Atari v Commodore

[emkay]

It's a clear fact why the cheaper games look better on the C64. Coders have a "style" of a straight logic to handle graphics, scrolling and Sprites, and not to forget the mix of colours and hires...

 

Cheap, cheap, cheap... why is Atarians sound like budgies when talking about the C64?!

 

 

Because it is.

 

 

To make superior games like "Rescue on Fractalus" where the C64 can get in no way, is simply not possible at a "budget" budget

 

And RoF was written for the C64 and more than playable in it's own right. Yes, it's better on the A8 but the C64 version isn't a disaster. And as you say, there were games like The Sentinel, Stunt Car Racer and so on that were actually more complex entities on the C64 than RoF but also playable.

 

 

It's a kind of definition. Rescue on Fractalus wasn't "good title" on the C64 even after optimizing it there.

 

What makes me wonder also: Archer McLean seem to be a fan of the A8 back in that time. Reaching the level of International Karate and Drop Zone, why did he just stop producing anything for the A8 then?

 

You answered that yourself previously, he is one of the few cases where a programmer transitioned because that's where the money was.

 

You oversee the "fan" writings of him, depending on Drop Zone?

 

 

Seeing the games of today, Atari and Lucasfilm Games did the right way, but Ego 3D was not good enough on other common 8-bits, so interest turned into the scrolling and sprites thing for a long time span.

 

The 3D games are there on the other 8-bits as well and some of them are excellent (the Geoff Crammond titles on the C64, all manner of stuff on the Spectrum and it's hard to mention 3D without talking about Elite on the BBC Micro at some point) but because none of the 8-bit generation machines were really powerful enough including the A8 for 3D, they were always going to be a niche genre; the 16-bit computers made 3D more commonplace but the market wasn't demanding 3D and the Megadrive for example reflects that by being a 2D workhorse of a machine.

 

You only write about what was obvious there. But it was a more complex thing about what was there hardwarewise, what the coders were able to do and what people expected.

 

Since the release of Wolf 3D the whole gamesworld was turned upside down. Or in other words: "the broken progress of 3D development has been broken"

Today, people know about 2D and 3D view games, they mostly prefer the 3D view.

 

 

But It was so easy.... Follow the style of the Lucasfilm Games, would have brought more success to the A8, more spread and more people buying those games.

 

Except of course it wasn't possible to run companies like that in the 1980's, what Lucasfilm did was a niche market and there wasn't a lot of room for more players doing something similar; Lucasfilm themselves changed direction, coming up with the SCUMM system and the first couple of games to use it and what evolved from that has proved far more enduring.

 

It was pressed into a niche. Just like the A8 was underrated because no one had known the machine, when it was shippped outside the US.

And, if no one knows about good 3D games , or is watching them on slow computers, 3D games were underrated in that time aswell.

[STE'86]

 

It was pressed into a niche. Just like the A8 was underrated because no one had known the machine, when it was shippped outside the US.

And, if no one knows about good 3D games , or is watching them on slow computers, 3D games were underrated in that time aswell.

 

ROFL are u serious? Elite was one of the biggest sellers of the early to mid 80's so i would hardly call 3D games "underrated"

 

Also microprose in the mid to late 80s wowed the whole market with Gunship and Stealth fighter and pretty much cornered the whole genre.

 

u just seem to ignore these things because they werent produced on the a8.

 

3D games didnt cease to exist when Lucas pulled the plug on A8 development, however much u would like it to be true.

 

also i would just like to point out that the "Just like the A8 was underrated because no one had known the machine, when it was shippped outside the US" statement is flawed too isnt it? being as tho about 50% of your "usual suspect" top atari games were done in the uk?

 

Steve

[emkay]

It was pressed into a niche. Just like the A8 was underrated because no one had known the machine, when it was shippped outside the US.

And, if no one knows about good 3D games , or is watching them on slow computers, 3D games were underrated in that time aswell.

 

ROFL are u serious? Elite was one of the biggest sellers of the early to mid 80's so i would hardly call 3D games "underrated"

 

 

Elite was a 3D vector based simulation.... unbelievable slow on the C64. Not a demonstration of fast 3D ego view playability.

 

Also microprose in the mid to late 80s wowed the whole market with Gunship and Stealth fighter and pretty much cornered the whole genre.

 

you just seem to ignore these things because they werent produced on the a8.

 

 

I wonder why C64 users call interactive slideshows "games".

 

 

3D games didnt cease to exist when Lucas pulled the plug on A8 development, however much u would like it to be true.

 

also i would just like to point out that the "Just like the A8 was underrated because no one had known the machine, when it was shippped outside the US" statement is flawed too isnt it? being as tho about 50% of your "usual suspect" top atari games were done in the uk?

 

Steve

 

The XL was there in 1983. In 1985 no one .... i repeat.... NO ONE.... friends , mates, colleges whoever.... did hear from Computers made by Atari. The Atari exists since 1978 and was officially sold since 1979....

A computer does not outlive, if only insider know about the machine and only insiders do some coding there. The 800/XL/XE had it's best time in 1985... 8 years after releasing the hardware for the first time.

 

What to tell more?

[frenchman]

Wasn't Elite based on that Atari 800 'killer app' Star Raiders from 1979?

 

Actually, some more 3D classics on A8, Capture the Flag (split screen, two player), Wayout, FSII, Dimension X, Rainbow Walker, The Halley Project, Master of the Lamps, Infiltrator

 

Also a few Microprose classics F15, Mig Alley Ace, Solo Flight, Spitfire Ace.

 

 

A lovely A8 isometric game is Airball, came out far later in 87/88, written by UKs Microdeal and cannot be found on C64?

Edited October 10, 2009 by frenchman

[TMR]

It's a kind of definition. Rescue on Fractalus wasn't "good title" on the C64 even after optimizing it there.

 

You're looking at it with hindsight and forgetting that opinion at the time would have been different to yours, so i'll use frenchman's trick bringing in a magazine review; Zzap! 64 gave Rescue on Fractalus 91% (September 1985 issue), with the reviewers commenting that the C64 version "has really marvellous 3D graphics and you get a good, realistic feel as you zoom down a canyon" and that the "Atari legend has at last been converted to the 64 and it's a perfect copy too". The latter quote was from Julian Rignall, who frenchman has, if memory serves, previously quoted as saying the A8 was better than the C64 - draws his opinions on that sort of matter into question somewhat, doesn't it...

 

Yes, the A8 version was better but the C64 one isn't bad for that and more than held it's own as a game at the time of release, only players who had extensive exposure to both versions would've even noticed the difference.

 

You oversee the "fan" writings of him, depending on Drop Zone?

 

Sorry, i didn't understand your question... what "fan" writings and what dependency?

 

The 3D games are there on the other 8-bits as well and some of them are excellent (the Geoff Crammond titles on the C64, all manner of stuff on the Spectrum and it's hard to mention 3D without talking about Elite on the BBC Micro at some point) but because none of the 8-bit generation machines were really powerful enough including the A8 for 3D, they were always going to be a niche genre; the 16-bit computers made 3D more commonplace but the market wasn't demanding 3D and the Megadrive for example reflects that by being a 2D workhorse of a machine.

 

You only write about what was obvious there. But it was a more complex thing about what was there hardwarewise, what the coders were able to do and what people expected.

 

The expectation of players can be judged from what the market was offering them, if everyone had been screaming for 3D there'd simply be significantly more 3D games from that era and there wasn't because that level of demand simply didn't exist; if it had, all the buck-making companies who knocked out sub-standard cloned products on every machine would've been diving in with both feet as well, but they were too busy copying the 2D stuff because that was what they saw as popular with punters and therefore where the money was.

 

The arcades of the mid 1980's were a mixed bag too, for every 3D extravaganza like Space Harrier or Afterburner, there was an R-Type, Gradius or Thundercross; coin-op hardware is expensive to manufacture and relies entirely on the take-up of the players to justify it's existence, if 2D games like Salamander or Darius had flopped, the companies would've moved exclusively to 3D and that didn't happen until significantly later.

[Bryan]

This thread has inspired me to move my C-64 up from the basement and into my computer room right next to my Atari 800. Why fight about which one was better when you can enjoy both? I'm not a computer purist, there are some games I like better on my Apple IIe, some on the 8-bit, and some on the C-64. I can't say that there's one single computer that can handle all my classic gaming needs.

 

Tempest

 

I also dragged out my 64 and set it up during the course of this thread. I am a lifelong Atari fan but I can't get behind the ridiculous arguments flying around in here.

 

The Atari has 256 colors per line and 2000+ sprites if only a talented, hard working coder would come along and show us the way...

 

It feels more like Fanboys vs Coders.

[Allas]

...I never liked Ikari Warriors C64 version, has bad colors and playability. Instead I prefer the ROAR game with best set of colors and mixing hi-res with med-res graphics. Same type of game.

What is ROAR ? game on A8 or C64 or some other 8bit beast ?

 

ROAR or TANK (this is the arcade name) for C64. It's a great ikari warrior type game but with a tank with cooperative multiplayer. Really is fantastic and it's a great game on C64, mixing hi amd med res. Use all color along the different stages.

 

I like the classic sound of Patton movie in this game. My favorite vertical scrolling game of all times.

I found it as 'TANK'. Played it for two minutes maybe.... In my opinion there is no chance its better then Ikari Warriors in any way...

One enemy soldier attacking me ? badly drawn. Running away from me ... Tank has machine gun with range of maybe 30-40 pixels.. I had to corner him against the rock and then kill him (kinda iteresting detail, put a smile on my face )

Ran into a tank battle was fast and stupid...

 

Sorry man, can not see anything good in it...

 

Please, try Ikari Warriors (UK version) with a friend, play long enough to reach places where there are two tanks, get in them (hold fire while close to the tank) and make mayhem in duet

 

You have not played enough time. Initially the tank have very reduce amount of poewr, more gorup of letters you take, more powerful your tank will be. Soon you will find:

 

- Lots of enemy atacking you. Human enemies do little damage, the most dangerous enemy are the tanks or grenades.

- Range machine gun will increase with the letter bonus you caught.

- On multiplayer mode, one player move the tank and use the machine gun. Other player take control of the bombs with his own movement.

- Second world war is always an interesting topic, it's a long way to reach the final Nazi barracks.

 

I played both games and finished both. So, maybe it's a matter of taste.

[Tempest]

Maybe someone in this thread can answer me this question. Why are all the late late A8 releases beige (tan?)? Seriously! I understand the limitations of the A8 and that they had to go monochrome for the higher graphics modes, but why beige? They all look very washed out when they do that.

 

Tempest

[Allas]

Maybe someone in this thread can answer me this question. Why are all the late late A8 releases beige (tan?)? Seriously! I understand the limitations of the A8 and that they had to go monochrome for the higher graphics modes, but why beige? They all look very washed out when they do that.

 

Tempest

 

This was answered before. Because, most of the production on those years are polish productions, and most of them only have monocrome TVs.

[Tempest]

Maybe someone in this thread can answer me this question. Why are all the late late A8 releases beige (tan?)? Seriously! I understand the limitations of the A8 and that they had to go monochrome for the higher graphics modes, but why beige? They all look very washed out when they do that.

 

Tempest

 

This was answered before. Because, most of the production on those years are polish productions, and most of them only have monocrome TVs.

Ah. Interesting. I never would have guessed.

 

Tempest

[emkay]

You're looking at it with hindsight and forgetting that opinion at the time would have been different to yours, so i'll use frenchman's trick bringing in a magazine review; Zzap! 64 gave Rescue on Fractalus 91% (September 1985 issue), with the reviewers commenting that the C64 version "has really marvellous 3D graphics and you get a good, realistic feel as you zoom down a canyon" and that the "Atari legend has at last been converted to the 64 and it's a perfect copy too". The latter quote was from Julian Rignall, who frenchman has, if memory serves, previously quoted as saying the A8 was better than the C64 - draws his opinions on that sort of matter into question somewhat, doesn't it...

 

 

It's intruiging how meanings get biased. It is easy to say "C64 has marvellous 3D graphics" , if you put the pre-sentence "Even due to the slow CPU , " in everyones mind . Just like declaring -10 as zero, to have one reaching -10 to have him zero reached.

It also shows the oxymoron. "RoF" has been converted from the A8 in a perfect copy".

Seeing the "Turrican is not possible" argues of C64 freaks and according to it, I say "Rescue on Fractalus" has not been converted yet, and in no way it is a perfect copy.

 

Yes, the A8 version was better but the C64 one isn't bad for that and more than held it's own as a game at the time of release, only players who had extensive exposure to both versions would've even noticed the difference.

 

Yeah... People who have seen the C64 may have thought "ok"

But... People who have seen the A8 version wanted more.

 

 

You oversee the "fan" writings of him, depending on Drop Zone?

 

Sorry, i didn't understand your question... what "fan" writings and what dependency?

 

 

Where McLean compared the C64 and the 800...

 

The expectation of players can be judged from what the market was offering them, if everyone had been screaming for 3D there'd simply be significantly more 3D games from that era and there wasn't because that level of demand simply didn't exist; if it had, all the buck-making companies who knocked out sub-standard cloned products on every machine would've been diving in with both feet as well, but they were too busy copying the 2D stuff because that was what they saw as popular with punters and therefore where the money was.

 

 

Believe me. Depending on the spread of the C64 AND, If it had a way better CPU, 3D games would have become really wanted, even in the mid 80s.

People who had a C64 didn't expect that ego-perspective games can run much better on other machines.

[atarian63]

Time involved to do the job has nothing to do with machine capabilities.

A precision device needs more care and work, where the cheap knockoff is easy.

 

It has everything to do with them if the machines are essentially having to "carry" the programmer because there wasn't much time allocated to the project; in all of the cases we're talking about, the "cheap knockoff" as you so delicately call it is actually proving itself the more capable machine in that respect. At this point in time we don't even know which order some of the titles were developed in, if the C64 or A8 was lead machine (Ian Copeland started out as an A8 coder so it follows that he could have developed the game logic there rather than the C64) so some of these might well be A8 to C64 ports and other C64 to A8, the inability of the programmer simply can't write them all off wholesale.

Sure you can for the previously mentioned reasons.

[Barnacle boy]

(See Barnacle? Works both ways

LOL. I totally missed that the first time around. Nipped that one right in the bud!

 

 

 

Tau Ceti was the first time I saw sprites in the border... fairly sure that was 1986.

 

And it looks like it beat Terra Cresta to the punch too, as Zzap reviewed it in issue 16, whereas Terra Cresta wasn't reviewed until issue 22.

 

 

 

Incidentally, the first game I encountered that used sprites in the border was Terra Cresta in '86. I wonder if there were any before that...

Terra Cresta was the one that springs to mind with me too as the first pro commercial game i saw with the borders off. we were used to that by then ofc on the cnet circuit. but it was quite a buzz none the less the see "real" programmers following the demo lead.

 

It's funny, but back when I first played Terra Cresta, I hadn't seen any demos showing sprites in border and so had no idea it was possible. I still remember the moment when I suddenly realised that the score display was positioned too high up to be in the normal screen area. It was a real WTF? experience. Like, wha...? How the hell did it get there? I even stuck my finger on it and reset the c64 to make sure I wasn't imagining things.

 

 

 

Besides, its completely redundant to show examples of some bad C64 games (especially games where there`s no A8 version to compare with), because even me! could easily show examples of hundreds or thousands of bad A8 games. And while you are always asking Rockford if he hasn`t learned his lesson(s) yet, I could ask you the same - because you are showing such examples of bad C64 games over and over again, allthough you were already told that this is nonsense and redundant...

An excellent point, well made!

[Rockford]

Maybe someone in this thread can answer me this question. Why are all the late late A8 releases beige (tan?)? Seriously! I understand the limitations of the A8 and that they had to go monochrome for the higher graphics modes, but why beige? They all look very washed out when they do that.

 

Tempest

 

This was answered before. Because, most of the production on those years are polish productions, and most of them only have monocrome TVs.

Ah. Interesting. I never would have guessed.

 

Tempest

Well, it's not that simple I'm afraid. For example, Who Dares Wins II, 180, Feud, YOGI BEAR & FRIENDS etc. weren't made by polish programmers, and yet, all of them are beige.

[STE'86]

Wasn't Elite based on that Atari 800 'killer app' Star Raiders from 1979?

 

Actually, some more 3D classics on A8, Capture the Flag (split screen, two player), Wayout, FSII, Dimension X, Rainbow Walker, The Halley Project, Master of the Lamps, Infiltrator

 

Also a few Microprose classics F15, Mig Alley Ace, Solo Flight, Spitfire Ace.

 

 

A lovely A8 isometric game is Airball, came out far later in 87/88, written by UKs Microdeal and cannot be found on C64?

 

elite based on star raiders? no not really. its a 3d trading and combat game in vectors. not a sprite based 3d shoot em up.

 

and before u shout, i too have played all the 3d "star raiders" shooters from the period including sentinel and starmaster so i know what they are and what they arent.

 

ditto with your "classic" microprose games. i too own all of them and they are basically crap. and they are SPRITE based predominantly. MP didnt do full vector stuff still gunship. thats when they got to be "classic"

 

Steve

[atarian63]

You're looking at it with hindsight and forgetting that opinion at the time would have been different to yours, so i'll use frenchman's trick bringing in a magazine review; Zzap! 64 gave Rescue on Fractalus 91% (September 1985 issue), with the reviewers commenting that the C64 version "has really marvellous 3D graphics and you get a good, realistic feel as you zoom down a canyon" and that the "Atari legend has at last been converted to the 64 and it's a perfect copy too". The latter quote was from Julian Rignall, who frenchman has, if memory serves, previously quoted as saying the A8 was better than the C64 - draws his opinions on that sort of matter into question somewhat, doesn't it...

 

 

It's intruiging how meanings get biased. It is easy to say "C64 has marvellous 3D graphics" , if you put the pre-sentence "Even due to the slow CPU , " in everyones mind . Just like declaring -10 as zero, to have one reaching -10 to have him zero reached.

It also shows the oxymoron. "RoF" has been converted from the A8 in a perfect copy".

Seeing the "Turrican is not possible" argues of C64 freaks and according to it, I say "Rescue on Fractalus" has not been converted yet, and in no way it is a perfect copy.

 

Yes, the A8 version was better but the C64 one isn't bad for that and more than held it's own as a game at the time of release, only players who had extensive exposure to both versions would've even noticed the difference.

 

Yeah... People who have seen the C64 may have thought "ok"

But... People who have seen the A8 version wanted more.

 

 

You oversee the "fan" writings of him, depending on Drop Zone?

 

Sorry, i didn't understand your question... what "fan" writings and what dependency?

 

 

Where McLean compared the C64 and the 800...

 

The expectation of players can be judged from what the market was offering them, if everyone had been screaming for 3D there'd simply be significantly more 3D games from that era and there wasn't because that level of demand simply didn't exist; if it had, all the buck-making companies who knocked out sub-standard cloned products on every machine would've been diving in with both feet as well, but they were too busy copying the 2D stuff because that was what they saw as popular with punters and therefore where the money was.

 

 

Believe me. Depending on the spread of the C64 AND, If it had a way better CPU, 3D games would have become really wanted, even in the mid 80s.

People who had a C64 didn't expect that ego-perspective games can run much better on other machines.

All good points!

[STE'86]

mostly a load of cobblers really seeing as how both the bbc and the spectrum had fantastic full 3d stuff.

 

even filled vector in the spectrums case. so the c64 users were well aware of faster 3d processing.

 

and if all u atari fanboys rated the lucas stuff so highly how come they ceased development?

 

sales must have been crap to do that.

 

Elite never seemed to have those problems, it has been converted to every single major computer format.

 

oh except yours. obviously.

 

Steve

[frenchman]

 

elite based on star raiders? no not really. its a 3d trading and combat game in vectors. not a sprite based 3d shoot em up.

 

and before u shout, i too have played all the 3d "star raiders" shooters from the period including sentinel and starmaster so i know what they are and what they arent.

 

ditto with your "classic" microprose games. i too own all of them and they are basically crap. and they are SPRITE based predominantly. MP didnt do full vector stuff still gunship. thats when they got to be "classic"

 

Steve

 

superstars never shout, Elite is a Star Raiders inspired game, (Retro Gamer issue 47, interview with both Bell and Braben)

 

As for Microprose titles being crap, you stick to your Mastertronic titles and be happy. Call yourself a gamer?

[atariksi]

c64 "problem" with overscan?

 

there is no "problem". this implies its supposed to have it and it doesnt work.

It doesnt have overscan so there is no "problem"

 

just like there is no "problem" with the ataris sprite capability or sound chip.

 

Steve

 

The context of discussion is implementation of overscan on C64 (whatever form it takes-- imitation, simulation, etc.). So it's problematic compared to machines where it's built in like on Amiga and Atari 800.

 

I don't think that analogy matches either.

 

imititation, simulation...problematic compared to machines where its built in...

 

using your criteria, it seems a pretty close analogy to me

 

Steve

 

Atari sprites and sound chip work as they are supposed to. If you had to simulate the C64 sprites on A8, that would be problematic. And doing overscan is problematic on C64 and Atari ST.

[atariksi]

Maybe someone in this thread can answer me this question. Why are all the late late A8 releases beige (tan?)? Seriously! I understand the limitations of the A8 and that they had to go monochrome for the higher graphics modes, but why beige? They all look very washed out when they do that.

 

Tempest

 

This was answered before. Because, most of the production on those years are polish productions, and most of them only have monocrome TVs.

 

I guess they aren't throwing away color TVs in Poland as they are in the USA. I see at least two lying in the garbage every day.

[atariksi]

This thread has inspired me to move my C-64 up from the basement and into my computer room right next to my Atari 800. Why fight about which one was better when you can enjoy both? I'm not a computer purist, there are some games I like better on my Apple IIe, some on the 8-bit, and some on the C-64. I can't say that there's one single computer that can handle all my classic gaming needs.

 

Tempest

 

I also dragged out my 64 and set it up during the course of this thread. I am a lifelong Atari fan but I can't get behind the ridiculous arguments flying around in here.

 

The Atari has 256 colors per line and 2000+ sprites if only a talented, hard working coder would come along and show us the way...

 

It feels more like Fanboys vs Coders.

 

Don't remember reading that line, but 2000+ sprites is no myth. And if you consider that GTIA graphics 9 gives you ability to have every pixel be a different color, you essentially have 8-bit depth. So I think you need to dig out some more A8s from your basement/garage and test these things out. I take more logical approach-- that if it can be rationally established to be do-able, I don't need to try it out. If I had to try out every algorithm ever for A8 and C64, it would take more than a lifetime. And then what if some other platform fan comes along and say "I can do this on the Spectrum", can you? Then you will waste time on that platform.

[STE'86]

 

elite based on star raiders? no not really. its a 3d trading and combat game in vectors. not a sprite based 3d shoot em up.

 

and before u shout, i too have played all the 3d "star raiders" shooters from the period including sentinel and starmaster so i know what they are and what they arent.

 

ditto with your "classic" microprose games. i too own all of them and they are basically crap. and they are SPRITE based predominantly. MP didnt do full vector stuff still gunship. thats when they got to be "classic"

 

Steve

 

superstars never shout, Elite is a Star Raiders inspired game, (Retro Gamer issue 47, interview with both Bell and Braben)

 

As for Microprose titles being crap, you stick to your Mastertronic titles and be happy. Call yourself a gamer?

 

ah u do like to misquote dont u?

 

i replied that all the "classic" MP titles (your words) u mentioned were crap. i know they are crap, i own virtually the entire MP catalogue from 83 to about 91. their flightsims prior to gunship were in no way cutting edge and were nothing more than "green strip, blue strip and a couple of sprites" AFTER gunship however it was a very different matter.

 

would u like me to post some screenshots of your "classic" MP games to remind u how bad they looked? Rockfords stuff looks cutting edge in comparison

 

Steve

 

edit and i'm still waiting for all these awesome screenshots of classic games on the a8 that AREN'T the usual 8 suspects.

Edited October 10, 2009 by STE'86

[atariksi]

Andreas..

Wow, thats a really uninformed and totally incorrect view. It would be hard to be much more wrong than that.

The statement is very correct and 82/84 or so. and yes the c64 stuff basically does not count due to progression and tricks etc. Had atari dev continued obviously it would have been much better. The public though is a but dull and chose the inferior product due only to price.

You may not like "over and over again" but when certain c64'rs do not learn repitition is necessary.

 

It's more marketing (lower prices) and propaganda that promoted the C64. The best product doesn't always get the bigger market share even now. And add to the fact that Atari products were targetted to low-RAM based machines and non-GTIA.

[TMR]

It's intruiging how meanings get biased. It is easy to say "C64 has marvellous 3D graphics" , if you put the pre-sentence "Even due to the slow CPU , " in everyones mind . Just like declaring -10 as zero, to have one reaching -10 to have him zero reached.

 

Except the review didn't say that and the reviewers obviously didn't consider the refresh speed a deal breaker as regards the actual gameplay. At the time when people were less likely to sit down and seriously analyse the two versions like we've been doing here; RoF on a technical level plays to the A8's strengths in a similar way to how Dropzone does, but in both cases the C64 still managed a good facsimile to the point it impressed contemporary game reviewers and plays well as a game in it's own right.

 

Seeing the "Turrican is not possible" argues of C64 freaks and according to it, I say "Rescue on Fractalus" has not been converted yet, and in no way it is a perfect copy.

 

That analogy doesn't work; RoF exists on both and one is a bit better than the other but they're both considered good, Turrican exists just on the one machine and the previews and attempts we've seen to date at converting it get anywhere near to the object counts that the original manages.

 

Where McLean compared the C64 and the 800...

 

Yes, i remember reading it in Zzap! back in the day; he was an Atari coder who pretty much turned to the C64 for the money so, with all due respect to him (and he's a lovely bloke, i got to chat to him for around ten minutes at Retro Reunited when someone brought him over to meet me... and that in itself was a truly surreal experience!), the age of the quote alone doesn't convert it from essentially biased opinion into fact. If you want to write off what PeteD, andym00 or i say because of bias can't do that without ignoring the opinions of the RoF team, Archer McLean and any other coder who expressed a preference back in the day as well.

 

Believe me. Depending on the spread of the C64 AND, If it had a way better CPU, 3D games would have become really wanted, even in the mid 80s.

People who had a C64 didn't expect that ego-perspective games can run much better on other machines.

 

i can't believe that because it doesn't explain why 3D games failed to materialise in significantly greater numbers on any other platform at the time; every machine had a selection of 3D games that were exceptional (including the C64, despite what you personally may think of the games themselves) but none of them developed a large demand for further titles. Even during the 16-bit era the demand wasn't all encompassing despite the hardware being better suited (ask people which Amiga or ST games they remember, you won't just get 3D title after 3D title and most of the games that get repeated over and over are 2D) and, as you pointed out, it wasn't until we got quite a way down the hardware timeline to the point where a PC could handle Wolfenstein 3D where the interest was truly kindled.

[STE'86]

 

Atari sprites and sound chip work as they are supposed to. If you had to simulate the C64 sprites on A8, that would be problematic. And doing overscan is problematic on C64 and Atari ST.

 

ah but u do have to simulate 64 sprites don't u?

thats been the problem for 25 years. and the main reason there have been about 4 decent games in that time.

 

Steve