bohoki Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 anybody know how the system tells it is using a tracball? i would love too fool it so i could use the buttons for shift in pole position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 anybody know how the system tells it is using a tracball? i would love too fool it so i could use the buttons for shift in pole position It's game dependent. Each game detects by itself whether it wants to support track ball or normal joystick. Super Breakout does the detection when you press the START button to begin the game. Pole Position does the detection when you turn on the machine with the cartridge plugged in. Since I made the digital joystick adapter which automatically gets detected as a trackball device-- I needed to way to make it think it was an analog joystick when I had the Atari Paddles plugged in instead of a PC so the trick was to move the Paddle from right to left when pressing start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohoki Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 anybody know how the system tells it is using a tracball? i would love too fool it so i could use the buttons for shift in pole position It's game dependent. Each game detects by itself whether it wants to support track ball or normal joystick. Super Breakout does the detection when you press the START button to begin the game. Pole Position does the detection when you turn on the machine with the cartridge plugged in. Since I made the digital joystick adapter which automatically gets detected as a trackball device-- I needed to way to make it think it was an analog joystick when I had the Atari Paddles plugged in instead of a PC so the trick was to move the Paddle from right to left when pressing start. but how does the game know there is a tracball plugged in i have a theory that involves the 5v on pin 12 cause normal controllers dont use it but the tracball does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 anybody know how the system tells it is using a tracball? i would love too fool it so i could use the buttons for shift in pole position It's game dependent. Each game detects by itself whether it wants to support track ball or normal joystick. Super Breakout does the detection when you press the START button to begin the game. Pole Position does the detection when you turn on the machine with the cartridge plugged in. Since I made the digital joystick adapter which automatically gets detected as a trackball device-- I needed to way to make it think it was an analog joystick when I had the Atari Paddles plugged in instead of a PC so the trick was to move the Paddle from right to left when pressing start. but how does the game know there is a tracball plugged in i have a theory that involves the 5v on pin 12 cause normal controllers dont use it but the tracball does I would say it's the POT GND which is +5V also but at pin 9. The stock controllers don't even use pin 13 (it's NC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohoki Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 anybody know how the system tells it is using a tracball? i would love too fool it so i could use the buttons for shift in pole position It's game dependent. Each game detects by itself whether it wants to support track ball or normal joystick. Super Breakout does the detection when you press the START button to begin the game. Pole Position does the detection when you turn on the machine with the cartridge plugged in. Since I made the digital joystick adapter which automatically gets detected as a trackball device-- I needed to way to make it think it was an analog joystick when I had the Atari Paddles plugged in instead of a PC so the trick was to move the Paddle from right to left when pressing start. but how does the game know there is a tracball plugged in i have a theory that involves the 5v on pin 12 cause normal controllers dont use it but the tracball does I would say it's the POT GND which is +5V also but at pin 9. The stock controllers don't even use pin 13 (it's NC). just to get us all on the same page http://emu-docs.org/Atari%205200/Controllers/5200cont.html i;m just so perplexed how the tracball actually works like say with missile command it is an absolute position game(like starwars,gorf,superbreakout,kaboom) you roll the ball to the upper right and it stays there so in order to do that a joystick would have to stay in that position to remain in that location but with centipede you roll the ball to the right and stop your cursor stops if you held the joystick in that direction you would continue in that direction does anybody understand the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 TrakBall Guide.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohoki Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 (edited) wow that is realy some fun information i'm a bit confused by what's meant by the console holds low for about 10 frames i assume the pot common so are they refering to the "tracball controller unit" in the "trackball controller" (their is a tracball componenent there is (the encoder) and then there is the (interface to the 5200) my goal is to convince the system i am using a tracball to see if i coudl play missile command with my "8-way joystick" i am assuming in the game cartridge it has a changeover for controller scheme i wish i could talk to the person who did the digital conversion of gorf to see if they just set the game to treat everything as a tracball cause i guess when the game has its control switchover to the tracball it recieves pulses of left right up and down and is is the frequenty rate of the signals that tell it what to do so when you roll the ball to the left it sends a left,left,left... at a certain rate and there is a threshhold deadzone to prevent slow ball movement from looking like left,stop,left,stop so a super slow roll will do nothing and a slightly less slow roll will do a left,left,left,left... cause its the game itself that say when missile command is in tracball mode decides that no more movement signal aka "delta direction X and Y" just leaves the cursor where it was instead of flinging it back to center wow this is getting really complicated to just sucker the games into switching over to tracball mode and am wondering if it would not really help since even if i could fool the games and use my 8 way every direction would be interpreted as full on fastest ball whack spin delta v freq so missile command would end up just the same flying up and left just as fast either mode when i press up and left on my joystick unless it has some kind of internal trackball limited speed limit i cant thank you enough for that valuable insite into the internal workings of atari i wish i coudl get this doodle on a teeshirt Edited September 3, 2009 by bohoki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Sometime, when I am bored, I'll pull out the t-shirt Dan Kramer gave me, it has that logo on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodos8 Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I liked the part where it discusses using two trak-balls on a game. Also, why doesn't Dan Kramer's business card have an e-mail or web address listed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Also, why doesn't Dan Kramer's business card have an e-mail or web address listed? If you really want to talk to Dan, send a message through ebay, his handle is dkpins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 wow that is realy some fun information i'm a bit confused by what's meant by the console holds low for about 10 frames i assume the pot common so are they refering to the "tracball controller unit" in the "trackball controller" (their is a tracball componenent there is (the encoder) and then there is the (interface to the 5200) my goal is to convince the system i am using a tracball to see if i coudl play missile command with my "8-way joystick" i am assuming in the game cartridge it has a changeover for controller scheme i wish i could talk to the person who did the digital conversion of gorf to see if they just set the game to treat everything as a tracball cause i guess when the game has its control switchover to the tracball it recieves pulses of left right up and down and is is the frequenty rate of the signals that tell it what to do so when you roll the ball to the left it sends a left,left,left... at a certain rate and there is a threshhold deadzone to prevent slow ball movement from looking like left,stop,left,stop so a super slow roll will do nothing and a slightly less slow roll will do a left,left,left,left... cause its the game itself that say when missile command is in tracball mode decides that no more movement signal aka "delta direction X and Y" just leaves the cursor where it was instead of flinging it back to center wow this is getting really complicated to just sucker the games into switching over to tracball mode and am wondering if it would not really help since even if i could fool the games and use my 8 way every direction would be interpreted as full on fastest ball whack spin delta v freq so missile command would end up just the same flying up and left just as fast either mode when i press up and left on my joystick unless it has some kind of internal trackball limited speed limit i cant thank you enough for that valuable insite into the internal workings of atari i wish i coudl get this doodle on a teeshirt What console are they referring to-- there's the GTIA register called CONSOL and then there's the trackball console and the A5200 console. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic George 2K3 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Nice image design. Could work with a tie-dye shirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigO Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Does the 5200 in fact "know" that a trackball controller is connected? I've looked at the output voltage signal on an oscilloscope while repairing a trackball. It outputs a DC voltage (per axis) that varies in level according to how fast the ball is spinning. The variable output changes the rate at which the capacitor charges, thus simulating the variation in capacitor charge time due to the potentiometer (variable resistance) in the standard charger. I believe the 10 frame pull down referenced in the document is necessary to "center" the trackball. It will output a voltage/current that represents no motion when the ball isn't spinning. The procedure described effectively prevents the ball spinning from being detected, thus lets the console "null out" the inputs. I imagine a game that is specifically designed to work with the trackball would store an offset value per axis in memory that lets the game know what input value to treat as neutral/no motion. I read the document to be emphasizing the fact that the output is proportional to the rate of spin of the ball, not just "spinning"/"not spinning". Re: to convince the system i am using a tracball to see if i coudl play missile command with my "8-way joystick" Are you referring to a digital 8 way joystick? If so, I don't think the 5200 is going to know what to do with that unless some sort of adapter is used. The 5200 is looking for analog inputs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Allan Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Cool. I've never seen this one before. More stuff from the junk closet or was this something from Curt? Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Does the 5200 in fact "know" that a trackball controller is connected? I've looked at the output voltage signal on an oscilloscope while repairing a trackball. It outputs a DC voltage (per axis) that varies in level according to how fast the ball is spinning. The variable output changes the rate at which the capacitor charges, thus simulating the variation in capacitor charge time due to the potentiometer (variable resistance) in the standard charger. I believe the 10 frame pull down referenced in the document is necessary to "center" the trackball. It will output a voltage/current that represents no motion when the ball isn't spinning. The procedure described effectively prevents the ball spinning from being detected, thus lets the console "null out" the inputs. I imagine a game that is specifically designed to work with the trackball would store an offset value per axis in memory that lets the game know what input value to treat as neutral/no motion. I read the document to be emphasizing the fact that the output is proportional to the rate of spin of the ball, not just "spinning"/"not spinning". Re: to convince the system i am using a tracball to see if i coudl play missile command with my "8-way joystick" Are you referring to a digital 8 way joystick? If so, I don't think the 5200 is going to know what to do with that unless some sort of adapter is used. The 5200 is looking for analog inputs. The digital joystick adapter I made is detected as a trackball not as a standard A5200 controller. And I am not doing anything special but using +5V instead of POT GND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigO Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) The digital joystick adapter I made is detected as a trackball not as a standard A5200 controller. And I am not doing anything special but using +5V instead of POT GND. What are you using that detects and reports the attached controller type?I'd like to see that for myself and figure out what the detection scheme is for a future controller project. Edited September 7, 2009 by BigO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohoki Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) The digital joystick adapter I made is detected as a trackball not as a standard A5200 controller. And I am not doing anything special but using +5V instead of POT GND. What are you using that detects and reports the attached controller type?I'd like to see that for myself and figure out what the detection scheme is for a future controller project. well poop i just went and sealed my plugs with hot glue if its just as simple as using the 5 v instead of the pot common the system definatly tells the cart it is hooked to a tracball via the slight differences i mentioned about missile command also when a trac ball is attached pole position uses the a couple of the number keys to shift for high and low since you would really have to be a ballmaster to give a quick spin up and down doing left and right around a hairpin turn just got through soldering in a switch to change out the pot common with the +5 and yep it switched over i coudl tell cause pole position would only shift with the keys 1 and 7 but missile command as i thought shoots that cursor around at like mach 1 so it is still uncontrollable also i notice the center for pole position is inconsistant in tracball fooled mode i feel like such a tard i mean i was worried there was some kind of crazy id signal when all the 5200 knows if my pots are using +5 its a tracball it will be fun exploring the control differences with my now switchable joystick Edited September 7, 2009 by bohoki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigO Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) The digital joystick adapter I made is detected as a trackball not as a standard A5200 controller. And I am not doing anything special but using +5V instead of POT GND. What are you using that detects and reports the attached controller type?I'd like to see that for myself and figure out what the detection scheme is for a future controller project. well poop i just went and sealed my plugs with hot glue if its just as simple as using the 5 v instead of the pot common the system definatly tells the cart it is hooked to a tracball via the slight differences i mentioned about missile command also when a trac ball is attached pole position uses the a couple of the number keys to shift for high and low since you would really have to be a ballmaster to give a quick spin up and down doing left and right around a hairpin turn I don't think I've played Pole Position on the 5200. So you're saying that the number keys don't work for shifting gears when using a standard controller? cause i guess when the game has its control switchover to the tracball it recieves pulses of left right up and down and is is the frequenty rate of the signals that tell it what to do so when you roll the ball to the left it sends a left,left,left... at a certain rate and there is a threshhold deadzone to prevent slow ball movement from looking like left,stop,left,stop so a super slow roll will do nothing and a slightly less slow roll will do a left,left,left,left... cause its the game itself that say when missile command is in tracball mode decides that no more movement signal aka "delta direction X and Y" just leaves the cursor where it was instead of flinging it back to center Based on my observations using an oscilloscope (years ago), the 5200 trackball does not send pulses as you surmise. It doesn't send a "left, left, left" series of pulses it sends a DC analog voltage (or current) that corresponds to how fast the ball is spinning. "No more movement" is based on the signal being at a certain voltage level. That neutral output voltage I believe is calibrated within the software by the procedure described in that document. It's been quite a while since I played Missile Command on the 5200 and I only did that while developing two custom controllers. It sounds like you're saying that when you play with a joystick, the targeting cursor directly tracks on the position of the controller which in turn means that if you return the controller to center, the targeting cursor returns to center. And, when playing with the trackball, the cursor stays put when you stop spinning the ball. That would indeed indicate that Missile Command knows which controller is hooked up. Edited September 7, 2009 by BigO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohoki Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 with a regular stick pole position uses the up and down to shift the numbers only become active during tracball play and with missile command in joystick mode the cursor is centered when i hit left it shoots over left super fast and when i let loose if instantly returns to center with joystick in tb mode it shoots to the left but when i let go it stays over there and when i press right it heads right at a pretty darn fast rate and stays when i let the joy return to center i can kind of play if i tap the joystick in directions like maybe it it is up for like 10 milliseconds it will only go halfway up the screen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 The digital joystick adapter I made is detected as a trackball not as a standard A5200 controller. And I am not doing anything special but using +5V instead of POT GND. What are you using that detects and reports the attached controller type?I'd like to see that for myself and figure out what the detection scheme is for a future controller project. Here's what I have gathered-- Atari 5200 console can tell if something is using +5V or +5V from Pot GND either by switching the POT GND on/off via GTIA CONSOL register or senses it by some other means (someone with schematics can determine if CONSOL register pins are enabling/disabling POT GND line). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic George 2K3 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Feeling groovy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Feeling groovy... Looks good-- hand made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohoki Posted September 9, 2009 Author Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) Feeling groovy... Looks good-- hand made? yea is it just a photomanip or is it real cause i think i'll print it out real big and cut it into a stencil does anybody have gorf and a trackball? i'd love to ask some questions Edited September 9, 2009 by bohoki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodos8 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Feeling groovy... I'd pay good money for one of those t-shirts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.golden.ax Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Feeling groovy... Hey if at least 32 people want one.... I can get that done. AX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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