7800 RPG Thread. It all starts here!

[jrok]

Given the concept (which I think could be pretty neat) one thought I had was that, although the action takes place in various time periods, perhaps it could all take place in the same, well, "place" (as in the "Back to the Future" series.) As the players time travel, they can see how the various areas they explore change and evolve over time, so that there's always that element of familiarity balanced with something new. It could make for some interesting logic puzzles too, where certain actions you take in the past directly shape and effect the future time frames. You thwart a plot to assassinate the mayor in 1926, but when you jump forward to 1952 you find that he went on to become a ruthless dictator, with posters of him hung everywhere like Kim Jong Il. Or maybe you nuke a massive boulder in the Paleozoic era, allowing settlers in the 1600's to expand into an area they otherwise would have avoided. Or how about if you travel back to the middle ages and trade a modern 21st century device for something you need in the moment, like a bow and arrow, accidentally sparking the information age a few centuries too early. You return to the "present" and instead find a bizarre "future" that merges medieval culture with sci-fi technology.

 

I realize this sort of mechanic would get a little hectic if taken to its extremes, but it might be an interesting way to approach design, with the world dynamically changing according to the actions of both you and your enemy. It would also provide some opportunities for humor, I'd imagine, with recurring characters popping up as "ancestors" throughout every time period: "Bob Johnson" is a bastard in the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, the Industrial Revolution and the Space Age... Bob Johnson is, has been and always will be a bastard.

Edited October 26, 2009 by jrok

[kroogur]

Given the concept (which I think could be pretty neat) one thought I had was that, although the action takes place in various time periods, perhaps it could all take place in the same, well, "place" (as in the "Back to the Future" series.) As the players time travel, they can see how the various areas they explore change and evolve over time, so that there's always that element of familiarity balanced with something new. It could make for some interesting logic puzzles too, where certain actions you take in the past directly shape and effect the future time frames. You thwart a plot to assassinate the mayor in 1926, but when you jump forward to 1952 you find that he went on to become a ruthless dictator, with posters of him hung everywhere like Kim Jong Il. Or maybe you nuke a massive boulder in the Paleozoic era, allowing settlers in the 1600's to expand into an area they otherwise would have avoided. Or how about if you travel back to the middle ages and trade a modern 21st century device for something you need in the moment, like a bow and arrow, accidentally sparking the information age a few centuries too early. You return to the "present" and instead find a bizarre "future" that merges medieval culture with sci-fi technology.

 

I realize this sort of mechanic would get a little hectic if taken to its extremes, but it might be an interesting way to approach design, with the world dynamically changing according to the actions of both you and your enemy. It would also provide some opportunities for humor, I'd imagine, with recurring characters popping up as "ancestors" throughout every time period: "Bob Johnson" is a bastard in the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, the Industrial Revolution and the Space Age... Bob Johnson is, has been and always will be a bastard.

 

 

I like that! kinda like the Sliders TV series. I will be putting pen to paper tonight and jotting down more ideas.

[MrBeefy]

Anymore news on this yet?

[spiffyone]

So this will be the Atari 7800's FIRST RPG? I can tell you right now, if it has even an occasional cutscene I guarantee I will buy this. You know, the kind with a picture on the top half of the screen and white text over a black background on the bottom half (like in the MegaMan games for NES). That alone would make me want the game.

The gameplay style has been decided to be similar to Zelda, which is the same basic style as Midnight Mutants. So it would be either the 2nd, or the 0th, depending if you call Zelda an RPG.

 

I answered this way back in the original topic:

 

Legend of Zelda is NOT an RPG series. It's an action/adventure series. Although quite close, they are NOT the same thing.

 

RPGs are primarily focused on character customization and/or creation and that revolves around the usage of stats/lvls., etc. It is not simply "playing a role" as every game has that when you get down to it. It's about creating and/or customizing a somewhat or wholly unique character's attributes based on decisions and how you play the game. Even JRPGs, which are less customizable than their western counterparts have quite a good deal of unique character customization based on lvls. of attack, magic, how often you engage in combat and therefore gain "points", which items you find to boost or lower attributes, etc. It's just that the gameplay is more linear in JRPGs, and less all encompassing as concerns choices, than the WRPGs.

 

Action/adventure games are simply the merger of action gameplay with some tropes found in the adventure game genre (exploration, environmental and/or logic puzzles, item/inventory management, etc.). The first game of this sort was actually the Atari VCS/2600 game Adventure, which, although titled that way, was really the first action/adventure (on the box art, iirc, labeled as "arcade adventure"). Erroneously thought to be the first "RPG" video game on home consoles, but it really isn't although it served some inspiration in that genre. Heck, Adventure itself, let's not forget, was simply an attempt to take the text based Advent, add sprite graphics to it, and real time control and combat ala arcade games, and put it on a console. Thus was the action/adventure game born. LoZ is directly inspired by Atari VCS/2600 Adventure.

 

There is ONE RPG in the LoZ series, and that's Zelda II. A radical departure from the series, you'll note that it's the ONLY game in the series that plays that way, and Miyamoto went right back to the action/adventure formula due to the outcry from fans.

 

So...this game, if it takes after the classic LoZ, and Midnight Mutants (which took after LoZ too, and thus, in a way, Atari Adventure), it really isn't an RPG but an action/adventure. If it isn't stat based, and isn't focused primarily on character creation/customization with everything else serving that purpose, it isn't an RPG as far as video game genre classification goes. And NO, before you state it, LoZ heart containers do NOT count as character customization, nor does entering a name for Link count as character creation/customization.

 

It's an action/adventure. As such...it's like...maybe the third action/adventure on this platform ( Midnight Mutants and Impossible Mission make two, and this game makes three). Hopefully it'll be a good one like MM.

[horseboy]

I agree about the Zelda thing. To me the traditional RPGs are turn based like Final Fantasy style. I am excited to see anything you guys churn out here, but I would love to see a turn based rpg.

[MrBeefy]

What about Castlevania II for NES would that be considered action/adventure or RPG?

 

Honestly if you go buy customization of characters I'm not sure you could throw many of the Final Fantasy games in as RPGs after the initial few (pick your job and go from there). Later ones have had characters that learn certain moves after a certain level I'm not sure I'd say that there is much customization. If you look at Zelda I'd say him gathering his various items or whatever would be the equivalent of leveling up as it comes after time fighting. Granted no true leveling up though.

 

I think Zelda is kinda hazy when it comes to being an RPG. I think a better example would be Secret of Mana, plays like an action adventure, but has the leveling up that is typical in RPG's.

 

And I'd argue that if Adventure is considered the first true RPG then there is nothing wrong with calling Zelda an RPG. All depends on perception.

[spiffyone]

What about Castlevania II for NES would that be considered action/adventure or RPG?

 

The first games (Vampire Killer, Castlevania) were action games (platforming, combat). Simon's Quest (Castlevania II) was a departure into action/adventure territory, something that the series didn't come back to until Symphony of the Night.

Just like the later SotN, Simon's Quest is an action/adventure with some RPG elements. The RPG aspect was not the primary focus of the game. It was there, and it was important, but not of primary importance. Rather, the primary focus was on exploration of the environment, a trope that would be later borrowed in Symphony of the Night and onwards, transforming the series to the Metroid style action/adventure gameplay it's known for today (Metroidvania )

 

And, really, the only RPG element was the increase of health points after collecting enough hearts from fallen enemies. NPC conversations are a staple of adventure games too, not just RPGs. Purchasing items are a staple of both action/adventure games and RPGs and adventure games, so it's not unique to one over the other. Over time the Castlevania games did add HP for enemy characters, and items that changed stats, to the point where one could call the new games action/adventure games or action/RPGs. Again, the two hybrid genres are quite close...but what separates them is stat based gameplay as the primary focus. And all the Castlevania games I've played don't rely too heavily on the stats (they're there, but you don't actually NEED them in the game for the bulk of it, tbqh) I'd really fall on the side of action/adventure there.

 

Honestly if you go buy customization of characters I'm not sure you could throw many of the Final Fantasy games in as RPGs after the initial few (pick your job and go from there). Later ones have had characters that learn certain moves after a certain level I'm not sure I'd say that there is much customization.

 

I've already answered this away. JRPGs usually have less customization over characters, but it is there, albeit in a more linear behind the scenes fashion. The fact is that points gained in battle form the bulk of the customization process in JRPGs, as do buying specific weapons that take specific amounts of HP away from enemy characters. And the games are HEAVILY focused on this sort of stat building. The real key difference between WRPGs and JRPGs is that the customization process is far more extensive in the former, and more streamlined in the latter, but the customization aspect exists in both styles and even in JRPGs is heavier than you'd find in any other genre.

 

You have jobs in the early FF games, set jobs at that, but one player's gameplay experience doesn't usually match up with another's unless they both follow the same "gameplan" in terms of how to go about leveling up their characters. Unless you grind in a similar fashion, get the same type of items, use them the same way, etc., do the same sorts of things to get the right amount of experience points yourcharacters might end up with very different stats regardless of being in the same set job class.

 

If you look at Zelda I'd say him gathering his various items or whatever would be the equivalent of leveling up as it comes after time fighting

 

Not entirely true nor accurate for either action/adventures or RPGs. There are item purchases in shops and hidden items, after all. But, regardless, it's not stat based. If it isn't stat based in some way it simply is not an RPG. The RPG genre as concerns video games was based on old D&D pen and paper tabletop RPGs, where everything was basically a game of stats. That's why the genre, in terms of video games, focuses on stats. Action/adventures, on the other hand, really come from the basis of text adventure games (the original adventure games) tied with arcade action gameplay. The focus of adventure games is investigation, of which exploration of the environment is a key part. Action/adventures merged that with action gameplay tropes (whether direct combat or platforming or both).

 

In LoZ, as with all action/adventure games, the item usage doesn't so much as tie into the main character's customization option as it does opening up new areas of the world to explore.

 

Granted no true leveling up though.

 

Exactly. It's really more akin to finding specific items in an adventure game (either text or point-and-click) that allow you to explore the environment further. With the heart containers you either buy heart containers or earn them via defeating bosses but you don't increase via stats. And the most important thing when defeating bosses is getting a necessary item to further explore (hookshots, swords, etc.). Also, as in adventure games, you MUST have a specific type of item to progress through the game, and you MUST seek out that item via exploring the environment. In RPGs, this is often not the case, and even when it does exist it is not the primary focus of the game.

 

Again, LoZ, outside of Zelda II, has no real stat based leveling up system. It's not the focus of the game. It's not an RPG.

 

And I'd argue that if Adventure is considered the first true RPG then there is nothing wrong with calling Zelda an RPG. All depends on perception.

 

But Adventure is the first true action/adventure, not the first true RPG. Again, it's really all in the name: Adventure. That game itself was more of a console recreation of classic text adventure games than trying to implement RPG style gameplay into anything. There's no stats, it's all exploration based, and the key to the game is figuring out how to use items and when and where to use them. Occasionally you engage in combat. Action/adventure.

 

Regardless, I'm just hoping for a good game.

 

I'll also chime in and state that I hope the dev behind Adventure II for the 5200 comes around to make an Adventure III for the 7800. That would be really cool.

[spiffyone]

Jeez.

 

That was a long ass post. :!:

 

...

 

sorry about that. You know how some people are music genre geeks? That's how I am with games.

[MrBeefy]

Nah...I like good 'debate'. I'm with you though and hope for a great game! Maybe it'll have a blend like SoM as I loved how that game played.

[moycon]

I too was hoping this was going to be an old school, proper turn based RPG, but any adventuring type game on the 7800 sounds intriguing. Looking forward to hearing more about the development.

[j.m.ratkos]

kroogur and I have been hashing out some ideas and we should have the scenario back story up for your perusal in the next day or two.

[yuppicide]

I like the Zelda-ish idea, even though it's not really RPG if you ask me.

 

Like the avatar, JM.

[Shawn]

I like the Zelda-ish idea, even though it's not really RPG if you ask me.

 

Like the avatar, JM.

 

I also agree, the first Zelda was not an RPG at all in the true sense of what I think of when refering to an RPG. When I think RPG I think Final Fantasy.

[j.m.ratkos]

I think that everyone is in agreement that the zelda-type games are truly "action/adventure" with rpg elements. however, the term RPG does extend to cover many types of adventure type games in addition to the standard turn-based genre.

 

I hope that what kroogur and I have been hashing out will appeal to a good portion of the audience here.

[j.m.ratkos]

Time Phantoms

Much like every weekend for the past 3 months, Kyle Christensen ignored the beautiful warm weather and found himself once again huddled over a stack of musty scrolls, tomes and piles of notes.

 

Tucked away in Professor Elrick's office at the back of the University's library, he continued putting the finishing touches on his thesis which would link the Mayans and Aztecs back to the Egyptian Dynasty. Unaware that he, himself would play a major role in the facts and myths that he had been collecting and attempting to tie together for the past 18 months.

 

Midday brought a much needed break in the form of Jonathan Kouward carrying a rather battered and sun-bleached parcel. Kyle and Jon had met and become fast friends in Professor Elrick's classes, each trying to show-up the other in an almost sibling-like rivalry.

 

With the Professor on sabbatical for the past 4 weeks, Jon knew exactly where to find his roommate and that the package he now carried would pose enough of a mystery to tear Kyle away from his work, if only for a few minutes.

 

After examining and opening the package, the scholars found a pair of plain wooden boxes and a note which read:

 

 

My Dear Professor Elrick:

My time grows short and I can only hope that the contents of this package will find its way safely into to your hands at the University where it can be hidden away from prying eyes.

 

Enclosed in this parcel you will find a pair of rather unusual pocket watches. Guard them with your life for they hold a power greater than any man has ever laid eyes upon. DO NOT, under any circumstances, attempt to unlock and use them for personal gain, for to do so would bring down the wrath of the Gods!

 

Sincerely your trusted colleague

Professor Alek Von Heisizer

 

 

Amazing and perplexed, the men stared at one another, mentally attempting to comprehend the hastily scrawled warning that the note contained. Then after several moments, care gave way to curiosity as they took out the boxes and opened them. Resting on a plain piece of soft white linen, a pair rather nondescript tarnished pocket watches were found. In fact, other than opposite face colors (one in white, its twin in black), the watches appeared indistinguishable from one another. Kyle immediately noticed that rather than the typical '1' through '12' to mark the hours, each watch featured several tiny values scattered unevenly around the watch fact, ranging from '000' through '2000', with a slender golden hand resting 2 tiny, but distinct notches from the '2000' mark.

 

Pulling up the pin to wind the watch, he accidentally pulled the pin to its 2nd position and with a quick winding motion, rotated the golden arm backwards. Then, in a blinding flash of light, disappeared leaving Jonathon staring in shock and horror! No more than a single gasp had escaped Jonathan's mouth when a 2nd flash quickly engulfed the room and then receded leaving Kyle standing at its epicenter.

 

“What the heck just happened?!” exclaimed Jonathan to his bewildered looking roommate.

 

“One instant, you were standing there. Then this flash of light blinded me and you were gone but before I could even react, you re-appear just as quickly as you disappeared!!”

 

Kyle looked at him unsure.

 

“What do you mean I was only gone for a mere instant? You'll never going to believe this, but somehow... somehow after the light subsided, I found myself in the year 1900.”

 

“I've just spent few hours as the local townspeople celebrated the opening of this University's library!!”

[GroovyBee]

Sounds fab so far. Keep up the good work!

[kroogur]

Sort of an update at least for my part in this, I was pretty excited by the prospect of this but I have realized I am a bit in over my head with this project so I have decided to step away from this for the time being and will instead take some "baby steps" to get better acquainted with the 7800 before I proceed with anything so I will just take this moment to say I am not going to pursue this RPG any further.

 

I do wish JM the best with this and will add that I am not done with the 7800 in general and will be pursuing further education in the aspects of the 7800 system itself and hopefully some programming as well.

 

Thanks for listening and please keep the "You suck Kroogur! and We hate yer freakin guts" comments as civil as possible.

[jerseystyle]

Sort of an update at least for my part in this, I was pretty excited by the prospect of this but I have realized I am a bit in over my head with this project so I have decided to step away from this for the time being and will instead take some "baby steps" to get better acquainted with the 7800 before I proceed with anything so I will just take this moment to say I am not going to pursue this RPG any further.

 

I do wish JM the best with this and will add that I am not done with the 7800 in general and will be pursuing further education in the aspects of the 7800 system itself and hopefully some programming as well.

 

Thanks for listening and please keep the "You suck Kroogur! and We hate yer freakin guts" comments as civil as possible.

 

 

We need to get that hardwork guy to finish this up instead of Knight Rider Not to sound negative, but it seems like time and again people announce upcoming new games on here- then it's revealed that they do not actually have a game, as such, but a great idea, a cool picture, a story, etc. They get everyone all excited, and then down the road it turns out that they actually have little to no idea on how to even get started on the actual programming side of things. To be honest, it gets a little old. It would seem to me better to have a working skeleton of a game finished first, at least, before announcing it to the world.

[Mord]

 

We need to get that hardwork guy to finish this up instead of Knight Rider Not to sound negative, but it seems like time and again people announce upcoming new games on here- then it's revealed that they do not actually have a game, as such, but a great idea, a cool picture, a story, etc. They get everyone all excited, and then down the road it turns out that they actually have little to no idea on how to even get started on the actual programming side of things. To be honest, it gets a little old. It would seem to me better to have a working skeleton of a game finished first, at least, before announcing it to the world.

 

While I agree, you then have the other side of the spectrum where people keep insisting on said projects to be revealed to the world even if they aren't even up to that working skeleton stage of progress - and assume that if nothing is being announced then the entire scene is dead and nobody is working on anything.

[GroovyBee]

Not to sound negative, but it seems like time and again people announce upcoming new games on here- then it's revealed that they do not actually have a game, as such, but a great idea, a cool picture, a story, etc. They get everyone all excited, and then down the road it turns out that they actually have little to no idea on how to even get started on the actual programming side of things.

 

Considering I am the programmer on the project I find that statement quite insulting given the number of games I've done for the platform . This is a team project. If members of the team feel that they no longer want to continue the project it is their personal choice and not yours. Criticising people working on games for a long forgotten platform for failing to deliver is a pretty crappy thing to do when those people could be spending a great many hours of their own free time on it.

[jerseystyle]

Not to sound negative, but it seems like time and again people announce upcoming new games on here- then it's revealed that they do not actually have a game, as such, but a great idea, a cool picture, a story, etc. They get everyone all excited, and then down the road it turns out that they actually have little to no idea on how to even get started on the actual programming side of things.

 

Considering I am the programmer on the project I find that statement quite insulting given the number of games I've done for the platform . This is a team project. If members of the team feel that they no longer want to continue the project it is their personal choice and not yours. Criticising people working on games for a long forgotten platform for failing to deliver is a pretty crappy thing to do when those people could be spending a great many hours of their own free time on it.

 

Hey, I am sorry if I offended you, believe me, there was no insult intended. I did not know that you (or any other programmer) was involved. I read through the three page thread and saw people talking about story ideas, giving gameplay suggestions, a plot being thrown up, and then the originator of the thread coming back after a year and saying he realized he couldn't make any of it happen. Which, like I said, is something we have all seen many times before. So, again, sorry, I must have missed any postings you made, this guy gave the impression (to me anyway) that he was in charge and was talking about all of his good ideas. It just seemed to fit into that same Knight Rider or "Would it be possible too/who wants to do it/look at my photoshop pictures" threads.

[kroogur]

 

Hey, I am sorry if I offended you, believe me, there was no insult intended. I did not know that you (or any other programmer) was involved. I read through the three page thread and saw people talking about story ideas, giving gameplay suggestions, a plot being thrown up, and then the originator of the thread coming back after a year and saying he realized he couldn't make any of it happen. Which, like I said, is something we have all seen many times before. So, again, sorry, I must have missed any postings you made, this guy gave the impression (to me anyway) that he was in charge and was talking about all of his good ideas. It just seemed to fit into that same Knight Rider or "Would it be possible too/who wants to do it/look at my photoshop pictures" threads.

 

I apologize for any confusion but I was never the "main man" on this project jm ratkos was the winner when we had the "rpg for the 7800" poll my idea lost but I really wanted to see the project succeed so I offered to help with the storyline and such, I told Groovy right away that I had no programming skills so I was going to help work on the storyline for the time being and perhaps look into trying to learn some programming along the way but sadly it never worked out that way.I'll wait to see what jm ratkos has to say before we discuss the rpg product any further.

 

Unlike "Team Savage" and other folks who promise the world and fail to deliver I had the stones to admit that I got in over my head and rather than string all you fine folks along with empty promises and stall tactics I gave you all the current status good or bad. Groovy has been great through this whole thing and I am still looking forward to working with him and he is still interested in the rpg project but he needs a plot/storyline etc... before that can happen.

 

So as I mentioned in my other post I am actively taking steps to learn more about the 7800 system and what It can do and I ain't going anywhere, so please be patient with me folks.

[lisalover1]

So this will be the Atari 7800's FIRST RPG? I can tell you right now, if it has even an occasional cutscene I guarantee I will buy this. You know, the kind with a picture on the top half of the screen and white text over a black background on the bottom half (like in the MegaMan games for NES). That alone would make me want the game.

The gameplay style has been decided to be similar to Zelda, which is the same basic style as Midnight Mutants. So it would be either the 2nd, or the 0th, depending if you call Zelda an RPG.

 

 

So it's not gonna be turn based a la Final Fantasy? Thats a shame

I would have loved a nice turn-based JRPG for the 7800. There were too many 8/16-bit Zelda clones anyway, and something like Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior would be a very new concept on such an arcade port-centric console as this. I need a game I can really sink my teeth into for my 7800, and a JRPG sounds like just what the doctor ordered. Also, we don't mind if you take your time with other test projects first; the more homebrew and homebrew developers a system gets, the better, so just do the best you can, and take it slowly.

Edited July 26, 2010 by lisalover1

[GroovyBee]

With j.m.ratkos having not logged onto AA for over a year and no game design/concept document forthcoming I'm withdrawing my offer of being the programmer for this project (I have too many other 7800 games to be getting on with ).

[purduecrum]

With j.m.ratkos having not logged onto AA for over a year and no game design/concept document forthcoming I'm withdrawing my offer of being the programmer for this project (I have too many other 7800 games to be getting on with ).

Duly noted. Someone port one of the Ultimas already.

Edited August 4, 2011 by purduecrum