frenchman Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I'm just reading these C64 vs threads, and it makes me think. Why do the C64 users come here to an Atari site to show off? Do they and their machine have an inferior complex? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 haeven:© 1997-2002 Taquart what we have now? 2009? or i'm missing something? Numen was new back then, but 7 years have passed! oh...shit... I get old... but the c64 demo scene is not inventing the wheel twice... there is a physical boundary of plasmas...so that's why imho a lot more pressure on design, art and music... ok. what was your last contribution to the scene? codewise, artwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I'm just reading these C64 vs threads, and it makes me think. Why do the C64 users come here to an Atari site to show off? Do they and their machine have an inferior complex? I could ask the same question about all the anti-Commodore demos on A8. Similar things do not exist on C64 even though there are far more C64 demos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) I don't think one could be a good game programmer if one's orgin arent at the demoscene, simply because on demoscene coders push up the limits and proove that this or that could be done faster or done at all with given hardware. but i'm drifting out of subject now my point is, that productivity at the demoscene on 8bit atari is quite low just wish there were more decent productions :/ Haeven: on 8bit atari? i'm just here for hardware! and i don't know if this qualifies as being on atari demoscene and i didn't write for long time at my origin platform (pc), since i'm assembly coder fof x86, and it doesn't matter if this is windows, or dos now i've moved on avr as i said, it easy to criticise, but this is not like i'm doing nothing, i'm just playing at diffrend field have just checked - last entry on my disk is rated at 27 of february 2003, and this is adf-writer for restoring back adf files to disk, faster than what was avaivable in that time, but it never get popular... (posted on atariarea if memory serves) Edited February 23, 2009 by candle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I'm just reading these C64 vs threads, and it makes me think. Why do the C64 users come here to an Atari site to show off? Do they and their machine have an inferior complex? I could ask the same question about all the anti-Commodore demos on A8. Similar things do not exist on C64 even though there are far more C64 demos. Oh I have seen many of these on C64, believe me, even anti-Spectrum demos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) I could ask the same question about all the anti-Commodore demos on A8. There are some, yes. But you sound as if all the A8 scene activity was to produce anti-C-64 demos (how many of them are of lesser age than 20 years old?), whereas undoubtfully all YOUR (C-64 people) activity HERE is to evangelize us on how much the C-64 is better than anything (and if it is not, then see above). As Rybags pointed out, this gets pretty boring, and the only entertaining part may be such failed attempts to impress us as this one, with the "the best C64 demo ever". Edited February 23, 2009 by drac030 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 From an Atari ST perspective. "Oh, it's in the borders. Thats kinda cool. Didn't we just see that plasma effect with those exact same colours in the last bit?" From an Atari A8 perspective. "Oh, it's in the borders. Ummm. What's so special about that?. Oh, it's a plasma effect with the exact same colours as last time." From a general viewer of the video perspective. "My god that is MIND BENDINGLY REPETETIVE. Oh my god, it's only half way." <clicks close window> Really, if you want to talk Commode, go to a Commode forum. Or don't bitch when the Atari folk on this one gank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I'm just reading these C64 vs threads, and it makes me think. Why do the C64 users come here to an Atari site to show off? Do they and their machine have an inferior complex? I could ask the same question about all the anti-Commodore demos on A8. Similar things do not exist on C64 even though there are far more C64 demos. And besides that, what are you, 5 years old? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Really, if you want to talk Commode, go to a Commode forum. Or don't bitch when the Atari folk on this one gank you Gank: The embarrassing thing you do in your pants in front of your buddies when a stripper gives you a lap dance. Commode for Commodore is pretty good. I wonder what can be done with Atari? Maybe Retardi? "Boy, if you don't stop playin' with that Retardi machine and get out there and mow the damn lawn, I'm gonna shove my foot up yer ass!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Oh I have seen many of these on C64, believe me, even anti-Spectrum demos. Any examples? There are some, yes. But you sound as if all the A8 scene activity was to produce anti-C-64 demos (how many of them are of lesser age than 20 years old?), whereas undoubtfully all YOUR (C-64 people) activity HERE is to evangelize us on how much the C-64 is better than anything (and if it is not, then see above). As Rybags pointed out, this gets pretty boring, and the only entertaining part may be such failed attempts to impress us as this one, with the "the best C64 demo ever". Where did I "evangilize" things? Other than correcting misconceptions like "A8 is twice as fast" or "A8 was better in everything". I could ask the same question about all the anti-Commodore demos on A8. Similar things do not exist on C64 even though there are far more C64 demos. And besides that, what are you, 5 years old? No my dear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastRobPlus Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) I don't think one could be a good game programmer if one's orgin arent at the demoscene, simply because on demoscene coders push up the limits and proove that this or that could be done faster or done at all with given hardware.but i'm drifting out of subject now my point is, that productivity at the demoscene on 8bit atari is quite low just wish there were more decent productions :/ Almost no recent demos? Let's keep it that way! You notice the trolls don't come here to open up threads like "What game has your precious Atari gotten recently that can compete with us?" We're getting phenomenal games (Hobgoblin, Yoomp!, Crownland, Tempest) at a very good clip considering how few programmers we have! You want to abandon gems like Beyond Evil and Space Harrier and push these guys code demos you can watch once or twice and then forget?!? If so, perhaps you'd be more happy in the Commodore scene. I suspect most of those who want demos are asking for them because there is still a retro demo scene in parts of Europe (I'm thinking Germany and Scandinavia) but these parties don't even exist in most of the world. I'll tell you what is picking up steam: Retro games shows and conventions. Casual gaming is all around us now. You see a lot of folks - from hackers to soccer moms who grew up in an age where video games were just taking off, but the world accepts games and technology now. Now as a culture we’re even looking back to the golden age. We'll have at least one retro convention in the Seattle/Vancouver/Portland area this year, probably more. And I'd bet there will be many retro shows or modern video gaming shows with a retro presence everywhere in the world this year. People love taking a break at these to sit at the retro tabes and play a game of Donkey Kong on the NES or Pong on the Atari while a small crowd gathers around to watch and take turns. But here's the deal: Most of these people are going to gather around Guitar Hero and Smash Bros and whatever new V.C. or Xbox Live Arcade games are out that month. It's takes a lot just to grab the attention of a crowd and keep them for more than 15 seconds. So try this: Next time a show is in your area, setup a retro computing table and at one end of that table put a C64 running Desert Dream or EoD, and at the other end put an XL/XE with Yoomp! and watch the crowd. Chances are depending on where you are in the C64's demo, a few people will gather to look at the screen and remark about how they used to have a C64, then wander away as the demo fails to sustain their interest for more than 15 second (plasma effects aint gonna cut it on a show floor) Now, watch the Yoomp! side. You'll notice the same small number of folks look at the display, remark about how they used to have an Atari and how they played Yars Revenge on it all night, and then something interesting might happen: They will pick up the joystick and play, and they will see that Yoomp! is just as good as anything they have played on their V.C. or XBLA or DS or iPhone this week. They will ask when it was made. When they find its recent they will ask if it's coming to the modern consoles as a cheap download. Others will gather around to watch whoever is playing. They will try to deconstruct the gameplay and laugh when somebody gets unexpectedly flung to the side down a hole. They will remark that the music is better than anything they remember computers doing from that era. They will stay a lot longer – minutes as opposed to seconds. The next day, they may even remember Yoomp and remark about it to their friends. So... What machine has the best demo? Let the world decide. *edit* before anybody tells me that Yar's Revenge is not out of the Atari 8-bit, I wanted to say that's my point. Even at a retro games con, most of the folks who see "Atari" lumb them all together into one bucket. Edited February 23, 2009 by FastRobPlus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 well said... see SF4 shipped in europe more than 2 mio units, went straight to place 1 in sales charts in uk... arcade sticks are sold out... so... casual gaming or "classic" gaming seems to coming back if made right... so... demos are for demo people... or so called "sceners"...if you are not into it then you will not much appreciate the work or the art... same with literature or paintings... if you are not into it...then you will not see the magic behind them.... I envolved from game coding on vic-20 to demo coding on A8 because at that time it was more challenging... but being in the games biz now for several years now... my interest went into game coding...simply because it is more challenging. demos are high level art of coding but completly different than game coding. because you are working in a predicted environment and you are the master what happens on screen... it is more like coding an application... but game coding is one of the most challenging stuff as you are working most of the time in a complete unpredicted environment... so many sub-engines, so many realtime issues depending on the gamers moves and inputs... so many depandencies... and most difficult one... a game must catch the players attention and give him "fun". and this is the hardest one...to catch peoples free time and give them fun... sorry... I am getting off here but that could be the reason why most of the Atari sceners are working on games nowadays? Yoomp, Bomb Jack, Flowers Mania, Jetpack, Pang, Knight Lore, Jet set willy, Night Driver, Hoboglobin, Cookie Monster, Swapz, Crownlöand, Metagalactic Llamas... and many more... so... games do get a broader attention thou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Very well said. And it's true about the scene too. More people are getting interested in retro and casual gaming. The same things that have always appealed continue to appeal. Nothing is lost there. However, we know more today too. And most of us are at that age now anyway. Old enough to do stuff seriously, but not so old as to not still have fun! That makes YOOMP! possible. And BTW, everybody I've shown that too absolutely loves it. Spot on FastRobPlus. Another thing that's really encouraging is showing off 2600 home brews. I've been doing this for a while now. Had a break because of a lost machine. About to start up again. If you put a VCS, running something simple and interesting like Medievil Mayhem, somewhere that people can toy with it, they will play. Every time I did that at home, I would come back to find a few kids all with paddles in their hands just going at it! Some will ask for it, having been to the house a few times when I've got the stuff hooked up. Growing this on the older machines makes a lot of sense. Frankly, I think some of the better micro controllers out there are prime candidates too. Those are new, and hardware can be built, and often sold for the cost of a better home brew production. Seriously cool stuff. That's part of why I'm doing the tinkering I am in that area honestly. I'm in the PDX / Seattle area, and there is a growing buzz about this stuff. Most ordinary people are open to it also. When they see the VCS, it's an icon. Many will ask about it, or pick it up for a quick play. Computers are that way too. Another thing too. The retro home brew scene is kind of fun on several levels. The hardware limits overall expectations, and that puts a very good quality production within the scope where one person or a small team can get it done. The other part is that it is often open. At least it is here. That's fun too! Not only are the results fun to play and attractive to own, but the getting there is a good story, with lots going on fairly often. Buy a homebrew, and send the author a quick note saying thanks, or a photo of you and friends having a good time on their production. Most of them will send a quick note back with appreciation in it. That's all part of the fun of it too. IMHO, hard core demos push the edge, and out of that falls better tech tools for games. That isn't the only way it happens, but it's sure a strong contributor. I don't see why both can't continue to happen either. Some people like the focus on the hardware, others like games and sometimes they work together too. All good. An example of pushing the edge, and building fodder for games would be the interlace code Rybags showed off. It's getting very close to usable. It is now, just not for the casual person. When that gets refined enough to be presented in a friendly way, suddenly there are a lot of new doors open. 160x384 could make for some new visuals, or just being able to present a large map, or who knows what. A demo surrounding that will ferret out some technique, and that's then a tool in the tool box for somebody needing it for a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 A comparision "games vs demos" doesn't make any sense. They are two entirely different things. And "A8 games vs C64 demos" makes even less sense. FastRob, maybe you don't know but there are games on C64 aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I think it's "games AS demos". Given a choice, the latter probably do more to expand the scene than actual demos do. Not to diminish people making demos. They are cool, and I personally enjoy watching them. I don't however show them off all that much. Ordinary people just see some pixel art, say "cool" and move on, if that. By contrast, enjoying a game with them is a much better experience. The core of the thread; namely, "The Best C64 Demo (Can A8 do better?)" speaks to this, does it not? Are we impressing ourselves, or are we interested in new people to have fun with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I personally do not care anymore which machine is better or what... look I own vic-20, 2600, 800, amiga 500, a1200, 1040 ste, snes, gba, ds, gamecube, dreamcast, neo geo, psx, ps2, xbox, xbox 360, pc, gbc, n64, c64... had hands on mega drive. touched assembler code on 6502, m68000, r3000...so well... ok, most experience on 800 but well... so... I am in love with 8bit/16bit pixel gfx, sound... i feel the vibes of an vic-20, an 800...or even the A1200... all custom hardware, no soleless windows/linux PCs... I am buying a lot of games for my 360 and via live arcade... and on DS/GBA i have a lot of retro compilations and so... (ok...again offtopic) but to make a long story short... yes... games attach people and as artists most of us are...we want to catch peoples attention... so I try not to take part in these "vs" threads anymore... not c64 demos vs a8 demos, not games vs games... as long as there are 2600 games keeping peoples attention... (is there any simpler plug and play console? even DS or Wii are more complicated... ) why should we discuss and fight each other??? another point to think about...one of the most selling game over xbox live! is UNO! is there any fight between 360 fanboys and ps3 fanboys regarding UNO? no...but other "hardcore" games... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 For the love of god, would some crew please just do an A8 port of Second Reality already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Where did I "evangilize" things? Other than correcting misconceptions like "A8 is twice as fast" or "A8 was better in everything". This is what I call evangelizing too. You simply can't stand that anyone could think that A8 is better than C-64, or that anyone could ignore C-64 in any topic related to 8 bits, including A8. It is difficult lately to come across a topic here, where either Froehn or Oswald wouldn't think that some remotely known machine called "C-64" isn't relevant enough to mention it and insist that this is on-topic. The extreme example was the SIO thread - exotic even for Atarians, where the usage of Pokey external clock was discussed - where you came to tell us, how cool & stable C-64 crystals are. Despite the fact, that you must be very naive to believe, that Commodore actually used any better crystals than other companies to produce the computers, let's even said they did - do you really believe that this is relevant? Anyway, you'd better use that energy to explain to your colleagues - like the (quite unfortunate) starter of this topic - why his "the best C-64 demo ever" has not made the impression he certainly expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 What a ridiculous statement candle - I don't think one could be a good game programmer if one's orgin arent at the demoscene Very few game programmers have graduated from the scene, the skills are QUITE different. It's one thing to make a machine turn tricks, quite another to create a a game... Sure there are exceptions and skills can and do translate - but aside from a few pinball games, blasteroids clones and the failure of Scavanger, demo coders are not a major force in games development... sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Steve...well... Factor 5? Spellbound? Thalion? Swedish coders? Well... i know some of demo coders who made the transition into game programming... most prominent imho... one of the Lost Boys (ST demo crew) who is the driving force behind Gods of war etc... http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/v...loperId,147292/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Notice I didn't say no-one had, sure there are a few demo scene people in games development, but compared with the THOUSANDS of artists and engineers world wide, the number is tiny... Factor 5 - like Scavenger is gone is it not? sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 where you came to tell us, how cool & stable C-64 crystals are. Despite the fact, that you must be very naive to believe, that Commodore actually used any better crystals than other companies to produce the computers, let's even said they did - do you really believe that this is relevant? PMSL. Commodore couldn't even settle on how many cycles per scanline they wanted, so I doubt they were exactly fastidious about their crystal quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Notice I didn't say no-one had, sure there are a few demo scene people in games development, but compared with the THOUSANDS of artists and engineers world wide, the number is tiny... Factor 5 - like Scavenger is gone is it not? sTeVE sure... but F5 was in business for a quite long time... weren't they? you haven't said that you mean "still" in business... I met several guys from dev studios who have done one of our PS2 project who were part of the demo scene (90s)... same happened when being in touch with Jowood and former Rockstar Vienna... so... yes...agreed that they might be more people doing games not being in the demo scene but in 90s might be more people... but I would say that in US you are looking for talents at the GDC while here even on events like breakpoint party... but that is now really offtopic... btw. are there japanese demo crews??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 This is what I call evangelizing too. You simply can't stand that anyone could think that A8 is better than C-64, or that anyone could ignore C-64 in any topic related to 8 bits, including A8 You got that wrong. I know that A8 can do certain things better than C64, for example: Most demo routines will end up being bigger & faster on A8. What I can't stand is just the totally wrong "knowledge" some people spread. The extreme example was the SIO thread - exotic even for Atarians, where the usage of Pokey external clock was discussed - where you came to tell us, how cool & stable C-64 crystals are. Despite the fact, that you must be very naive to believe, that Commodore actually used any better crystals than other companies to produce the computers, let's even said they did - do you really believe that this is relevant? You are making a "C64 vs A8" thing out of what I said, not me. I was NOT saying "C64 crystals are better than A8 ones", I was saying: "both machines use PAL/NTSC tech crystals and because of that the crystals are more accurate than the average crystal used in computers". Anyway, you'd better use that energy to explain to your colleagues - like the (quite unfortunate) starter of this topic - why his "the best C-64 demo ever" has not made the impression he certainly expected. I better use my energy in coding some stuff. Which I currently do btw... On A8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 The CvA topic is like a virus infecting all other threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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