What COULD the 5200 have done?

[CV Gus]

On Youtube, I recently saw Joust, and a few other games I don't have (but will try to get).

 

 

Now, I'm thinking about games on the 7800 like:

 

Joust.

 

Xevious.

 

Desert Falcon.

 

Galaga.

 

 

 

Especially the first two: just how good a version COULD the 5200 have done? Primarily graphics, although with Joust the gameplay was a bit off, too.

 

 

Any 5200 programming pros with any demonstration screens/screenshots here? How about with Kangaroo and Vanguard? I've seen the Atari computer version of Donkey Kong, so I assume the 5200 would have been almost identical? In that case, superior to the 7800 version.

 

 

 

I ask because again, I just cannot- after over two decades- shake the feeling that the 7800 just wasn't that big a leap from the 5200, especially when I see games like Pengo.

[GroovyBee]

I ask because again, I just cannot- after over two decades- shake the feeling that the 7800 just wasn't that big a leap from the 5200, especially when I see games like Pengo.

 

Have you played the latest 7800 homebrews?

[CV Gus]

Sadly, no.

 

Nor have I played any 5200 homebrews.

 

Since the 5200 was only around for about 1 1/2 years, it hardly had a chance for the "learning curve" to improve. Even taking into account its close relationship with the Atari 400 computer. Consider what the 2600 was doing in 1983 as opposed to 1978.

 

So what COULD the 5200 have done, both with its own games (e.g. Joust and Pac-Man), and games seen on the 7800, such as Alien Brigade and Sirius?

[+save2600]

5200 could have done just about anything the Atari 8-bits could of course. And naturally any 7800 games, albeit with slightly worse graphics in some cases. Any console can "do" any game (the 2600 is testament to that). Even semi-modern ones. Whether they'd do it well or not is another story

[Curt Vendel]

Nicely put.

 

 

 

 

 

5200 could have done just about anything the Atari 8-bits could of course. And naturally any 7800 games, albeit with slightly worse graphics in some cases. Any console can "do" any game (the 2600 is testament to that). Even semi-modern ones. Whether they'd do it well or not is another story

[jetset]

On Youtube, I recently saw Joust, and a few other games I don't have (but will try to get).

 

 

Now, I'm thinking about games on the 7800 like:

 

Joust.

 

 

There already exists a pretty damn good version of Joust for the 5200.

 

 

 

Um....there already is a pretty damn good version of Joust for the 5200

I've seen the Atari computer version of Donkey Kong, so I assume the 5200 would have been almost identical? In that case, superior to the 7800 version.

 

...and the CV and Intellivision versions of Donkey Kong as well. That alone should tell you what the 5200 "could" have done.

[CV Gus]

Not quite a valid point, though.

 

The CV does have a four-screen version of Donkey Kong Jr., for example- while "rough around the edges" (where is the sound when you jump over something, the way DK looks as you are freeing him), it does show that the CV could have released a complete version.

 

 

But what I'm getting at here is this: unlike Coleco, which was not going to dump the CV, Atari had planned to dump the 5200 all along in favor of the 7800. The Crash did not matter- the 5200 was doomed. Period.

 

But my reason for these kind of posts is this...

 

The Atari 2600 (VCS) came out in the 1970s.

 

By the time 1982 rolled around, arcade games- the main reason people bought home systems, for home versions- were beyond the 2600's practical limits. Zaxxon? Robotron? You get the idea. So, in late 1982, we got the 5200 (well, maybe you did, we got a CV, but it was the same idea, really).

 

Now, according to the video game magazines of the time, the 7800 was to have been released around the same time the 5200 was, only in 1984. So by the longest stretch, you're talking about maybe two years. 1982-1984.

 

You see where I'm going with this, don't you?

 

Was there really any point to the 7800?

 

If you look at games like Pengo for the 5200, which is truly spectacular, or games like Ballblazer, was the 7800 really THAT far ahead? If in the hands of a truly talented 5200 programmer, could it have done versions of Joust, Dig Dug, Food Fight, Desert Falcon, Galaga, and even later games, that would have been much less than 7800 versions? It's not like comparing a 2600 to a 5200, is it?

 

Look at the CV versions of games like Joust, Galaxian, the unfinished Dig Dug (which would have had much less flickering, as shown by Opcode's PMC) and Opcode's Pac-Man Collection, or Newcoleco's Ghostblaster. These tend to stand up to 7800 games, even if there is a bit of flicker.

 

So why not the 5200? Did it ever even get a real chance to show what it could have done?

 

Are there any examples of what the 5200 could have done? If so, then where? I'd like to see them. Just as there are improved versions of Pac-Man for the 2600.

Edited March 17, 2010 by CV Gus

[Ransom]

In the sense you're talking about, the 5200 was the same as the Atari 400/800/XL/XE. It had a GTIA, an ANTIC, POKEY, 6502 operating at the same speed, etc.

 

So we know what it could have done, based on what was done with the 400/800 line.

[GroovyBee]

Look at the CV versions of games like Joust, Galaxian, the unfinished Dig Dug (which would have had much less flickering, as shown by Opcode's PMC) and Opcode's Pac-Man Collection, or Newcoleco's Ghostblaster. These tend to stand up to 7800 games, even if there is a bit of flicker.

 

At least compare like with like. You should be comparing homebrew games to homebrew games. In recent years the 7800 has come a long way. So comparing modern homebrew games (and all the advances in programming techniques and technical discoveries made) to ones released 24 years ago isn't good in my opinion.

[Lynxpro]

Was there really any point to the 7800?

 

 

Do people believe the 5200 could outdo the 7800 graphically had the 7800 been packed with 16k or more of memory? I was under the impression that everyone thought the Maria chip rocked.

[GroovyBee]

I was under the impression that everyone thought the Maria chip rocked.

It most certainly does!

[atariksi]

I don't know about the myth about 5200 being dumped for 7800. It's also a myth that 2600 was to be dumped for 5200. They have to co-exist since they weren't backward compatible. You can't play 5200 stuff on 7800. You can't play 2600 stuff on 5200. 7800 has better colors in higher resolution but audio quality if poorer and of course RAM is lesser plus it was a late arrival in 8-bit consoles compared to other 8-bit consoles.

[kool kitty89]

Any game possible on the A400 or 600Xl should be quite possible on the 5200. However, anything depending on the availability of more RAM would be problematic. (I think the vast majority of cartridge based 8-bit games work in 16 kB though -tape/disk based counterparts naturally need more ram for the program to load into)

[Divya16]

Any game possible on the A400 or 600Xl should be quite possible on the 5200. However, anything depending on the availability of more RAM would be problematic. (I think the vast majority of cartridge based 8-bit games work in 16 kB though -tape/disk based counterparts naturally need more ram for the program to load into)

 

So games could be even better on Atari 800 if they used the 48K RAM. More levels on Hero would be nice.

[CV Gus]

I don't know about the myth about 5200 being dumped for 7800. It's also a myth that 2600 was to be dumped for 5200. They have to co-exist since they weren't backward compatible. You can't play 5200 stuff on 7800. You can't play 2600 stuff on 5200. 7800 has better colors in higher resolution but audio quality if poorer and of course RAM is lesser plus it was a late arrival in 8-bit consoles compared to other 8-bit consoles.

 

 

T`was no myth, my friend. Reported back in those days- I kept up with it, remember- that Atari, for whatever reason, was disappointed with the way the 5200 sold, and decided to go with the 7800 project.

 

They weren't going to dump the 2600. It was doing too well, and the idea of supporting THREE systems at once was too ludicrous even for Atari. So it was either the 5200 or the 7800; they dumped the 5200.

 

Now, there was a rumor floating around that the 5200 was released ONLY to intercept the CV- that the as-then unprepared 7800 was supposed to have been Atari's next system! Since it was backward compatible with the 2600, this gives that rumor some credibility. Why wouldn't a 1982 system be, yet a 1984 system would?

 

But, before anyone replies to that last one, yes, it was JUST a rumor, and no, it's never been proven.

 

 

Still, I use the mentioned games only as reference- that's all I can do.

 

 

Over at the DP, right now there is a topic about the 7800. Part of it is much like the "NES vs. 7800" thread here some time ago. It seems as though in the case of games requiring extensive backgrounds, the 7800 loses much of its advantage, even against earlier consoles like the CV and 5200.

 

So overall- and keep "overall" in mind- was the 5200 even that far behind the 7800? Certainly it pounded the 7800 with sound capabilities. And quite frankly the colors with the 5200 were more, well, "alive" than the 7800's.

Edited March 18, 2010 by CV Gus

[GroovyBee]

Over at the DP, right now there is a topic about the 7800. Part of it is much like the "NES vs. 7800" thread here some time ago. It seems as though in the case of games requiring extensive backgrounds, the 7800 loses much of its advantage, even against earlier consoles like the CV and 5200.

 

Is this the thread?

 

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142404

 

That was written by a guy on DP who doesn't know anything about the 7800 and was making assumptions based on my replies. LMAO! Please see my latest reply .

[CV Gus]

Maybe- except that he's not the first one to suggest this. Remember the "Sirius" example used here a while back?

 

Just how much effort does extensive backgrounds take from a 7800- even if it does redraw things automatically? And what if you want to change something in the background?

Edited March 18, 2010 by CV Gus

[GroovyBee]

Maybe- except that he's not the first one to suggest this. Remember the "Sirius" example used here a while back?

 

You mean this?

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/105918-i-think-i-might-as-well-give-up/page__view__findpost__p__1886977

 

It was me that broke down the game as to how I would do it. I did not reverse engineer the code to check. I also did not compare it to the 5200 or the CV either.

[GroovyBee]

Just how much effort does extensive backgrounds take from a 7800- even if it does redraw things automatically? And what if you want to change something in the background?

 

That's too vague a question to give you an definitive answer. It would be better of you described the problem in terms of colour depth, sprite sizes, game scenario etc.

[DracIsBack]

Edited March 19, 2010 by DracIsBack

[DracIsBack]

If you look at games like Pengo for the 5200, which is truly spectacular, or games like Ballblazer, was the 7800 really THAT far ahead? If in the hands of a truly talented 5200 programmer, could it have done versions of Joust, Dig Dug, Food Fight, Desert Falcon, Galaga, and even later games, that would have been much less than 7800 versions? It's not like comparing a 2600 to a 5200, is it?

 

Why are you comparing relatively simple games? I'm not sure any of those pushed either the 5200 or 7800? How about trying out the 5200 on Alien Brigade, Sirius, Plutos, Midnight Mutants, Scrapyard Dog, Commando, Basketbrawl etc for a comparison?

 

I remain puzzled why you keep coming back and starting these same threads over, and over, and over. It's like you deliberately want to stir the pot.

 

Keep in mind that GroovyBee is becoming for the 7800 what Opcode is for the Colecovision ...

Edited March 19, 2010 by DracIsBack

[jetset]

If you look at games like Pengo for the 5200, which is truly spectacular, or games like Ballblazer, was the 7800 really THAT far ahead? If in the hands of a truly talented 5200 programmer, could it have done versions of Joust, Dig Dug, Food Fight, Desert Falcon, Galaga, and even later games, that would have been much less than 7800 versions? It's not like comparing a 2600 to a 5200, is it?

 

 

 

I remain puzzled why you keep coming back and starting these same threads over, and over, and over. It's like you deliberately want to stir the pot.

 

 

 

He's a CV guy who's slowly coming to terms with the fact that both the 5200 and 7800 were better systems is all.

[CV Gus]

Hardly.

 

One reason is the fact that it was stupid decisions- from the deregulation frenzy of the Reagan Years to Coleco ruining themselves with the ADAM computer, right through Atari's own boneheaded decisions- that has put us all in the mess that we are in in 2010. The financial meltdown, Bernie Madoff, the ruined industries- did not happen within the past two or three years; it has been decades in the making.

 

 

But why? Since this is an Atari forum, what better example to analyze than what happened to Atari? It is a perfect example of what happened overall.

 

Think about what happened:

 

1) Atari showed no concern for 5200 owners- their customers- by just dumping the 5200. Really, did any 5200 owner ask them to do that, or did Atari in effect tell its customers what they wanted? AND- what they were going to get, whether they wanted it or not. In the Dilbert comics, deciding what customers want by asking marketing "experts" is called a "one-off" activity, which can doom a company. Scott Adams could have been writing about 1984 Atari.

 

2) They were going to release the 7800 with games mostly that had already appeared on the 2600, the 5200, and their computers. The 7800 being inferior in at least one important aspect: sound.

 

I will not get into the Tramiel Era, since that is just too pathetic.

 

 

How do we know how the Atari 5200 could have handled games like Alien Brigade and the like? Did they ever try? Has anyone?

 

The point is this: if in fact the 7800 is not as superior to the 5200 as many thought (myself included- GroovyBee, what kind of version of Sirius do you think the 5200 could have done? A good one? Do you have any "samples" of what the 5200 could do?), then that decision made back then was even more ridiculous than I believed.

 

But without a professional comparison, comparing their overall strengths and weaknesses, how can I know? That is why I'm asking.

 

As for the CV- it seems as thought the 5200 and CV are more or less on equal footing, with games like Ghostblaster illustrating what the CV could do- therefore, couldn't the 5200 do something very much like that? But since I know of no such 5200 games, I have to bring up CV versions.

Edited March 19, 2010 by CV Gus

[GroovyBee]

The point is this: if in fact the 7800 is not as superior to the 5200 as many thought (myself included- GroovyBee, what kind of version of Sirius do you think the 5200 could have done? A good one? Do you have any "samples" of what the 5200 could do?), then that decision made back then was even more ridiculous than I believed.

 

Comparing modern CV homebrews with games from 25+ years on the 7800 isn't a very good comparison in my opinion. How about you tell me if the following games (developed by me - I'll take the flak) could be done exactly as shown in the images on the 5200 :-

 

[DracIsBack]

How do we know how the Atari 5200 could have handled games like Alien Brigade and the like? Did they ever try? Has anyone?

 

The closest would be the games that appeared on the XEGS as the graphics hardware is almost identical. Tell you what, if someone can pull off the games that I listed on the 5200, I'm willing to agree with you.

 

But without a professional comparison, comparing their overall strengths and weaknesses, how can I know? That is why I'm asking.

 

And that's all you ever seem to ask on these forums. But I don't believe it's a quest for knowledge as much as a desire to stir the pot.