Atari 8bit is superior to the ST

[koster]

vcsdream and atariksi have been banned from this topic.

 

Everyone else, please be civil, okay?

 

..Al

I think it's not enough because vcsdream should be banned permanently. Why ? Because he is a little cheater. You see vcsdream = frenchman. Yeap, I'm 99% sure that he is our old "uber brainiac" who used to amuse us to death with his "deep knowledge" and "logical thinking". First he compromised himself many times, next got timely banned and after that cowardly registered again under a false nickname. And he surely thinks he is sooooo smart. The new nickname hasn't changed his mentality and he still trolls around here, therefore another ban. Well, only Albert can check both IP addresses to be 100% sure. I don't know if Albert allows such dirty tricks here, but most admins hate being bamboozled like this by such half-smart dickheads and they usually ban them for good.

vcsdream and frenchman have each posted images under the same Photobucket account:

 

frenchman in this thread he started -

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu25/voltageman321/P1010027.jpg

 

vcsdream in this thread (where he references 'his' Master Gear converter) -

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu25/voltageman321/SegaGameGear.jpg

 

But back to the topic - IMHO, both machines (Atari 8-bit and ST) have their own merits; neither is superior in everything to the other.

[oky2000]

The bottom line is which computer would you actually buy if you could only choose one? I myself have owned a ZX Spectrum 48K (rubber models and the + version), Amstrad CPC464 and I currently own three Atari STEs with major expansion done to them. I agree with some people who say the 8-bits had more magic and fun but I am also fascinated by the capabilities of the ST. I've experienced a lot of computers since the 1970s onwards including a Nascom (remember those?) and loved every minute of those old machines, but I think people should stick to remembering what was good about them instead of these pointless comparison threads. We are not in the school ground anymore!

 

 

Add a Spec plus 2 and a bbc, c64 and an msx (not sure what one) and we can play snap...know what you mean though, its not what the machines got that matters, it's what you do with what the machine's got that counts

 

We could have Atari playing cards yes! I might do this one day, with a set of classic A8/VCS game covers on the back. Excellent Idea, probably cost about £15 in ink mind....but think of the exclusivity!

[PeteD]

 

vcsdream and frenchman have each posted images under the same Photobucket account:

 

frenchman in this thread he started -

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu25/voltageman321/P1010027.jpg

 

vcsdream in this thread (where he references 'his' Master Gear converter) -

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu25/voltageman321/SegaGameGear.jpg

 

But back to the topic - IMHO, both machines (Atari 8-bit and ST) have their own merits; neither is superior in everything to the other.

 

On this weeks episode of CSI:AtariAge...

 

 

Pete

[oky2000]

Actaully as awful and trolling as you have been on this site, Al must be patient. I would have banned you 5min after you arrived.

Nice language as usual..that alone should be a reason to ban you.

Oh yeah ? but, at least I’m not a coward and always write under my own nickname. It's rather important, don’t you think ? For example, you are known as atarian63 and everybody here already knows your reputation. We know that you used to have a shop with computers, mostly Ataris, so considering the fact that C64 stomped on A8 very badly, you must have had pretty harsh time starving, while your competition flourished, selling Commodores. So, your cordial hatred towards C64 is well understood, and that’s why each phrase that contains information about “Commodore” on this board always summons you, and there we have: crap this, crap that, angry bees, golden era, bad programming, shoulda, coulda, woulda etc. We even know that you have a soft spot for farting videos, since you have posted them here. In other words, everybody here knows who you are, because you have always been atarian63. The same with me, I’ve always been Rockford here. But your best friend frenchman decided to start a new life on this board, as vcsdream. Why ??? Maybe because he was a laughing stock here, or maybe he wanted a new identity so he can troll here again with impunity, what he just did and got banned. Who knows ? Whatever the reason, what a pathetic loser one must be to act like this. You see, I don’t give a damn if he is banned or not, it’s up to Albert, but I’d like Albert and other people on this board know who they deal with. I also know you enough not to want to talk to you. It’s a tiresome experience and utter waste of time, really.

 

It is hilarious when Atarian63 points the troll sign at others!

 

I think we all have a couple of people we know not to bother reading responses from so Rockford is right about keeping one user name regardless of if either one was/wasn't banned. It's for the good of the threads, bit like when a baby is playing up and the mother ignores it hoping it will just go away out of boredom

[Crazyace]

Top trumps..

 

ST CPU 8mhz

Amiga CPU 7.09mhz

 

 

 

The thing is it's only some weird folk who would want to compare the A8 and ST to such a degree anyway. Fair enough asking the question, "which do you prefer?", but this thread got a bit bonkers.

 

*edit*

Juuuuust in case, this post is partially a joke

 

 

Pete

 

Oh no, I can actually envision a Top Trumps game containing all of the 8 bit and 16 bit machines now

[+wood_jl]

 

I think it’s hilarious how the ST fails so utterly against the Amiga that it’s reduced to fighting with the Amiga’s little brother (and only just holding it’s own.)

 

Some people here choose to argue about ST vs A8; perhaps it was a pointless comparison, perhaps not. How does the behavior of these individuals "reduce" the ST? That's fine that in in your opinion it failed. Everyone has on opinion. It is a fact, however, that it served as a "color Mac for 1/3 the price" for lots of users. Certainly wasn't perfect, nothing is. Thanks for the opinion, and adding to the discussion so objectively.

[carmel_andrews]

I remember hearing a story about sorting out a dodgy blitter chip in an ST/e...It involved lifting the machine some inches from the hard floor/surface and just letting go (making sure that the keyboard was sunny side up)

 

I wonder if that trick would work on an A8....anyone want to give it a go

[+wood_jl]

I remember hearing a story about sorting out a dodgy blitter chip in an ST/e...It involved lifting the machine some inches from the hard floor/surface and just letting go (making sure that the keyboard was sunny side up)

 

Isn't that common knowledge? It's even in the Wikipedia article on Atari ST:

 

Early 520ST owners became accustomed to the "Atari Twist" and the "Atari Drop" service procedures. "Atari Twist" seemed to help discharge built-up static electricity (Atari soldered-down the metal shielding to fix the problem) while the "Atari Drop" appeared to help re-seat chips which may have become partially unseated over time.

Edited January 7, 2010 by wood_jl

[dwhyte]

Okay... Here's my A8 vs. ST question for the thread:

 

Which computer could produce the most reliable backup (could copy something the other couldn't): An A8 with a 1050/810 enhanced with a Happy/Super Archiver/etc or an ST with a PC551 and a Happy Discovery Cartridge? Or is this question moot?

 

So two questions, really...

 

EDIT: I'm referring to backing-up a 5 1/4" copy protected A8 disk.

Edited January 7, 2010 by dwhyte

[+poobah]

Okay... Here's my A8 vs. ST question for the thread:

 

Which computer could produce the most reliable backup (could copy something the other couldn't): An A8 with a 1050/810 enhanced with a Happy/Super Archiver/etc or an ST with a PC551 and a Happy Discovery Cartridge? Or is this question moot?

 

So two questions, really...

 

EDIT: I'm referring to backing-up a 5 1/4" copy protected A8 disk.

 

Blitz cable and two matched speed drives on an ST was pretty darned good.

[Rockford]

vcsdream and atariksi have been banned from this topic.

 

Everyone else, please be civil, okay?

 

..Al

I think it's not enough because vcsdream should be banned permanently. Why ? Because he is a little cheater. You see vcsdream = frenchman. Yeap, I'm 99% sure that he is our old "uber brainiac" who used to amuse us to death with his "deep knowledge" and "logical thinking". First he compromised himself many times, next got timely banned and after that cowardly registered again under a false nickname. And he surely thinks he is sooooo smart. The new nickname hasn't changed his mentality and he still trolls around here, therefore another ban. Well, only Albert can check both IP addresses to be 100% sure. I don't know if Albert allows such dirty tricks here, but most admins hate being bamboozled like this by such half-smart dickheads and they usually ban them for good.

vcsdream and frenchman have each posted images under the same Photobucket account:

 

frenchman in this thread he started -

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu25/voltageman321/P1010027.jpg

 

vcsdream in this thread (where he references 'his' Master Gear converter) -

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu25/voltageman321/SegaGameGear.jpg

 

 

 

Yep, there is more of this, since he was stupid enough to leave traces all over this site. Pretty soon he will reincarnate under another false nickname, so we should be looking for an imbecile among new members.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Rockford

[analmux]

Yep, there is more of this, since he was stupid enough to leave traces all over this site. Pretty soon he will reincarnate under another false nickname, so we should be looking for an imbecile among new members.

I still wonder why guys posting things like this seem to be invisible for those protecting the 'board rules'.

Edited January 7, 2010 by analmux

[PeteD]

Yep, there is more of this, since he was stupid enough to leave traces all over this site. Pretty soon he will reincarnate under another false nickname, so we should be looking for an imbecile among new members.

I still wonder why guys posting things like this seem to be invisible for those protecting the 'board rules'.

 

Well it could be worded a bit more politely but I see nothing wrong with the sentiment. I had no encounter with frenchman that wasn't outright trolling then I had the same encounter with vcsdream a couple of days ago. So now when the next troll arrives with the same attitude shouldn't people be allowed to wonder if it's him again? It's cowardly behaviour to get banned for trolling and when the ban is up to register with a different name and carry on doing it.

 

 

Pete

[kool kitty89]

What we need for these threads is Top Trumps cards and the arguments should be decided with those.

 

 

Pete

 

I think it’s hilarious how the ST fails so utterly against the Amiga that it’s reduced to fighting with the Amiga’s little brother (and only just holding it’s own.)

 

No arguments there , ST vs Amiga was the 16 bit version of Spectrum vs C64

In terms of capabilities, yeah, but what about actual sales/success? And price of course, though both were far cheaper than a MAC. (you yourself pointed out that was a keay advantage for the ST in your case iirc)

 

But this isn't the ST vs Amiga thread. (which actually is a good bit more reasonable, surprisingly) But I will say that I'm not sure the Spectrum vs C64 is completely parallel, CPS vs C64 was compared earlier at some point, but that's even less accurate (CPC was newer and did have some advantages over C64, like color palette) plus the completely different CPU architectures in either case. (650x vs Z80)

 

Top trumps..

 

ST CPU 8mhz

Amiga CPU 7.09mhz

 

 

 

The thing is it's only some weird folk who would want to compare the A8 and ST to such a degree anyway. Fair enough asking the question, "which do you prefer?", but this thread got a bit bonkers.

 

Oh no, I can actually envision a Top Trumps game containing all of the 8 bit and 16 bit machines now

And of course, it's a slightly faster 7.16 MHz for NTSC units, but still that ~12% faster for the ST (closer to 13 for PAL), but games wis you'd only see an advantage for ST games ported to Amiga (which teneded to be less optimized in general), as well as 3D games, but then only a modest improvement. (could have been a big difference if Atari had chosen to simply rely on faster CPUs standard opposed to adding the BLiTTER, but that already came up here as well)

 

Regardless, both machines were great values relative to MAC (or PCs at the time -not sure what the baseline Tandy-1000 was priced at though -or PC Jr, but the Tandy line lasted a lot longer), and definitely better for games than the MAC or PCs. (Tandy probably being the closest in that area too)

 

 

I remember hearing a story about sorting out a dodgy blitter chip in an ST/e...It involved lifting the machine some inches from the hard floor/surface and just letting go (making sure that the keyboard was sunny side up)

 

Isn't that common knowledge? It's even in the Wikipedia article on Atari ST:

 

Early 520ST owners became accustomed to the "Atari Twist" and the "Atari Drop" service procedures. "Atari Twist" seemed to help discharge built-up static electricity (Atari soldered-down the metal shielding to fix the problem) while the "Atari Drop" appeared to help re-seat chips which may have become partially unseated over time.

I thought that was only a problem on early 520STs, with the proper solution being to open up the unit and reset the chips. (I seem to recall the GLU chips were the more problematic for needing reseating) Being resolved years before the STe was on the market.

Edited January 7, 2010 by kool kitty89

[Shredder11]

What we need for these threads is Top Trumps cards and the arguments should be decided with those.

 

 

Pete

 

 

Just to claify, my previous post was not intended to top trump or brag; it was merely a list of stuff I have used throughout my early years (I'm 38yrs old). Seeing as you posed the question, what in your opinion is the top card to own? It does not matter to me because I just enjoy most computers, particularly 1980s models and also quirky one off models. One thing I have never owned is a dedicated games console; I always prefered to play games on a home computer because you could play with a keyboard (I hate joysticks), and the games were more diverse and cheaper. All my friends have owned consoles and some still do, but I never really took to them. My heart will always be with the 1980s home micros!

 

That wasn't aimed at you in any way, I didn't post "a question", please don't get shirty

Pete

 

Yep and errr I wasn't!

[carmel_andrews]

I think we all lost our shirts when we bought our STs and A8s in small droves

 

Here's my trump

 

A8 Antic/Gtia

 

ST...A lonely Shifter

[potatohead]

No way! I saw a lot of value from my computers. Still do. This isn't about what "the masses" thought, or what they think now. It's about us, and our computers and what we get from them.

 

In terms of scope of possible tasks, I think the ST is the clear winner. It's got more and better resources to apply to possible solutions. In terms of gaming experiences, they are different, and I actually like the old 8 bit games quite a lot, for a lot of subtle reasons, not always seen on the ST. But... what if works like that were done on an ST?

 

Has anyone made the effort? Run the thing on the TV out, and do some straight up retro games, older school. I'll bet the result is kind of killer actually.

[FastRobPlus]

 

Has anyone made the effort? Run the thing on the TV out, and do some straight up retro games, older school. I'll bet the result is kind of killer actually.

 

Oids was pretty retro when it came out. It's a near-perfect game too.

[Lazarus]

Early 520ST owners became accustomed to the "Atari Twist" and the "Atari Drop" service procedures. "Atari Twist" seemed to help discharge built-up static electricity (Atari soldered-down the metal shielding to fix the problem) while the "Atari Drop" appeared to help re-seat chips which may have become partially unseated over time.

Atari Drop? Afair it is the Apple II drop to re-seat the chips. And last I heard it was even printed in the Apple II manual.

[Mirage]

As an aside, on that note... In about 1991, I called Commodore due to my constantly failing A500, and they also told me to to the several-centimeters-up drop move to re-seat the chips. I ended up sending it to them since the "fix" never did last for very long, and they did return it, repaired. So, Atari and Apple weren't the only ones telling their customers to do that.

[JamesD]

I don't remember the Apple II using that method but the Apple III definitely used the drop to seat the chips. It only had passive cooling and the heat would cause the board to warp and gradually eject the chips from their sockets over time.

 

The Amiga had issues with a few machines due to the use of cheap sockets.

[+DarkLord]

Atari Drop? Afair it is the Apple II drop to re-seat the chips. And last I heard it was even printed in the Apple II manual.

 

Atari's Customer support line would definitely tell you to take your early Atari ST

and drop it approximately 6", flat, onto a hard surface. If that fixed your problem,

then they would recommend that the chips inside the machine be reseated.

 

This was mentioned in magazines and users groups, blah, blah, blah...

 

Of course, once the machine started working again, most users would just leave it

at that...

[+DarkLord]

Blitz cable and two matched speed drives on an ST was pretty darned good.

 

I've got the Blitz cable right now, and I can say its amazing. A very high percentage

of all my protected floppy disk based games have been backed up this way, and its F A S T.

[atarian63]

What we need for these threads is Top Trumps cards and the arguments should be decided with those.

 

 

Pete

 

I think it’s hilarious how the ST fails so utterly against the Amiga that it’s reduced to fighting with the Amiga’s little brother (and only just holding it’s own.)

 

No arguments there , ST vs Amiga was the 16 bit version of Spectrum vs C64

In terms of capabilities, yeah, but what about actual sales/success? And price of course, though both were far cheaper than a MAC. (you yourself pointed out that was a keay advantage for the ST in your case iirc)

 

But this isn't the ST vs Amiga thread. (which actually is a good bit more reasonable, surprisingly) But I will say that I'm not sure the Spectrum vs C64 is completely parallel, CPS vs C64 was compared earlier at some point, but that's even less accurate (CPC was newer and did have some advantages over C64, like color palette) plus the completely different CPU architectures in either case. (650x vs Z80)

 

Top trumps..

 

ST CPU 8mhz

Amiga CPU 7.09mhz

 

 

 

The thing is it's only some weird folk who would want to compare the A8 and ST to such a degree anyway. Fair enough asking the question, "which do you prefer?", but this thread got a bit bonkers.

 

Oh no, I can actually envision a Top Trumps game containing all of the 8 bit and 16 bit machines now

And of course, it's a slightly faster 7.16 MHz for NTSC units, but still that ~12% faster for the ST (closer to 13 for PAL), but games wis you'd only see an advantage for ST games ported to Amiga (which teneded to be less optimized in general), as well as 3D games, but then only a modest improvement. (could have been a big difference if Atari had chosen to simply rely on faster CPUs standard opposed to adding the BLiTTER, but that already came up here as well)

 

Regardless, both machines were great values relative to MAC (or PCs at the time -not sure what the baseline Tandy-1000 was priced at though -or PC Jr, but the Tandy line lasted a lot longer), and definitely better for games than the MAC or PCs. (Tandy probably being the closest in that area too)

 

 

I remember hearing a story about sorting out a dodgy blitter chip in an ST/e...It involved lifting the machine some inches from the hard floor/surface and just letting go (making sure that the keyboard was sunny side up)

 

Isn't that common knowledge? It's even in the Wikipedia article on Atari ST:

 

Early 520ST owners became accustomed to the "Atari Twist" and the "Atari Drop" service procedures. "Atari Twist" seemed to help discharge built-up static electricity (Atari soldered-down the metal shielding to fix the problem) while the "Atari Drop" appeared to help re-seat chips which may have become partially unseated over time.

I thought that was only a problem on early 520STs, with the proper solution being to open up the unit and reset the chips. (I seem to recall the GLU chips were the more problematic for needing reseating) Being resolved years before the STe was on the market.

You are correct, it was the early 520ST models with no RF and external drives. The 1st 3 months were bad but easy to fix.

A small related story.. In those days Atari would sell ST's through distributors and dealers and Direct. Distributors were give a 10% discount to account for defects and nothing could be returned to Atari. So far so good. However for an unskilled distributor which are really just box movers the earlt ST's had a much higher rate without a fix. There was a distributors we used in PA that had nearly 700 of these customer returns that they could not send back. I became aware of this and made an appointment to visit them and brought a 24ft truck. They allowed me to inspect and even test all the defects and I could buy them for $50 each,however I had to take them all. Needless to say I knew what the problem with most was (loose chips) so I bought them all. Brought them back to the shop,we fixed nearly all of them, sold them as refurbished with our own warranty, selling them for 1/2 of what new one would be. Took about a month or so to sell them all.What a great deal that was!

[atarian63]

Actaully as awful and trolling as you have been on this site, Al must be patient. I would have banned you 5min after you arrived.

Nice language as usual..that alone should be a reason to ban you.

Oh yeah ? but, at least I’m not a coward and always write under my own nickname. It's rather important, don’t you think ? For example, you are known as atarian63 and everybody here already knows your reputation. We know that you used to have a shop with computers, mostly Ataris, so considering the fact that C64 stomped on A8 very badly, you must have had pretty harsh time starving, while your competition flourished, selling Commodores. So, your cordial hatred towards C64 is well understood, and that’s why each phrase that contains information about “Commodore” on this board always summons you, and there we have: crap this, crap that, angry bees, golden era, bad programming, shoulda, coulda, woulda etc. We even know that you have a soft spot for farting videos, since you have posted them here. In other words, everybody here knows who you are, because you have always been atarian63. The same with me, I’ve always been Rockford here. But your best friend frenchman decided to start a new life on this board, as vcsdream. Why ??? Maybe because he was a laughing stock here, or maybe he wanted a new identity so he can troll here again with impunity, what he just did and got banned. Who knows ? Whatever the reason, what a pathetic loser one must be to act like this. You see, I don’t give a damn if he is banned or not, it’s up to Albert, but I’d like Albert and other people on this board know who they deal with. I also know you enough not to want to talk to you. It’s a tiresome experience and utter waste of time, really.

 

It is hilarious when Atarian63 points the troll sign at others!

 

I think we all have a couple of people we know not to bother reading responses from so Rockford is right about keeping one user name regardless of if either one was/wasn't banned. It's for the good of the threads, bit like when a baby is playing up and the mother ignores it hoping it will just go away out of boredom

Maybe you should try growing up a bit, your comments and Rockfords have been ridiculed throughout many threads here. Very sad indeed.