had the 7800 launched in 1984....

[xg4bx]

do you think it would have rendered the nes d.o.a. or would it still would have failed due to the public seeing games like super mario that the 7800 simply couldn't compete with?

[Tenorman]

It probably would have done a little better, but I still don't know if it would have overtaken even the Sega Master System. The biggest problem with the 7800 is the majority of its games are relics from the earlier part of the 1980s. Even at 1984 people were getting tired of these kind of games and buying computers so they could play more advanced games. People wanted something a bit more in depth. Mario, Zelda, Castlevania, etc. Heck, even Alex Kidd, Shinobi, and Phantasy Star. Investing in more quality software development is the only thing that would have helped the 7800.

[Greg2600]

It would have been entering an incredibly flooded marketplace. Even with the cancellations of the 5200 and Colecovision. People were actually kind of fine with the 2600, and the 7800 was not as large an improvement as the Master System and NES would be. I think people were kind of arcaded out with DK, Pac-Man, etc., at that time. The other problem is that Atari was in financial peril around that time, when Tramiel came in. Did they even have the capital to properly back the system?

[nathanallan]

We would have three console makers, Nintendo, Sony and Atari. I firmly believe that if it had released in 84, the NES would have stuck around but the MS failed anyway, and Atari would have been sticking with it.

 

I still don't see how the MS failed, the launch titles I have now are way better than the NES titles imho.

 

But if Atari had released on time, they'd still be in the market. The launch titles may have suffered, but 3rd parties would have been more interested in original games (or rather interested at all), competed against Nin in a very big way.

[gdement]

It makes a huge difference whether we're talking about

A) 7800 released in 1984 under Warner, because they never sold to Tramiel

or

B) Tramiel goes ahead with 1984 release after he took over

 

Tramiel didn't have Warner's resources, so even if he was serious about the 7800 he'd still be limited in what he could do with it.

 

Warner was serious, and I think they could have gained a respectable market share by the time the NES showed up. GCC would be kept at work releasing more of their games and finishing the "Gumby" sound chip. 2600 compatibility would also be more of a selling point.

Assuming reasonable 84-86 success, more developers would likely start working on the system vs our reality. Eventually this could include some Japanese who weren't yet under Nintendo's control. If the 7800 were competitive then I don't believe Atari would be entirely locked out of Japanese games. Anyway, regardless of US/Japan origin, more complex games would be written if the system had reasonable market share.

[8th lutz]

It depends on what are are in charge of Atari.

If 7800 released in 1984 under Warner, the answer is a possible yes.

 

I am saying that for the following reasons:

 

• Atari 7800 would easier access to port arcade games from Atari's arcade division. Tramiel wouldn't own the arcade division based on the amount of money he had. That would be a difference. Atari 7800 could have ports like Marble Madness, Gauntlet, Paperboy, and Super Sprint for an example.
   
  
• Waner had deeper pockets than Tramiel. That means more sound chips in Atari 7800 Cartridges, and games with more memory.
   
  
• Warner would do better job of marketing the Atari 7800's ability of playing Atari 2600 games besides playing Atari 7800 games.
  
• Warner still would have GCC to work on Atari 7800 games.
   
  
• Atari 7800 would have more Bally Midway arcade games for the Atari 7800 beside Mrs. Pac-man, Rampage and Xenophobe on it's system. Super Pac-man and Jr. Pac-man were rumor mill 7800. That means the Atari 7800 might of had a chance to have Pac-land, Root Beer Tapper on it's system for an example . Pac-Land would have a chance to be released by Bally Midway since they release the game according to Klov.
   
  
• Atari would have more Namco released on the system based on the amount Atari ported on the Atari 7800. That means Atari might have arcade ports of Dig Dug 2, Mappy Dragon Buster, Final Lap, Dragon Spirit, Gaplus, Pac-mania, Rolling Thunder for an example.
   
  
• Atari would have more ports of Williams arcade games. Atari had Robotron 2084, and Joust on the Atari 7800 and Stargate was a rumor Mill game. There was a possibility of Arcade ports of Joust 2, Blaster for an example.
   
  
• Atari appeared to have plans of porting Taito arcade games to the 7800. Elevator Action and Jungle Hunt are Rumor Mill games for the system. It think it is possible that Atari might gets ports like Arkanoid and Bobble Bubble for an example.
   
  
• Some of the companies I mentioned are possible to have Arcade ports in 1986 and beyond since the sales of the 7800 wouldn't be to bad because the Atari 7800 would have a decent market share. Atari and Namco had a strong bussiness relationship by 1984.
   
  
• The Atari 7800 appeared to be a system made for computer ports like Ballblazer and the prototype of Rescue Fractalus proved. The Atari 7800 also had The Eidolon and Lode Runner as rumor mill games according to DP's collector's guide. That means Atari was planing on publishing computer ports based on multiple companies. Lucasfilm Games and Brøderbund wouldn't be the only two companies Atari would be porting computer games from.
   
  
• Lucasfilm Games would be a huge asset in terms of porting games from at the time based on what they were doing at the time.
   
  
• Brøderbund wouldn't be a bad asset for Atari to port games from since Lode Runner and midnight magic was a rumor mill game. Atari 7800 also Choplifter!, Karateka released for the system. That means the Atari 7800 could be getting more Brøderbund computer ports like Raid on Bungeling Bay for an example.
   
  
• Colecovision was on it's way to leave the market in 1984. That there would be Epyx Games on the Atari 7800. Epyx released some Colecovision games from it's lifetime. Epyx would be a huge addition to having games released on the Atari 7800 besides Winter and Summer Games.
  

Edited June 2, 2009 by 8th lutz

[Gorf]

It would have been entering an incredibly flooded marketplace. Even with the cancellations of the 5200 and Colecovision. People were actually kind of fine with the 2600, and the 7800 was not as large an improvement as the Master System and NES would be. I think people were kind of arcaded out with DK, Pac-Man, etc., at that time. The other problem is that Atari was in financial peril around that time, when Tramiel came in. Did they even have the capital to properly back the system?

 

Out of the box a 7800 just does not have the RAM on board to allow the Maria to do some of the things it can do.

I know the typical games tend not to show it but the 7800 with more cart hardware could easily keep up with either

the SMS or the NES, have many more sound channels, more ROM, RAM....but then you pay NeoGeo prices for the

carts. Maria is an incredibly potent chip held back by more cost/design decisions. As far as Maria's ability to keep up,

it is more than enough to compete with either SMS or NES.....it requires more system resources than the 7800 affords.

[stirrell]

I think that part of the problem is that Atari always seemed to be behind in emerging game genres. If you were a fan of straight coin-op ports, and that is all you cared about, Atari systems have always been fairly good. If you wanted an RPG or a side-scroller (which were becoming incredibly popular on the NES) then you just could not get that experience on the 7800. The only side-scroller I can think of is Scrapyard Dog which was excellent (IMO) but very late to the party. The only RPG-ish game for the 7800 was Midnight Mutants. Of course, a big part of the problem is that there was very, very little 3rd party support. A company with the resources of Atari couldn't write and publish enough games to satisfy every type of gamer. Without 3rd part support, I don't see how the 7800 could have succeeded. I think even if the 7800 had all of the arcade ports people are mentioning here that, without the newer types of games available, that the 7800 would still have failed.

[DracIsBack]

It would have been entering an incredibly flooded marketplace. Even with the cancellations of the 5200 and Colecovision.

 

I don't really agree here. Most of the companies in the industry had jettisoned the business. However, I think the word "Atari" would have worked against anything they put out. There was a big stigma at the time with "Atari" and "video games". So much so that Nintendo went to painstaiking lengths to distance the NES from "Atari" and "video games". it looked like the VCR. Games were "entertainment paks" (not video games), the system was an "entertainment system" not "video game console", it sold (initially with a robot) etc.

 

Even if Atari went to market in 1984 with the 7800, I think they'd have had a hard time selling the system to angry retailers who had been previously burned.

 

I think people were kind of arcaded out with DK, Pac-Man, etc., at that time.

 

That's something I agree with. The initial launch library was better versions of the same things vs. something entirely different (ie. Super Mario)

 

Atari was in financial peril around that time, when Tramiel came in

.

 

So was Tramiel Atari initially. Remember, this is a company that launched the 7800 on a $300,000 budget when Nintendo was spending millions. Warner had things like a sponsorship for the Summer Olympics lined up.

[8th lutz]

I don't know where the NEO Geo prices for Atari 7800 carts come from. The Nes was released in Japan and couldn't do 128k games without bankswiching.

 

The Atari 7800 could do up 48k cartridges before bankswitiching. That means Atari shouldn't have problems doing 256k for the Atari 7800 in 1988 without going over $100.00. The key is how much the gumby sound chip adds to a games price.

 

The Atari 7800 wouldn't have any games that cost over a $100.00 unless they did something Sega did in 1987. Sega released Phantasy Star as a 512k rpg in Japan in that.

 

Remember that if the Atari 7800 was released in 1984, Atari would have to be working on a new system to be released in 1989 or 1990.

[8th lutz]

I think that part of the problem is that Atari always seemed to be behind in emerging game genres. If you were a fan of straight coin-op ports, and that is all you cared about, Atari systems have always been fairly good. If you wanted an RPG or a side-scroller (which were becoming incredibly popular on the NES) then you just could not get that experience on the 7800. The only side-scroller I can think of is Scrapyard Dog which was excellent (IMO) but very late to the party. The only RPG-ish game for the 7800 was Midnight Mutants. Of course, a big part of the problem is that there was very, very little 3rd party support. A company with the resources of Atari couldn't write and publish enough games to satisfy every type of gamer. Without 3rd part support, I don't see how the 7800 could have succeeded. I think even if the 7800 had all of the arcade ports people are mentioning here that, without the newer types of games available, that the 7800 would still have failed.

 

It is true that Atari seemed to be behind in emerging game genres in terms of Rpgs. It might have changed if Warner was in charge though for the Atari 7800 with a keyboard.

 

Tramiel scrapped the keyboard and the expansion port back of the system for an add-on.

 

One of the Arcade games I mention Rolling Thunder was close to a nes style game. There was new genres coming out in the arcade in the mid 80's in terms of scrolling games.

 

Remember, I didn't mention all Arcade titles when I mentions Lucasfilms and Brøderbund.

 

Warner had plans with a keyboard for the Atari 7800. Lucasfilms was known for computer software at the time. The same thing is true with Brøderbund.

 

That means Warner wanted the Atari 7800 to be game console that has mostly arcade ports and computer ports.

 

With Keyboard, that means you could do rpgs at the time. It depends if Atari was successful in games like Ultima getting ported to the Atari 7800.

Edited June 2, 2009 by 8th lutz

[S1500]

The Atari 7800 didn't really seem to be a step up from the 5200 in terms of anything. Look at the differences between the PS1 & PS2. Look at the differences between the Genesis & the SMS.

[8th lutz]

The Atari 7800 would have a problem in 1984 or 1985 if was launch by Warner or Tramiel. That is a good number of 7800 were released on the 2600 and the 5200.

 

There were some rumor mill and prototype games for Atari 7800. Some of them looked look early games for 1984 or 1985 to me. These games would be the keys to the 7800 game sales in 1984 and 1985.

 

Here are guesses on those rumor mill games in terms of how well they would be in sales if released in 1984 or 1985:

 

Cloak & Digger- May or may not have been be a hit.

 

Crystal Castles - would put up some solid sales as an arcade port, but game was released on 2600

 

Eidolon, The - Might have a chance to put up solid numbers back in the day and wasn't any other Atari game console.

 

Elevator Action - Might have been a hit back in the day due to the fact it was released in the Arcades in 1983. Big problem would be the fact an Atari 2600 prototype exists. That means the 7800 version would be competing against the Atari 2600 version of elevator Action.

 

Gremlins - not sure if it would have been a good game or a hit. The 5200 version of Gremlins was good, 2600 version sucked.

 

Jr. Pac-man - While Pac-man plus did a great job this year, the game may not sell well due to the potential amount of Pac-man games on the system, game released on 2600 and a prototype of found on Atari 5200.

 

Jungle Hunt - sales might be hurt due to the fact it was on Atari 2600 and Atari 5200

 

Lode Runner- could have pretty good sales since it was not on a game console before.

 

Midnight Magic - Sales could hurt from the Atari Atari 2600 getting the game in 1984 or 1985.

 

Millipede - Sales could be solid, but game was a Atari 5200 prototype and 2600. Sales would be hurt by that.

 

Moon Patrol - Sales might be hurt by the game being on Atari 2600 and Atari 5200.

 

Stargate - The game would be released on Atari 2600 sooner and wouldn't many sales for a 1981 arcade game having a port release in 1984 or 1985.

 

Pac-man - great homebrew version by Pac-man plus, but would have problems as a game release back in the day. Game was released in the arcades in 1980. and the game was already released for Atari 2600 and 5200.

 

Super Pac-man - great homebrew port by Pac-man Plus, but would face issues as an Atari 7800 release in 1984 or 1985. Super Pac-man was a prototype for the Atari 5200 and could hurt sales for the Atari 7800 version as a result.

 

Tempest- Atari 2600 and Atari 5200 has prototypes of this game. That means the 7800 version would hurting in sales for what ever market is left for an arcade game released in 1980.

 

Track & Field - might be a prototype type, but game would hurt in sales. The Atari 2600 game was released back in the day, and the 5200 version was in prototype form. That means had plans of releasing the game on to many systems.

 

Here the toughts on the prototype game from the 1984 era:

 

Rescue on Fractalus - Sales would hurt by being on the Atari 5200 also.

[DracIsBack]

The Atari 7800 didn't really seem to be a step up from the 5200 in terms of anything.

 

 

Seriously though, you're comparing systems that had major leaps in processing power (the SMS had a Z80; the Genesis had a 68000 and a Z80). The pre-crash and the post crash systems were all 8-bits with very little difference in raw "processing power".

 

Where they differed was in things like memory and graphics architecture.

 

 

Show me the 5200 playing SIRIUS, MIDNIGHT MUTANTS or ALIEN BRIGADE!

 

The Nes was released in Japan and couldn't do 128k games without bankswiching.

 

The Atari 7800 could do up 48k cartridges before bankswitiching. That means Atari shouldn't have problems doing 256k for the Atari 7800 in 1988 without going over $100.00.

 

Strangely, i've heard many people over the years assume the 7800 is physically incapable of playing games larger than 48K because Tramiel didn't really bankswitch until late 1988 and the games that do it are rarer.

 

There's nothing preventing the 7800 from playing a 512K game on a technical level. Demos had even been done and a prototype board was found. Jack just didn't want to pay for games that big.

Edited June 2, 2009 by DracIsBack

[Greg2600]

I just don't see how Atari, armed with few third parties (thanks to their treatment of them), could have competed with Nintendo, armed by itself and with Capcom, Konami, and all the rest. SEGA sure couldn't. Super Mario, Zelda, Punch Out, RC Pro-Am, Castlevania, Contra, Mega Man. Where were they getting games that well programmed and deep?

[kool kitty89]

For you guys mentioning RPG's, I really don't think they were particularly popular outside Japan (at least in the JRPG style), they did OK in the US, not huge, but from what I've read they were almost universaly shunned in europe (especially by the gaming media in the UK, continuing until FFVII). The classic 80's US home computer RPG's and adventure games are a bit different, but they didn't apply too much to home gaming consoles either. (with exceptions like Maniac Mansion)

 

Platformers were huge though, and one problem the 7800 had was doing background layers. (the nature of Maria made it tricky to program scroll layers, it was not like contemporary consoles and would be especially difficult to port over games to the 7800 due to differences like this and the lack of hardware sprites) For many arcade games with solid black backgrounds the 7800 was pretty darn good to use though.

 

Super Mario Bros. was revolutionary in this respect, but remember that the Famicom had already been on the market for a couple years before the release, and it didn't reach North America until 1986. (so it wasn't present durring the initial limited "test market" release of the NES in '85) So the 7800 would have a few years on the market before this genre even became an issue. (Ninja Golf is also a notably siddcroller, and the best example of a unique title for the system as well)

 

 

I think Tempest would have been a good thing to port over, sure it was older, but none of the home consoles had it yet, and it's really a cool game that never really looses it's charm. (assuming the 7800 could handle a good port of it)

Likewise the Williams stuff would be great, and don't forget Sinistar!

 

Besides programming difficulties, there was the sound limitations (which granted, sounded better than the 2600 with the same chip, and some games like Mario Bros. sounded better than the 5200 versions as well), POKEY helped a lot, but was fairly expensive to included on-cart (I have no idea why they didn't add it to the 7800 board its self...). However, it may have been possible to produce a POKEY audio adaptor cartridge, meaning you'd only need to buy it once. (possibly pack-in with a game)

GUMBY (or "mini GUMBY", and finally just "mini") may have been a good option, and was aparently similar in performace to POKEY (albeit without the unnecessary features POKEY included), though I'm not sure about this, and I'm aldo unsure of what advantage it would have over the aformentioned adaptor cart. (assuming that was possible)

 

The NES and 7800 had about the same amout of addressible cartridge ROM btw, though the 7800 never used bankswitching. Though with the "Neo Geo" comment I think Gorf was referring to added RAM on cart rather than ROM, but I'm not sure.

 

 

We would have three console makers, Nintendo, Sony and Atari. I firmly believe that if it had released in 84, the NES would have stuck around but the MS failed anyway, and Atari would have been sticking with it.

 

I still don't see how the MS failed, the launch titles I have now are way better than the NES titles imho.

 

Yeah, the SMES came in after the NES was getting established and didn't have the right marketing to break through Nintendo. (it wasn't until 1990/'91 with new marketing with the Genesis that this changed, and initially the marketing was off there too until Michel Katz showed up fullowed by Tom Kalinske aster Katz was scapegoated for not selling "only" 500k units in the first 6 months after launch... instead of the 1 million SoJ demanded)

Of couyrse the SMS had been very succesful in Europe (and Brazil) where Nintenso did not so well, being the only console to really compete with the home computer gaming market which had remained so strong there iirc.

 

 

Gorf, I've read several things that could have been changed on the 7800 to take better advantage of MIRIA and make the system run better in general. One was to include a dedicated video bus with 16 kB of DRAM (similar to the ColecoVision, and Sega SG-1000/MS etc), and another 16k of main RAM (which I think was more cost effective than using a 4 kB chip by this time), of course this would drive up cost, so it might not be able to keep the launch price below $150 as planned.

There were also several other comments in this thread: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=77312

including a 256 width resolution mode.

 

Also, Ive read that the 6502C was rated at a max of 4 MHz, so what couldn't/didn't they run it any faster? (ie 3.58 MHz) FOr the A8 serise it made sense for compatibility (though I suppose they could have had a "fast" mode available to be activated by software)

http://www.cpu-museum.com/650x_e.htm

Otherwise, switching to a 65C02 would allow higher speeds as well, though this would of course add to cost. (and be improactical for a 1984 release)

Edited June 3, 2009 by kool kitty89

[DracIsBack]

For you guys mentioning RPG's, I really don't think they were particularly popular outside Japan (at least in the JRPG style), they did OK in the US, not huge

 

I guess it depends on how you define "RPG". Certainly Zelda was a huge adventure game.

 

Platformers were huge though, and one problem the 7800 had was doing background layers. (the nature of Maria made it tricky to program scroll layers, it was not like contemporary consoles and would be especially difficult to port over games to the 7800 due to differences like this and the lack of hardware sprites)

 

The issue specifically is that the 7800 devotes its energy to the sprites (and can move a lot relative to SMS and NES), whereas the NES devotes its energy to the tiles in the background.

 

This doesn't mean that it cannot be done however! I've seen a few too many "I heard the 7800 can't scroll"; "can't do platformer" type posts. SCRAPYARD DOG definitely shows its possible, even if it's more work and it won't rival to most detailed side-scrollers.

 

though the 7800 never used bankswitching.

 

It definitely did use bankswitching, though games in 1986, 1987 and most of 1988 did not. Later games regularly used it. SCRAPYARD DOG, MIDNIGHT MUTANTS, COMMANDO, IKARI WARRIORS, BASKETBRAWL, NINJA GOLF and others are all 128K games. ALIEN BRIGADE is actually 144K

 

There were also plans to do bigger games at various points, but Atari curtailed that.

Edited June 2, 2009 by DracIsBack

[GroovyBee]

Platformers were huge though, and one problem the 7800 had was doing background layers. (the nature of Maria made it tricky to program scroll layers, it was not like contemporary consoles and would be especially difficult to port over games to the 7800 due to differences like this and the lack of hardware sprites)

The 7800 doesn't have a traditional bitmap memory display. By games generating display lists in software they are effectively "creating" lists of hardware sprites. However some basic computations are required to split the sprite if it spans two zones. MARIAs holey DMA modes were definitely created with sprites in mind.

[gdement]

Some time back I looked up a bunch of MSX games on youtube. Ever since seeing those, I think scrolling is overrated. Even if we assume the 7800 "can't" handle scrollers (which I disagree with), it still wouldn't do much damage to the machine's ability to run large adventure games.

 

Sound is a genuine problem. I have no idea how good or cheap the "gumby" chip was meant to be, but presumably it would have addressed the problem, if it was cheap enough to actually use. It's a shame they didn't get it into the console though.

 

The NES had a slow start. It didn't get a full-scale release until mid-86, and the early games were mostly stuff like Popeye and Urban Champion. The bar wasn't really raised until 1987 when lots of big adventure games became well known and popular. By that time, a successfully launched 7800 would be getting the same type of games from either Atari or 3rd parties. Our 7800 didn't get those games because it didn't have enough market share to be worth the investment, and Tramiel wouldn't pay for Atari to do that type of project themselves.

[atarian63]

It would have been entering an incredibly flooded marketplace. Even with the cancellations of the 5200 and Colecovision. People were actually kind of fine with the 2600, and the 7800 was not as large an improvement as the Master System and NES would be. I think people were kind of arcaded out with DK, Pac-Man, etc., at that time. The other problem is that Atari was in financial peril around that time, when Tramiel came in. Did they even have the capital to properly back the system?

in 1984 people were far from arcaded out. Arcades still ruled the gaming world in 84.Star wars and Gauntlet were yet to come.Adventure games like zelda were years away. People in 84 still thought in terms of arcades. It could have done quite well as is show by the quality releases we see here at atariage. The system could have gotten a larger base,then devs would have written for it. Adventure games would have come along in their own time. It certainly could have been a large player.

Edited June 3, 2009 by atarian63

[kool kitty89]

For you guys mentioning RPG's, I really don't think they were particularly popular outside Japan (at least in the JRPG style), they did OK in the US, not huge

 

I guess it depends on how you define "RPG". Certainly Zelda was a huge adventure game.

 

The issue specifically is that the 7800 devotes its energy to the sprites (and can move a lot relative to SMS and NES), whereas the NES devotes its energy to the tiles in the background.

 

This doesn't mean that it cannot be done however! I've seen a few too many "I heard the 7800 can't scroll"; "can't do platformer" type posts. SCRAPYARD DOG definitely shows its possible, even if it's more work and it won't rival to most detailed side-scrollers.

 

It definitely did use bankswitching, though games in 1986, 1987 and most of 1988 did not. Later games regularly used it. SCRAPYARD DOG, MIDNIGHT MUTANTS, COMMANDO, IKARI WARRIORS, BASKETBRAWL, NINJA GOLF and others are all 128K games. ALIEN BRIGADE is actually 144K

 

There were also plans to do bigger games at various points, but Atari curtailed that.

 

Yeah, if you include games like Adventure (on the 2600), Zelda, and PC games like Space quest as "RPGs" then, yes, they were popular, but I don't think these really fit the "RPG" genre, though Zelda II would fit into the "Action RPG" category. These are adventure games, and were certainly popular at the time. (along with point and click graphic adventures like Maniac mansion and Monkey Island, though these were mainly on home computers rather than consoles; of course preceded by the old text based games like Zork)

 

Yes, scrolling is certainly possible, albeit more limited, what I meant specifically is that it was more work to do these, and in particular, more difficult to port such games form other platforms common in the late 80's.

 

I was thinking though, and realized that SHMUPs should work really well on the 7800, the high object/sprite count possible (without flicker) being a significant advantage, especially in games with simple black/starfield backgrounds. (of course Xevious is an example of such a game that has a scrolling background as well)

 

And thanks for the info on bankswitching, I was mistaken.

 

 

in 1984 people were far from arcaded out. Arcades still ruled the gaming world in 84.Star wars and Gauntlet were yet to come.Adventure games like zelda were years away. People in 84 still thought in terms of arcades. It could have done quite well as is show by the quality releases we see here at atariage. The system could have gotten a larger base,then devs would have written for it. Adventure games would have come along in their own time. It certainly could have been a large player.

 

The vector based starware game was released in '83, and I beleive had ports to both the A8-bit and 5200. (in 1984 iirc)

 

Good point on arcade games in general though, the 7800 was definitely strongest at this genre (except for some of the later sidscrolling sypes, though at least Double Dragon is a poor port in any regard and not the best the system could do). Particularly the ones with simple backgrounds but lots of objects, robotron being a prime example. Sinistar would have been really nice to have on the system, and it would have promoted its strengths. (though sound could be an issue without POKEY -or GUMBY/etc) Tempest was a bit old, but still great, and hadn't been released on a home console yet.

 

Yes adventure games would be good, particularly with conversions of the popular adventure games on computers at the time. (of course the 2600 has Adventure from their pioneering days)

 

On the "glut" of other systems on the market, it should be noted tha most (including the 2 major ones Mattel and Coleco) pulled out of the market durring the crash, leaving little competition prior to Nintendo's entrance. SO except for the surplus of old console stock being purged from stock at low prices, there were no current market competitors, meaning they had an opening, albeit in a hostile market. (though judging by the reviews and reactions to the 7800 it had a pretty good chance with consumers, distributors would be another issue however) And, of course, they would be competing with the computer gaming market. (the C64 obviously being th biggest factor there) Price would be a big plus though, as it remained for gaming consoles for a long time. (though today you could build a pretty nice gaming PC for the price of a 360 or PS3)

 

For distribution they (either Trameil, or Warner if they kept it) could try to get some of their old distributors to take it, but this is doubtful (at least until it shows tangible promise), they could look for alternate vendors not previously used, or those that had/were selling Atari computers as they wouldn't have the same (personal) negative experience, though probably still wary.

Finally, if distribution was too limited there's always the possibility of mail order. (though this would require a greater advertizing effort, which Tramiel would be hard pressed for, given his intrests and limited funds)

Though it could be cheaper through mail order. (with the shipping and distribution costs from this method, selling direct from the manufacturer could end up being the same or cheaper than through stores) Sothey might even beable to make more profits per unit in the mail order method due to cutting out the "middle man." (maybe even enough to mitigate advertizing costs)

Of course, software sales is always where the moey is for consoles, and with the added copy/license protection mechanism for the 7800, there would be more control over licensing and 3rd party developers as well. (one of the major problems often sited fo rthe 2600, though technically the Master system had no such lockout system)

 

 

gdement,

Sound was definitely an issue, I have no idea whay GCC hadn't included a POKEY in the design, even late into it. I stil think a POKEY cart would be the best solution, making it a one time buy to enhance games (technically games should still be able to run without it too, kind of like the FM chip of the Sega Mark III). They could even have integrated it into later systems (though, again this should have been done from the start), which exactly what was done with Sega's Master System in Japan. (functionally identical to the Mark III). Additionally the TIA sound could be used as well allowing brader sound capabilities than the A8 or 5200, and allowing better competition with the NES's audio capabilities. (in some respects being superior)

Edited June 4, 2009 by kool kitty89

[atarian63]

For you guys mentioning RPG's, I really don't think they were particularly popular outside Japan (at least in the JRPG style), they did OK in the US, not huge

 

I guess it depends on how you define "RPG". Certainly Zelda was a huge adventure game.

 

The issue specifically is that the 7800 devotes its energy to the sprites (and can move a lot relative to SMS and NES), whereas the NES devotes its energy to the tiles in the background.

 

This doesn't mean that it cannot be done however! I've seen a few too many "I heard the 7800 can't scroll"; "can't do platformer" type posts. SCRAPYARD DOG definitely shows its possible, even if it's more work and it won't rival to most detailed side-scrollers.

 

It definitely did use bankswitching, though games in 1986, 1987 and most of 1988 did not. Later games regularly used it. SCRAPYARD DOG, MIDNIGHT MUTANTS, COMMANDO, IKARI WARRIORS, BASKETBRAWL, NINJA GOLF and others are all 128K games. ALIEN BRIGADE is actually 144K

 

There were also plans to do bigger games at various points, but Atari curtailed that.

 

Yeah, if you include games like Adventure (on the 2600), Zelda, and PC games like Space quest as "RPGs" then, yes, they were popular, but I don't think these really fit the "RPG" genre, though Zelda II would fit into the "Action RPG" category. These are adventure games, and were certainly popular at the time. (along with point and click graphic adventures like Maniac mansion and Monkey Island, though these were mainly on home computers rather than consoles; of course preceded by the old text based games like Zork)

 

Yes, scrolling is certainly possible, albeit more limited, what I meant specifically is that it was more work to do these, and in particular, more difficult to port such games form other platforms common in the late 80's.

 

I was thinking though, and realized that SHMUPs should work really well on the 7800, the high object/sprite count possible (without flicker) being a significant advantage, especially in games with simple black/starfield backgrounds. (of course Xevious is an example of such a game that has a scrolling background as well)

 

And thanks for the info on bankswitching, I was mistaken.

 

 

in 1984 people were far from arcaded out. Arcades still ruled the gaming world in 84.Star wars and Gauntlet were yet to come.Adventure games like zelda were years away. People in 84 still thought in terms of arcades. It could have done quite well as is show by the quality releases we see here at atariage. The system could have gotten a larger base,then devs would have written for it. Adventure games would have come along in their own time. It certainly could have been a large player.

 

The vector based starware game was released in '83, and I beleive had ports to both the A8-bit and 5200. (in 1984 iirc)

 

Good point on arcade games in general though, the 7800 was definitely strongest at this genre (except for some of the later sidscrolling sypes, though at least Double Dragon is a poor port in any regard and not the best the system could do). Particularly the ones with simple backgrounds but lots of objects, robotron being a prime example. Sinistar would have been really nice to have on the system, and it would have promoted its strengths. (though sound could be an issue without POKEY -or GUMBY/etc) Tempest was a bit old, but still great, and hadn't been released on a home console yet.

 

Yes adventure games would be good, particularly with conversions of the popular adventure games on computers at the time. (of course the 2600 has Adventure from their pioneering days)

 

On the "glut" of other systems on the market, it should be noted tha most (including the 2 major ones Mattel and Coleco) pulled out of the market durring the crash, leaving little competition prior to Nintendo's entrance. SO except for the surplus of old console stock being purged from stock at low prices, there were no current market competitors, meaning they had an opening, albeit in a hostile market. (though judging by the reviews and reactions to the 7800 it had a pretty good chance with consumers, distributors would be another issue however) And, of course, they would be competing with the computer gaming market. (the C64 obviously being th biggest factor there) Price would be a big plus though, as it remained for gaming consoles for a long time. (though today you could build a pretty nice gaming PC for the price of a 360 or PS3)

 

For distribution they (either Trameil, or Warner if they kept it) could try to get some of their old distributors to take it, but this is doubtful (at least until it shows tangible promise), they could look for alternate vendors not previously used, or those that had/were selling Atari computers as they wouldn't have the same (personal) negative experience, though probably still wary.

Finally, if distribution was too limited there's always the possibility of mail order. (though this would require a greater advertizing effort, which Tramiel would be hard pressed for, given his intrests and limited funds)

Though it could be cheaper through mail order. (with the shipping and distribution costs from this method, selling direct from the manufacturer could end up being the same or cheaper than through stores) Sothey might even beable to make more profits per unit in the mail order method due to cutting out the "middle man." (maybe even enough to mitigate advertizing costs)

Of course, software sales is always where the moey is for consoles, and with the added copy/license protection mechanism for the 7800, there would be more control over licensing and 3rd party developers as well. (one of the major problems often sited fo rthe 2600, though technically the Master system had no such lockout system)

 

 

gdement,

Sound was definitely an issue, I have no idea whay GCC hadn't included a POKEY in the design, even late into it. I stil think a POKEY cart would be the best solution, making it a one time buy to enhance games (technically games should still be able to run without it too, kind of like the FM chip of the Sega Mark III). They could even have integrated it into later systems (though, again this should have been done from the start), which exactly what was done with Sega's Master System in Japan. (functionally identical to the Mark III). Additionally the TIA sound could be used as well allowing brader sound capabilities than the A8 or 5200, and allowing better competition with the NES's audio capabilities. (in some respects being superior)

I stand corrected. I even own a sit down Star wars and yes the copyright says 83.

Yes you are right, for a time there was a window. We used to have people come into the store asking for the 7800, knowing it was coming someday.The initial reaction when it finally was released was very good. Just needed some fresh software. That's where that windows could have helped. Arcades in 84 and gradually scrollers and rpg's from Pc's. Those would have been cheap to license, epyx and others come to mind.

Edited June 4, 2009 by atarian63

[cybercylon]

We can speculate all we want I guess. If I am going to speculate, I am going to assume that the 7800 gets released under Warner and Tramiel never enters the picture.

 

Back in 1984, there wasn't much in the way of side scrollers and platformers in the US market (I can't even think of any), so most of the games would have been arcade ports that the average US gamer would have related to. And soon after launch, you would have to assume arcade ports current to the time were also going to be released in addition to the repeats that were in the launch lineup. No doubt that the gameplay of Ms. PacMan is the best on the 7800, but would that have convinced 5200 owners to go upgrade? Probably not, so I assume that arcade ports current to the time would have been released.

 

That alone would have probably kept the 7800 afloat during the tough times, especially if it had a good price point. A lot of us would have loved arcade ports that don't flicker, for example.

 

What happens in the long run? Assuming there was a profit to be made, then maybe you see carts with more ram and sound chips so ports of later games like Rolling Thunder and Gaunlet are fairly decent. Assuming some success, there would be some third party support.

 

Along comes the NES and SMS. Now with three consoles on the market, would Nintendo been in any position to bully third parties around? Perhaps not. You might have had a market were the people who want platformers and rpgs flock to the other two while people who prefer decent arcade ports with actual colors in addition to no flicker go the 7800. I think there would have been success for all three because they cater to different markets. Then by the time you hit 1988 or 1989, Atari has it's next system out. My guess is that the SMS still may have suffered to some degree, so maybe the Genesis would have been made by Sega but marketed by Atari (wasn't there a rumor that Atari was approached by Sega?).

 

It's all of would have, could have, should have, but unless someone here has access to cortexophan (that's for you Fringe fans out there) and is able to see multiple realities, we will never know.

[+Allan]

http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/cons...7800/7800-20th/

 

Allan

[Video]

I think it would have done hella better. I mean, first, it's got teh 2600 library backing it, but by release in 86, many people had sold their 2600 collections in favor of a Nintendo. And if they released in 84, they could have worried about a larger cart to compete with games like Mario and Zelda. It's not that the 7800 couldn't handle those types of games, just that the cheap bastards running it wouldn't work on bigger carts (probably partially due to the system not being as popular, which was due in large part to it being released late)