emkay Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 mostly a load of cobblers really seeing as how both the bbc and the spectrum had fantastic full 3d stuff. even filled vector in the spectrums case. so the c64 users were well aware of faster 3d processing. Some C64 users seem to be open minded even in the 80s? Or is it the fact that everyone knowed the speccy in the UK? So it was like some hit in the face, thus not to oversee? and if all u atari fanboys rated the lucas stuff so highly how come they ceased development? A Song from an old swedish pop group says "Money, Money, Money .... " sales must have been crap to do that. the cause was already discussed aswell ... Elite never seemed to have those problems, it has been converted to every single major computer format. oh except yours. obviously. A big loss for the 80s and for computerhistory to miss the game on the most relevant 8 bit for this type of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 i can't believe that because it doesn't explain why 3D games failed to materialise in significantly greater numbers on any other platform at the time; every machine had a selection of 3D games that were exceptional (including the C64, despite what you personally may think of the games themselves) but none of them developed a large demand for further titles. Even during the 16-bit era the demand wasn't all encompassing despite the hardware being better suited (ask people which Amiga or ST games they remember, you won't just get 3D title after 3D title and most of the games that get repeated over and over are 2D) and, as you pointed out, it wasn't until we got quite a way down the hardware timeline to the point where a PC could handle Wolfenstein 3D where the interest was truly kindled. The 16 bit era also was dominated by computers that handled bitmap games with moving objects better than 3D screens. OK, ST could handle it a bit better.... but all system had better chipsets for 2d +sprites than the CPU was capable . Having a look at the Acorn Archimedes and the dedicated game "Zarch". If people had known better about it, who knows? But who knowed about the Archimedes back in the time? Only people reading insider magazines... And well, Archimedes really was fast enough to handle 3D scenes. But the mistake here was to use those triangles and squares. Gamers were not really interested in that kind of graphics. Who knows what happened with the Archimedes, after better pushing on the market and some 3D games with some "voxels" or textures... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYMARqdP6Vw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 i can't believe that because it doesn't explain why 3D games failed [snip!] ...where a PC could handle Wolfenstein 3D where the interest was truly kindled. [snip!] Who knows what happened with the Archimedes, after better pushing on the market and some 3D games with some "voxels" or textures... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYMARqdP6Vw Now that's why I continue to check in on this thread. That last game linked is interesting. There are things done that need revisiting, and I say that game is one of them. Re: WOLF3d -- That game changed up game expectations overnight. Still love it because it has all the feel of the classics. Simple game play, compelling, but limited graphics, fast action, tension, the whole deal. Awesome. Wonder if that guy who wrote the demo engine will continue down the road! It would be killer to see somebody get something WOLF like, on an 8 bitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisible kid Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 mostly a load of cobblers really seeing as how both the bbc and the spectrum had fantastic full 3d stuff. and if all u atari fanboys rated the lucas stuff so highly how come they ceased development? At least we're Atari 'fanboys' in an Atari 8 Bit Computer forum. would u like me to post some screenshots of your "classic" MP games to remind u how bad they looked? Rockfords stuff looks cutting edge in comparison Steve edit and i'm still waiting for all these awesome screenshots of classic games on the a8 that AREN'T the usual 8 suspects. Funny how the discussion is constantly steered towards screenshots. Especially how we've seen that many of the Atari screenshots are pretty far from what you see on the actual hardware, or even with the emulator configured with the correct target system. Screenshots don't show: cpu speed input responsiveness smoothness of animation disk drive speed and versatility included BASIC language capability One of the pastimes I like to do is check out the vast library of Atari BASIC programs. They are not technical masterpieces, but they show a lot of heart from people who probably don't even program anymore. Programs written for their kid brother, programs with awesome senses of humor, programs that are have surprising, unexpected elements or subject matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 I usually don't post anything here, but I seen this in all my LNs downloads: From here you see all the C64 possibilities. The Colour map and 16 colours. Where are the 16 colours. Most of them doesn't suit on the Backgr. and the colours they put... See the river/lava (same colours as the wall). We A8 can say: "Wrond colour choices". And you C64 what you say? Probably you do´'t say anything. Just count nº of colours on screen. In my obssession about LNs. I know I can put the same nº of colours or even more on screen (I can use DLIs. and PMs.) I know I can do screens in way to a final game. But one thing I assure you: "I can put the real (almost real) colours using A8 pallete. Greetings. José Pereira. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 The 16 bit era also was dominated by computers that handled bitmap games with moving objects better than 3D screens. OK, ST could handle it a bit better.... but all system had better chipsets for 2d +sprites than the CPU was capable Yes, but they could both handle it better than either the C64 or indeed the A8, so if your argument that i'm disagreeing with that the C64 suppressed 3D games because it was a slower machine were correct, it would've got back on track with the 16-bit machines and that simply didn't happen. The reason is because the market still wasn't interested and wouldn't be until Wolf 3D came along and radically changed what 3D games looked like. Having a look at the Acorn Archimedes and the dedicated game "Zarch". If people had known better about it, who knows? But who knowed about the Archimedes back in the time? Only people reading insider magazines... Zarch was released on the Amiga, Atari ST, PC and Spectrum under the name Virus, so it wasn't a dedicated Archemedes game and it's quite hard to claim obscurity since the Arc version scored very good reviews in the multi-format magazines of the time. As an aside, Zarch was written over a three month period (by David Braben, the co-author of the BBC Micro original and C64 port of Elite so it's by a Brit - don't tell frenchman!!) and that's only as long as Brian Jobling said he got for A8 games around the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) del by me.... Edited October 10, 2009 by frenchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 The 16 bit era also was dominated by computers that handled bitmap games with moving objects better than 3D screens. OK, ST could handle it a bit better.... but all system had better chipsets for 2d +sprites than the CPU was capable Yes, but they could both handle it better than either the C64 or indeed the A8, so if your argument that i'm disagreeing with that the C64 suppressed 3D games because it was a slower machine were correct, it would've got back on track with the 16-bit machines and that simply didn't happen. The reason is because the market still wasn't interested and wouldn't be until Wolf 3D came along and radically changed what 3D games looked like. Well, the 16 bits like ST and AMIGA had the faster CPU compared to the A8 and 64 anyways. But they had to handle the higher resolution which causes a drop of the framerate. Achimedes did a break with that and had a real powerful CPU to handle the used resolution. Just like the A8 in it's time. Having a look at the Acorn Archimedes and the dedicated game "Zarch". If people had known better about it, who knows? But who knowed about the Archimedes back in the time? Only people reading insider magazines... Zarch was released on the Amiga, Atari ST, PC and Spectrum under the name Virus, so it wasn't a dedicated Archemedes game and it's quite hard to claim obscurity since the Arc version scored very good reviews in the multi-format magazines of the time. As an aside, Zarch was written over a three month period (by David Braben, the co-author of the BBC Micro original and C64 port of Elite so it's by a Brit - don't tell frenchman!!) and that's only as long as Brian Jobling said he got for A8 games around the same time. The obscurity belongs to the customers view of things. Trained with the available "wants" of known things.... Virus was also very inferior to the original Zarch, even on the AMIGA with it's 4096 colours. People playing "Virus" just THOUGHT they would play a similar game to Zarch... that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 i replied that all the "classic" MP titles (your words) u mentioned were crap. i know they are crap..... Steve And that little British inch of credibility you had is just gone out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 40 - TRIVIAL PURSUIT C64 C64 C64 The C64 version has better graphics, sprites and more colours. The Atari version has grainy graphics and works in low resolution. The sprites have an ugly square "trimming" and the colours are very dark. C64 is better again. ATARI ATARI ATARI 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 i replied that all the "classic" MP titles (your words) u mentioned were crap. i know they are crap..... Steve And that little British inch of credibility you had is just gone out the window. you see again with the partial out of context quote. u will insist on making out that i dont like MP games as opposed to disputing your fanboy opinion that the early stuff was "classic" classic? these? no i think not classic? these? oh yes but then i never expect u to agree because MP never got past the basic stage on the a8 did it? so how can u possibly agree. it would mean u played them on a 64 and would lose your fanboy mantle. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Those are some great screenies. There is no question the C64 can post up some nice detail. Here's one to noodle for a while. When something like those games gets done on Atari 8 bitters, it's just bad ass because it's hard, because a lot of people think it's not possible, etc... All part of why I prefer Atari. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 A big loss for the 80s and for computerhistory to miss the game on the most relevant 8 bit for this type of games. yeah i daresay braben and bell kick themselves every day over those dozen sales they lost and i do believe that u think the a8 has "cray" stamped on its chipset instead of 1.8 mhz. bearing in mind that mercenary was the only real "true" 3d game ever produced on it. or hadnt u actually realised that? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) ATARI Urk!! The sprites are a bit of a travesty I have to agree, but in all fairness there's some nice blending (I'm assuming this is the PAL version right?) going on on the board, bet that looks proper lush like on a real telly Well, okay.. Looks a bit better than the otherwise bare 5 colours it would have been without it.. Still not a bad bash at it.. The 64 clearly comes out smelling of roses again, as is usual when there's anything involving the words hi-res, colours and sprites edit: I said 'nice blending', perhaps that should have read 'some blending', but it's just a pleasant change to actually see it being used on the A8.. Obviously the native 256 colours makes one loathe to use any other form of artifical colouring, be it dithering or blending.. Bless'em and their multi-coloured cotton socks Edited October 10, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) yeah i daresay braben and bell kick themselves every day over those dozen sales they lost There's an edited extract here from the book 'Backroom Boys: The Secret Return Of The British Boffin' and the part featuring bed and breakfast during the creation of elite was stuffed in the Guardian last month.. http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2003/oct/18/features.weekend An interesting read, for both men and rabid-frothing-fan-monkeys of the only 6502 machine to not get a version Edited October 10, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 mostly a load of cobblers really seeing as how both the bbc and the spectrum had fantastic full 3d stuff. even filled vector in the spectrums case. so the c64 users were well aware of faster 3d processing. and if all u atari fanboys rated the lucas stuff so highly how come they ceased development? sales must have been crap to do that. Elite never seemed to have those problems, it has been converted to every single major computer format. oh except yours. obviously. Steve Since you hate atari so much, what the heck makes you hang out here? Stick with something constructive per Albert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 40 - TRIVIAL PURSUIT C64 C64 C64 The C64 version has better graphics, sprites and more colours. The Atari version has grainy graphics and works in low resolution. The sprites have an ugly square "trimming" and the colours are very dark. C64 is better again. ATARI ATARI ATARI Not really.. the c64 is slightly more colorful and that's about it. looks like mostly a choice of colors. certainly does not reflect on the hardware, however this also is past the prime time of Atari. Not a bad Atari version though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 ATARI The 64 clearly comes out smelling of roses again, as is usual when there's anything involving the words hi-res, colours and sprites It's a blasphemy to say anything like that. Shouldn't be Atari better at spawning colours ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) bump Edited October 10, 2009 by atarian63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) i replied that all the "classic" MP titles (your words) u mentioned were crap. i know they are crap..... Steve And that little British inch of credibility you had is just gone out the window. that's for sure. I imagine it is hard for most of the UK people here to really have much validity in commenting on A8 as they have all said it was barely a presence in the UK. Unlike here where it was a major player for many years.Software was everywhere and in was second only to Apple for many years as well. Probably hard to imagine for them. Not to mention Atari was a US company. Edited October 10, 2009 by atarian63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 i replied that all the "classic" MP titles (your words) u mentioned were crap. i know they are crap..... Steve And that little British inch of credibility you had is just gone out the window. that's for sure. I imagine it is hard for most of the UK people here to really have much validity in commenting on A8 as they have all said it was barely a presence in the UK. Unlike here where it was a major player for many years.Software was everywhere and in was second only to Apple for many years as well. Probably hard to imagine for them. Not to mention Atari was a US company. Commodore was also an US company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) so i cant cant comment coz i am not american? oooohhh dangerously close to nationalism or racism that. jesus anyone would think that the uk never saw an a8 listening to the rubbish that u spout. we did. it just never got anywhere. so amongst all these mounds of glorious software u were tripping over, would u care to post some of the good stuff thats NOT one of the usual 8 to enlighten us poor unfortunates that dont subscribe to the hype? Steve edit oh and as for constructive.. just how much involvement have u had in producing anything constructive for your little community in say the last 5 years? probably not as much as i have had in the last 3 months i bet. and i can honestly say the atari graphics systems are THE most frustrating thing i have ever worked on. Edited October 10, 2009 by STE'86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Here is a 1990 c64 commercial soccer game vs an early 80's Atari 2600 soccer game. I think the 2600 looks better with more detailed characters. Atari 2600 wins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) so i cant cant comment coz i am not american? oooohhh dangerously close to nationalism or racism that. jesus anyone would think that the uk never saw an a8 listening to the rubbish that u spout. we did. it just never got anywhere. so amongst all these mounds of glorious software u were tripping over, would u care to post some of the good stuff thats NOT one of the usual 8 to enlighten us poor unfortunates that dont subscribe to the hype? Steve Nice try at a dismiss,However it is factual. also the kind of comment you are making may get you suspended.. think before typing... You would have no way to know what it was like here in the US during the Atari days. It was EVERYWHERE. From 2600 to 8bit. Pretty touchy there guy.. What a silly comment trying to connect nationalism to racism. even weirder since nothing "nationalistic" was said and the two are not connected. If this forum is that upsetting for you maybe you should take a break. Edited October 10, 2009 by atarian63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 i replied that all the "classic" MP titles (your words) u mentioned were crap. i know they are crap..... Steve And that little British inch of credibility you had is just gone out the window. that's for sure. I imagine it is hard for most of the UK people here to really have much validity in commenting on A8 as they have all said it was barely a presence in the UK. Unlike here where it was a major player for many years.Software was everywhere and in was second only to Apple for many years as well. Probably hard to imagine for them. Not to mention Atari was a US company. Commodore was also an US company selling primarily overseas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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