My thoughts on Ebay....

[carmel_andrews]

Going by the increasingly popular thread by Albert (re: ebay sucks monkey balls) and various others having issues/problems with ebay (and it's sibling, paypal) it makes me wonder why i bothered to sign up to that particular service (not that i've bothered making any bids yet)

 

Anyway, whilst i realise that 'not everyone' on ebay is a con artist/scamster or fraud merchant, it does seem to be happening more often then not (like the saying goes, a few bad apples upsets the apple cart)

 

Now I don't mean this thread as a means of slagging off or putting down ebay (and paypal) but mainly to explore and suggest solutions to the 'ebay syndrome'

 

The main issue here is that ebay simply has NO DECENT COMPETITION in the online auction service marketplace and because of a lack of competition that ebay has, ebay is of the attitude or opinion that because it 'owns the market' (period, to using an americanism) it can treat/miss-treat customers (buyers as well as sellers) anyway they see fit and wish to...now we all know that, that is a bad way of running a business (since you lose customers that way) however, the problem ebay's customers have is simply that, there's no decent or even half decent competition out there for ebay, ebay's customers (b's and s's) have no option or choice but to use ebay for whatever they want to buy/sell in the online auction service marketplace

 

It amazes me though that because of the problems and issues that ebay has, and that probably a significant portion of ebay's customers (b's or s's) have been stung at least once or more then once (by stung, i mean conned, ripped off, scammed or defrauded) that no one has come forward to setup a worthy, serious competitor to ebay, it's not like there no money out there (after all if people are willing to bid 13000 usd on a nes setup, i am pretty sure that it doesn't cost 13000 usd to set up worthy and serious competitor to ebay)

 

The reason why i suggest a serious and worthy competitor to ebay is because it will not just create healthy competition in the marketplace, because ebay will naturally lose customers and market share, it will force ebay to seriously re think it's attitude to its customers and get back to the basics of good business and actually provide customer service which includes getting directly involved in problem trades/transactions and conflict resolution as well as have more flexible payment systems (i.e, not just paypal), more flexible business practices and policies and also try and reduce the fraud/scams and cons that go on, within it's service and by eradicating those issues/problems it can set about restoring it's credibility and reputation

 

But from what i am seeing is that there just doesn't seem to be the inclination or the will, to set up a decent/half decent competitor/competition for ebay, which leads me to think that perhaps people on ebay like being conned, ripped off or defrauded, because they are not trying to use alternative solutions out there or create/start an alternative solution to ebay, perhaps ebay's customers are a 'glutton for punishment' to using the old adage (which i am sure is not the case, but going from what i read and hear, that is the impression i am getting)

 

One possible alternative to ebay could be (in as far as the classic/retro and modern gaming and computing markets are concerned) would be that all the classic/retro gaming and computing sites club together to set up a rival to ebay's gaming and computer auction service, becuae the sites would club together to set up the service, costs are spread evenly and it works out less then setting up indivdual auction services, the idea being is that you have like a central auction portal (similar to a yahoo/google type thing) and you simply type in your area of interest in the classic/retro gaming or computing market, i.e say mint condition nes setup or mint condition atari 1050, or psu for sega dc etc, it then scans the various classic gaming and computing sites to see if anyone has posted up such things for sale/trade etc and you just click on the link that most matches your area of interest

 

Or you could have the concept of the central auction portal but split between hardware/software, brands and also pricing, therefore refining and naroowing your search more specifically

 

Obviously the service would be moderated at various levels both at the central level and local partner sites (where the sales/trades are actually happening) this is so what we can weed out people selling reproductions of copyrighted material (software/hardware) that they don't own the selling rights to, people selling pirated/copied/bootlegged software (both cd roms, disks, cassetes and cartirdges), also cloned/pirated or modded hardware (modded as in modified to run software designed for use on another markets hardware) as well as people selling 'romsets' on cd/dvd etc for use on emulators etc, as the service will rely on experts with the retro hardware or software collecting sphere (who are members/users of the varios 'partner' sites) that know what a legit version looks like (internally and externally) from a repro/copy or pirated version)

 

Additionally to eradicate issues or problems with payment systems, the seller/buyer would be offered a selection of modes/methods of payment (preferably NOT PAYPAL) once a trade or sale has been agreed the same system would also in in place for collection/delivery of sold/traded items where again the buyer/seller would be offered a sellection of approved/authorised despatch/delivery agents, as part of the process of despatch/delivery and payment, the buyer and seller must disclose contact details including email and a contactable telephone or mobile/cell no. number, so that either the central or partner auction site or either the delivery agent or seller buyer can make direct contact should there be a problem or issue at any stage (be it a payment issue or collection/delivery issue etc)

 

People using the service to buy or sell items will only be allowed 1 (one) user account, this also prevent spamming and also prevents certain types of fraud/scams/cons taking place, all registrations for the service have to include a verifiable address (postal as well as email, no p o box numbers will be acceptable) a contactable telephone number so that if needed the central or partner auction site can make contact with the new user to confirm their registration details, additionally they will also have to submit the names and contact details of at least 2 referees (1 business or professional referree and one personal referree so that they can be contacted to confirm or vouch for that users good character etc)

 

In regards to problem trades/transactions, there will be a policy of 'no strike and your out' (in other words, no second chances, after all if your a honest trader/seller or buyer or what your selling/trading is legit/above board etc then why do you need another chance), that will only come into play once all possible avenues of resolving problem trades/transactions have been exhausted, after all like the saying goes, you can't teach a old dog new tricks and like the leopard that never changes his spots, this will further eradicate most cons/scams or frauds, as the person at fault will have to pay a conflict settlement fee (anything upto 50 p/c of the sale/trade value in addition to the repatriation of goods and or funds) or risk being sued by the auction service or other party

 

 

 

Any idea's/any takers...anyone want to run with it

[FND]

 

 

It amazes me though that because of the problems and issues that ebay has, and that probably a significant portion of ebay's customers (b's or s's) have been stung at least once or more then once (by stung, i mean conned, ripped off, scammed or defrauded) that no one has come forward to setup a worthy, serious competitor to ebay, it's not like there no money out there (after all if people are willing to bid 13000 usd on a nes setup, i am pretty sure that it doesn't cost 13000 usd to set up worthy and serious competitor to ebay)

 

 

There is an alternate site its Gamegavel.com

http://www.gamegavel.com/

 

But the real problem is that everytime a new site is started its unsupported, the very first thing someone will

start with Why use it, there is no traffic, no one is buying, and then they go on to say how they hate Ebay/PayPal

but wont give the new site a chance. Its not the cost of starting a new site its breaking the misconcepteion that

only ebay can reach the buyers, there was even a recent post that one user says they wont use another site

even when there is a good deal ?

 

BTW GameGavel is free to list and has over 4000 users

[+save2600]

But the real problem is that everytime a new site is started its unsupported, the very first thing someone will

start with Why use it, there is no traffic, no one is buying, and then they go on to say how they hate Ebay/PayPal

but wont give the new site a chance.

That's it exactly. So the cycle of worthlessness continues TFN. If more people would cross their convictions with integrity, we wouldn't have half these social problems. Only thing you can really do is try NOT to use ePay or ScamPal and be vocal about it. Let others aware that you'd prefer that they send a check or money order. Try selling at places like AA, GG or wherever and use (or not) evilBay as a last resort. It's what I've been trying to do as I ween myself from the wretched institutions.

Edited February 17, 2010 by save2600

[akator]

(after all if people are willing to bid 13000 usd on a nes setup, i am pretty sure that it doesn't cost 13000 usd to set up worthy and serious competitor to ebay)

 

How did you reach that conclusion?

 

Any decent eBay competition would need a custom (read UNIQUE) and secure system.

 

Decent web programmers, capable of creating such a system, do not work for minimum wage.

 

Your supposition that a decent, custom, and secure auction system could be programmed for $13,000 is unfounded.

 

But from what i am seeing is that there just doesn't seem to be the inclination or the will, to set up a decent/half decent competitor/competition for ebay

 

I would be happy to create a website for you. As the investor, your job is to hand me $250,000 now so we can get started on the project. You will also have to pay for any additional expenses, including any from missing deadlines. When the initial coding is done, and the website it tested, we will still need another $1,000,000 to hire a handful for professional, reliable people to keep the site running for the first year. Add in server costs, marketing, etc., and you would need at least a few million up front to make it work.

 

Of course, I'm talking about REAL eBay competition. Not some crap you can do out of your basement. REAL eBay competition isn't as simple as buying some off-the-shelf software and setting up a website. If that's what you want, sure, you can set up a mickey-mouse auction site for $13.000. Good luck with that. You'll never be more than a pimple on eBay's ass, one that I doubt they will ever notice.

 

which leads me to think that perhaps people on ebay like being conned, ripped off or defrauded, because they are not trying to use alternative solutions

 

That is a ridiculous statement.

 

I have no problem with purchases on eBay when I buy from someone I met here at Atari Age first, or from one of the handful of vendors that have already established my trust.

 

That doesn't mean I like eBay, or that I didn't get screwed for years before I figured out how to improve my chances of getting what I thought I was paying for.

 

While you are trying to solve all of these things, please figure out how we can fix the US Postal Service and UPS. Judging by the frequent damage, they use my packages to jack up trucks, driving over my packages with forklifts, throwing my packages out of airplanes.

 

In separate conversations with people working at both services (off the record, of course), I was told they had too much shit to do and not enough time to handle packages properly. The unofficial company policies were to never throw things in front of the customer, otherwise anything goes.

 

If you figure out how to fix that, I would easily be happier with 25% of my eBay purchases.

 

There is an alternate site its Gamegavel.com

http://www.gamegavel.com/

 

I really want to like Game Gavel, but there have been too many changes over the last few years to inspire any kind of confidence from me. Names, affiliations, fees, change too often for me to ever become comfortable with the service. As horrible as eBay is, it is at least familiar and predictable evil.

[Albert]

Your supposition that a decent, custom, and secure auction system could be programmed for $13,000 is unfounded.

I agree. I think you'd need several million dollars, not to mention millions more in marketing, to launch a service that would have any chance in hell of taking on the juggernaut that is eBay. Even with that barrier, I am surprised that there really hasn't been a serious effort to try and compete directly with eBay. I'd consider Yahoo!'s auction site to be the only viable contender so far, and they eventually pulled the plug.

 

I keep hoping that Google will launch an auction site, but they may be making too much money from eBay to seriously consider it. I'm really surprised that with as much animosity as there is towards eBay, that we haven't seen a well-funded launch of a serious eBay competitor.

 

Ahh, well, hopefully someday.

 

..Al

[FND]

As horrible as eBay is, it is at least familiar and predictable evil.

 

Looks like Ebay has won again

[Christophero Sly]

Anyway, whilst i realise that 'not everyone' on ebay is a con artist/scamster or fraud merchant, it does seem to be happening more often then not (like the saying goes, a few bad apples upsets the apple cart)

I sympathize with those who have recently experienced some level of frustration on ebay. I have to say, however, that in my experience ebay has never been better. I don't believe that the recent changes ebay made were perfect, but those changes have gone a long way towards improving the ebay experience. Over the last year, I've dealt with many excellent buyers and sellers, and I have no real complaints.

 

Look, no one ever starts a thread on this forum to share their positive ebay experiences. I suppose it's human nature to accentuate the negative. Of course, that often makes sense, but the danger in all that negativity is that it tends to breed the lunatic fringe. Therefore, when assessing the pros and cons of ebay (or of anything really), it's critical to make the distinction between those individuals who are expressing a legitimate, grounded complaint with some aspect of the ebay experience, and the clamorous malcontents who will always be the victimized by their own unrealistic expectations and irrational behavior.

[jetset]

I sympathize with those who have recently experienced some level of frustration on ebay. I have to say, however, that in my experience ebay has never been better. I don't believe that the recent changes ebay made were perfect, but those changes have gone a long way towards improving the ebay experience. Over the last year, I've dealt with many excellent buyers and sellers, and I have no real complaints.

 

Agreed. Since the feedback policy changes, I've seen a huge improvement from sellers. No more bs with shipping charges (I know, it still exists, but before it was impossible to avoid), no more extortion over feedback, and a LOT less pure garbage to have to sort through to get what you want.

 

Look, no one ever starts a thread on this forum to share their positive ebay experiences. I suppose it's human nature to accentuate the negative. Of course, that often makes sense, but the danger in all that negativity is that it tends to breed the lunatic fringe. Therefore, when assessing the pros and cons of ebay (or of anything really), it's critical to make the distinction between those individuals who are expressing a legitimate, grounded complaint with some aspect of the ebay experience, and the clamorous malcontents who will always be the victimized by their own unrealistic expectations and irrational behavior.

 

Well, there are legit complaints, but rarely are they against Ebay. Usually, the complaints are on the seller of the item not Ebay itself.

[the-topdog]

How did you reach that conclusion?

 

Any decent eBay competition would need a custom (read UNIQUE) and secure system.

 

Decent web programmers, capable of creating such a system, do not work for minimum wage.

 

Your supposition that a decent, custom, and secure auction system could be programmed for $13,000 is unfounded.

 

I would have to disagree with you there akator. I have built many custom websites that generate millions of dollars for my clients and the development cost was way below the $13,000 even though I do make above minimum wage. The entire concept that you have to spend millions on a webstite to generate millions is ridiculous. Those millions of dollars would be better spent promoting the website than building it.

 

The success of any website depends primarily on traffic, whether it is obtained through advertising, search engines, social networking or old fashioned word of mouth... getting eyballs on your site is the key to success.

 

It is a total falsehood that ANY website starting out requires millions of dollars to run. Over time as a website grows and approaches the size of eBay then the costs would be there.

 

In my professional opinion $13k is quite doable.

 

But my opinion is that, instead of creating something new, why not just support eBay competitors like Game Gavel if you are disillusioned with eBay?

[akator]

In my professional opinion $13k is quite doable.

 

We aren't talking about a website, we're talking about creating a serious eBay competitor. I've been doing web sites since 1995, most of which have been corporate. Sure, $13K for a great corporate site with 20M visitors a year is achievable -- but that is nothing compared to what would be required for an eBay competitor. It would not only have to be as good as eBay, but obviously better.

 

Please, break that down for me. How much for the...

 

- database

- original and secure PHP code (or whatever scripting used)

- CSS for a DECENT site, done by designers and not schmoes

- AJAX crap

- purchasing system (even if credit card only)

- server implementation

- a year of changes and debugging once the site is public

 

Even if you can magically fit all of that into $13K, there are still operating expenses.

 

- credit card fees (sometimes $1 per purchase)

- server expenses

- customer service

- marketing

- management

- changes and debugging

- etc.

 

$13K? Really? Just the first part of my list can't be done for $13K... let alone $100K. It's far more than one person could accomplish, so contractors would need to be hired. In order to produce the site in 6 months, there would need to be at least one professional specialist for each of those areas. Where can you find people that can and would do all of that for $13K? I don't think that's possible, even if you outsource to China or India...

[atari_envy]

How did you reach that conclusion?

 

Any decent eBay competition would need a custom (read UNIQUE) and secure system.

 

Decent web programmers, capable of creating such a system, do not work for minimum wage.

 

Your supposition that a decent, custom, and secure auction system could be programmed for $13,000 is unfounded.

 

I would have to disagree with you there akator. I have built many custom websites that generate millions of dollars for my clients and the development cost was way below the $13,000 even though I do make above minimum wage. The entire concept that you have to spend millions on a webstite to generate millions is ridiculous. Those millions of dollars would be better spent promoting the website than building it.

 

The success of any website depends primarily on traffic, whether it is obtained through advertising, search engines, social networking or old fashioned word of mouth... getting eyballs on your site is the key to success.

 

It is a total falsehood that ANY website starting out requires millions of dollars to run. Over time as a website grows and approaches the size of eBay then the costs would be there.

 

In my professional opinion $13k is quite doable.

 

But my opinion is that, instead of creating something new, why not just support eBay competitors like Game Gavel if you are disillusioned with eBay?

I agree that it could be "programmed" for less than $13K. I am developer (among other responsibilites), too, and have created some huge $$$ sites for my company. But that is still a pretty low-ball figure; consequently, it wouldn't be a terribly robust auction site, unless the developer had a stake in the profits and was doing a lot of work for free or for a percentage.

 

I agree. The real cost would be in hosting, marketing and supporting it, especially as traffic ramped up.

 

As for eBay. I have mixed feelings. I view it like a necessary evil -- like lawyers. Without eBay, my Atari collection would be much smaller. Yes, I have taken a bath on about 25% of my transactions, but this has to do with the seller, not eBay itself.

 

If I have one fault for eBay, it is PayPal. Their business practices are shady at best. At worst, it is downright theft.

[Shawn]

 

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

 

Wow thats quiet the speech considering it's coming from someone thats not once bought or sold anything on ebay.

[SoulBlazer]

 

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

 

Wow thats quiet the speech considering it's coming from someone thats not once bought or sold anything on ebay.

 

One does not need to do something to know a lot about it, study it, and be interested in it. Sex is a great example.

[the-topdog]

Please, break that down for me. How much for the...

 

- database

- original and secure PHP code (or whatever scripting used)

- CSS for a DECENT site, done by designers and not schmoes

- AJAX crap

- purchasing system (even if credit card only)

- server implementation

- a year of changes and debugging once the site is public

 

Even if you can magically fit all of that into $13K, there are still operating expenses.

 

- credit card fees (sometimes $1 per purchase)

- server expenses

- customer service

- marketing

- management

- changes and debugging

- etc.

 

The website would be hosted on the open-source LAMP platform (Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP), total cash outlay $0.

 

Platform setup would be $0 as you would use a virtual host for the first year of the websites life-cycle. That would be adequate until server load requires dedicated servers and eventually a data center in a few years.

 

Database table architecture, design and implementation would require 15 hours of programming time.

 

PHP/CSS/AJAX and coding including administration controls, user controls, account management, billing, feedback mechanism and graphic design for a DECENT site... 125 hours of programming time.

 

Purchasing system is covered above via integration of Credit Card vendor supplied API for your merchant account.

 

Server implementation is a non issue as the platform is already there in this scenario and your code should already be online through your own testing and QC process.

 

A year of changes and debugging for a live production site varies but as long as you are a programmer worth your salt, assume no more that 30 hours of programming and troubleshooting.

 

170 hours total hours billed at $50-75/hr = $8500-$12,750

 

These numbers are not a "shot in the dark", I base them on experience. On multiple websites I have constructed from scratch for various clients, all have taken LESS time than I have listed (I padded the numbers for adding auction capabilities). Each of these sites generates millions of dollars in sales on the custom eCommerce platforms I have built for them.

 

Operating expenses are a reality for any business. Your first year as an online only, virtual business is negligible, you will not accrue many expenses until you start becoming successful.

 

To be a "true" competitor for eBay, it will take time and years of adding to and modifying code as needed as your traffic grows. It is IMPOSSIBLE to come right out of the gate as a 1-1 because time and traffic are all that can make you a competitor, NOT TECHNOLOGY. The best use of your money is in advertising... to draw eyes to your site.

[Shawn]

 

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

 

Wow thats quiet the speech considering it's coming from someone thats not once bought or sold anything on ebay.

 

One does not need to do something to know a lot about it, study it, and be interested in it. Sex is a great example.

 

 

touche!

[akator]

170 hours total hours billed at $50-75/hr = $8500-$12,750

 

Wow. someone should definitely do that, since starting now, even as a hobby at 10 hours a week it could be done by late summer.

[carmel_andrews]

Akator, not that i want to argue the point

 

I am sure that ebay didn't have the infrastructure (by infrastructure i refer to their site) or the size of site they have now, back when they started...I don't think they did, they only attained that through investors bringing money into the company and also sales through their site

 

I refer you to the old adage, from small acorns may great oak tree's grow, the point being that you start small, with little investment you grow as investment comes into your site and then you can start attaining the capabilities of an ebay type service whilst keeping to your sites original premise and unique selling proposition

 

As for the blah blah blah comment....I take it that it's ileegal for me to comment on ebay subjects simply because i don't use the service as much or as often as some people do

[Shawn]

 

As for the blah blah blah comment....I take it that it's ileegal for me to comment on ebay subjects simply because i don't use the service as much or as often as some people do

 

You have not bought or sold on ebay at all, nor do you collect video games so yes your words are muted by this on both subjects.

[Parrothead]

(after all if people are willing to bid 13000 usd on a nes setup, i am pretty sure that it doesn't cost 13000 usd to set up worthy and serious competitor to ebay)

 

How did you reach that conclusion?

 

Any decent eBay competition would need a custom (read UNIQUE) and secure system.

 

Decent web programmers, capable of creating such a system, do not work for minimum wage.

 

Your supposition that a decent, custom, and secure auction system could be programmed for $13,000 is unfounded.

 

But from what i am seeing is that there just doesn't seem to be the inclination or the will, to set up a decent/half decent competitor/competition for ebay

 

I would be happy to create a website for you. As the investor, your job is to hand me $250,000 now so we can get started on the project. You will also have to pay for any additional expenses, including any from missing deadlines. When the initial coding is done, and the website it tested, we will still need another $1,000,000 to hire a handful for professional, reliable people to keep the site running for the first year. Add in server costs, marketing, etc., and you would need at least a few million up front to make it work.

 

Of course, I'm talking about REAL eBay competition. Not some crap you can do out of your basement. REAL eBay competition isn't as simple as buying some off-the-shelf software and setting up a website. If that's what you want, sure, you can set up a mickey-mouse auction site for $13.000. Good luck with that. You'll never be more than a pimple on eBay's ass, one that I doubt they will ever notice.

 

which leads me to think that perhaps people on ebay like being conned, ripped off or defrauded, because they are not trying to use alternative solutions

 

That is a ridiculous statement.

 

I have no problem with purchases on eBay when I buy from someone I met here at Atari Age first, or from one of the handful of vendors that have already established my trust.

 

That doesn't mean I like eBay, or that I didn't get screwed for years before I figured out how to improve my chances of getting what I thought I was paying for.

 

While you are trying to solve all of these things, please figure out how we can fix the US Postal Service and UPS. Judging by the frequent damage, they use my packages to jack up trucks, driving over my packages with forklifts, throwing my packages out of airplanes.

 

In separate conversations with people working at both services (off the record, of course), I was told they had too much shit to do and not enough time to handle packages properly. The unofficial company policies were to never throw things in front of the customer, otherwise anything goes.

 

If you figure out how to fix that, I would easily be happier with 25% of my eBay purchases.

 

There is an alternate site its Gamegavel.com

http://www.gamegavel.com/

 

I really want to like Game Gavel, but there have been too many changes over the last few years to inspire any kind of confidence from me. Names, affiliations, fees, change too often for me to ever become comfortable with the service. As horrible as eBay is, it is at least familiar and predictable evil.

 

Changes? First off we've not even been around two years. Name changed - Yes, for the better. Second, fees have remained the same except for a miner brush with listing fees that didn't even last 30-days (temporary lapse of judgement on my part). Affiliations should have nothing to do with anything. The more and diverse our relationships the more traffic comes to the site. The only changes that I make are for the benefit of its members who are depending on me to keep this thing moving forward. I spend hours daily/nightly doing things to bring more people to the site and to our sellers listings. Mentioning affiliations here just doesn't make any sense.

 

The only ture changes include site facelifts, functionality improvements (have you listed anything recently), etc. And these are all things people want and have asked for. In our forums we have an area for comments, suggestions and improvements. Tons of that stuff gets implemented. Things are changing for the better

Edited February 18, 2010 by Parrothead

[the-topdog]

Changes?

 

Psst... don't make any sudden moves and don't panic, but there seems to be a gavel growing out of your head...

 

GameGavel rocks IMHO.