and BBS postings.

 

I'd prefer people slag and snark behind closed doors within their respected fan-forums and just try to be constructive and respectful where one is posting as by all means a guest, but I guess there are some advantages to seeing the thought process out in the open and fielding the questions and misunderstandings brought up. Since there is so much overlap(I personally have owned Apple, Atari, Commodore, RadioShack, plus many consoles), I guess it's an inevitable fact that there will be fringing.

 

This thread is ridiculous, though.

 

Well, at least it keeps it organized.

 

Will, it get to page 512?

 

(Arm is broken, forgive any typos)

Edited October 10, 2009 by AtariNerd

[TMR]

It's a clear fact why the cheaper games look better on the C64. Coders have a "style" of a straight logic to handle graphics, scrolling and Sprites, and not to forget the mix of colours and hires...

 

Cheap, cheap, cheap... why is Atarians sound like budgies when talking about the C64?!

 

To make superior games like "Rescue on Fractalus" where the C64 can get in no way, is simply not possible at a "budget" budget

[/quote[

 

And RoF was written for the C64 and more than playable in it's own right. Yes, it's better on the A8 but the C64 version isn't a disaster. And as you say, there were games like The Sentinel, Stunt Car Racer and so on that were actually more complex entities on the C64 than RoF but also playable.

 

What makes me wonder also: Archer McLean seem to be a fan of the A8 back in that time. Reaching the level of International Karate and Drop Zone, why did he just stop producing anything for the A8 then?

 

You answered that yourself previously, he is one of the few cases where a programmer transitioned because that's where the money was.

 

Seeing the games of today, Atari and Lucasfilm Games did the right way, but Ego 3D was not good enough on other common 8-bits, so interest turned into the scrolling and sprites thing for a long time span.

 

The 3D games are there on the other 8-bits as well and some of them are excellent (the Geoff Crammond titles on the C64, all manner of stuff on the Spectrum and it's hard to mention 3D without talking about Elite on the BBC Micro at some point) but because none of the 8-bit generation machines were really powerful enough including the A8 for 3D, they were always going to be a niche genre; the 16-bit computers made 3D more commonplace but the market wasn't demanding 3D and the Megadrive for example reflects that by being a 2D workhorse of a machine.

 

But It was so easy.... Follow the style of the Lucasfilm Games, would have brought more success to the A8, more spread and more people buying those games.

 

Except of course it wasn't possible to run companies like that in the 1980's, what Lucasfilm did was a niche market and there wasn't a lot of room for more players doing something similar; Lucasfilm themselves changed direction, coming up with the SCUMM system and the first couple of games to use it and what evolved from that has proved far more enduring.

[TMR]

ok fair enuf apart from the following usual suspects:

 

ROF, Koronis rift, ballblazer, eidolon, dropzone, ik, star raiders 2

 

what are the other pieces of mindblowing software that was available?

 

Elektraglide and Mercenary are the other two that regularly appear.

 

go on... give us some hard evidence to look at, instead of this "could have, should have and golden age" rubbish

 

i've just had a thought actually... Ballblazer, Rescue on Fractalus, Koronis Rift, The Eidolon, Elektraglide, International Karate and Star Raiders 2 were all published either on the wire or after the 1984/5 cut-off for the "golden age"; that only leaves Dropzone (and the pirates who had previews of Behind Jaggi Lines (the RoF dev name) and Ballblazer) within that period.