What COULD the 5200 have done?

[jetset]

Wow. You guys really took the 5200 v 7800 bait. Tsk, Tsk.

[roland p]

Wow. You guys really took the 5200 v 7800 bait. Tsk, Tsk.

Ofcourse, the 5200/atari 8-bit is the superior number one machine, nothing can beat it, ever.

[GroovyBee]

Ofcourse, the 5200/atari 8-bit is the superior number one machine, nothing can beat it, ever.

Well... Except for the 7800 obviously .

[Ransom]

Ofcourse, the 5200/atari 8-bit is the superior number one machine, nothing can beat it, ever.

Well... Except for the 7800 obviously .

 

That's true...if you duct taped a 5200 to it.

[atariksi]

Here's some things that are also true now that graphics issue is resolved:

 

I'll quite happily accept that the 5200 is superior in graphics if it can do the following tasks with no DLI kernel :-

 

1) It can display more than 29 different 8 pixel wide sprites in 3 colours every video scan line without using soft sprites and each sprite overlaps the previous one to the left by 4 to 8 pixels with transparency enabled. There must be 24 (or more) colours seen per horizontal scan line.

 

2) Displays two 12 colour (or even more colours) sprites which are both 64 pixels wide anywhere (under player control) on top of a 4 colour background with transparency enabled. The sprites may also be on the same video scan line so the transparency order must be correct. Each sprite contains unique colours compared to its brother but may share common colours with the background.

 

Graphics power isn't just sprites. It consists of colors (palette), hardware collision detection, overscan/underscan, LMS/scrolling registers, ability to draw lines/points/shapes in frame buffers (linear is better & faster), sprites, DLIs, graphics memory available (for interlacing, scrolling large areas, copying buffers, etc.) Can A7800 do a game like Qix which draws in a large frame buffer (>4K). No, you would have to resort to some tricks of repeating stuff and make it a lower quality than A5200. Can A5200 do sprites like A7800. No, but there's no use of having 29 per line if it hogs up all your RAM and CPU time for practical game scenarious. River-raid is a fine example of A5200 sprite usage and multiplexing and hardware collision detection with scrolling.

[Crazyace]

The 7800 could easily do a Qix game , and run it at 320x200 in 4 colours, simply by using a cartridge with 16k ram.

[GroovyBee]

Next you'll be telling me that the 7800 can't do Tempest.

 

@atariski:

So you accept that when you take away kernel DLIs and get down to what the raw silicon can do that the 7800 is graphically more powerful?

[atariksi]

The 7800 could easily do a Qix game , and run it at 320x200 in 4 colours, simply by using a cartridge with 16k ram.

 

And you can run Myst on A5200 in 160*200*30 by adding a SD card interface via the peripheral port and/or banked cartridge. If you add hardware via cartridge or other port, yeah sure. Which 7800 cartridges out there actually have 16K+ RAM on them-- it would be interesting to try those out.

[GroovyBee]

Which 7800 cartridges out there actually have 16K+ RAM on them-- it would be interesting to try those out.

 

Summer Games and Winter Games have 16K RAM, some others like Tower Toppler have 8K. I've no idea what its used for in the game.

[atariksi]

Next you'll be telling me that the 7800 can't do Tempest.

...

You may get away with Tempest if you store fixed shapes/line sizes in ROM and use sprites for other things.

 

@atariski:

So you accept that when you take away kernel DLIs and get down to what the raw silicon can do that the 7800 is graphically more powerful?

 

I already said, sprites don't tell the whole story. For some games they do. If you allow hardware expansion on 7800 and NOT on 5200, yeah then 7800 is graphically more powerful. As I said earlier, 7800's Maria is crippled by

the 4K RAM which can't even hold a 160*100*4 since some of the RAM is used for other things.

[DracIsBack]

And you can run Myst on A5200 in 160*200*30 by adding a SD card interface via the peripheral port and/or banked cartridge.

 

How about sticking with what actually occured during the system's life? I'm pretty sure GCC never intended or expected the 7800 or 5200 to have an SD card interface.

 

However, carts with additional RAM, sound chips and bankswitching were pretty much intended from the get go ... and occured on other systems of that era.

 

I think you and GroovyBee just need to agree to disagree. All you're really doing is pointing out that the systems are different and each has strengths and weaknesses. Which pretty much happens with all competing architectures.

Edited March 23, 2010 by DracIsBack

[GroovyBee]

You may get away with Tempest if you store fixed shapes/line sizes in ROM and use sprites for other things.

 

No need to get away with anything. Tempest exists on the 7800 using RAM on cart :-

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/159728-7800-tempest/

 

I already said, sprites don't tell the whole story. For some games they do. If you allow hardware expansion on 7800 and NOT on 5200, yeah then 7800 is graphically more powerful. As I said earlier, 7800's Maria is crippled by

the 4K RAM which can't even hold a 160*100*4 since some of the RAM is used for other things.

 

I didn't say that you couldn't add RAM to the system. Since 7800 carts with RAM on board appeared during the active lifetime of the console I don't have a problem using it if its required for the game. If external memory card storage appeared for the 5200 during its active lifetime you can use that too .

[atariksi]

You may get away with Tempest if you store fixed shapes/line sizes in ROM and use sprites for other things.

 

No need to get away with anything. Tempest exists on the 7800 using RAM on cart :-

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/159728-7800-tempest/

 

I already said, sprites don't tell the whole story. For some games they do. If you allow hardware expansion on 7800 and NOT on 5200, yeah then 7800 is graphically more powerful. As I said earlier, 7800's Maria is crippled by

the 4K RAM which can't even hold a 160*100*4 since some of the RAM is used for other things.

 

I didn't say that you couldn't add RAM to the system. Since 7800 carts with RAM on board appeared during the active lifetime of the console I don't have a problem using it if its required for the game. If external memory card storage appeared for the 5200 during its active lifetime you can use that too .

 

I'm sure adding RAMs/POKEYs back then made the cartridges more expensive for A7800. But they did have banked carts on A5200 as well-- I think Bounty Bob Strikes Back is banked although I don't have never tried nor have that cartridge. But adding something to a peripheral port which was meant for adding storage device isn't a big deal.

 

Regarding Tempest on 7800, where does your 16K SRAM get mapped? Like $4000...$7FFF would mean decreasing ROM size right?

[GroovyBee]

I'm sure adding RAMs/POKEYs back then made the cartridges more expensive for A7800.

 

Atari didn't like it if you needed extra RAM on cart because it had become "prohibitively expensive and not allowed for future game development" as stated in the original ST based development kit notes. To use RAM on the cart you had to contact them for permission first in writing.

 

But adding something to a peripheral port which was meant for adding storage device isn't a big deal.

 

The point being that it wasn't available or done back then.

 

Regarding Tempest on 7800, where does your 16K SRAM get mapped? Like $4000...$7FFF would mean decreasing ROM size right?

 

The RAM is mapped to 0x4000. Although the game image is 128K that is a feature of the emulator cart detection code that assumes things based on a combination of the cart size and the *.a78 header, instead of just the *.a78 header on its own. The game is actually less than 16K.

[DracIsBack]

I'm sure adding RAMs/POKEYs back then made the cartridges more expensive for A7800.

 

It did, though it didn't always reflect in the price to the customer.

 

In terms of games with additional RAM, at the time, there were three games released with 8K (Impossible Mission, Tower Toppler and Jinks) and two with 16K (Summer Games and Winter Games). If I remember right, Rescue on Fractalus was supposed to have 2K RAM as well. The prices of those games varied even amongst themselves.

 

In terms of POKEY, only Ballblazer and Commando had it. Again, Ballblazer was priced similarly to many games that didn't have POKEYs. Ditto for Commando when it came out.

 

Most 7800 games from 1988 and beyond had bankswitching beyond 48K. Alien Brigade goes up to 144K.

Edited March 23, 2010 by DracIsBack

[atariksi]

I'm sure adding RAMs/POKEYs back then made the cartridges more expensive for A7800.

 

Atari didn't like it if you needed extra RAM on cart because it had become "prohibitively expensive and not allowed for future game development" as stated in the original ST based development kit notes. To use RAM on the cart you had to contact them for permission first in writing.

 

But adding something to a peripheral port which was meant for adding storage device isn't a big deal.

 

The point being that it wasn't available or done back then.

 

Regarding Tempest on 7800, where does your 16K SRAM get mapped? Like $4000...$7FFF would mean decreasing ROM size right?

 

The RAM is mapped to 0x4000. Although the game image is 128K that is a feature of the emulator cart detection code that assumes things based on a combination of the cart size and the *.a78 header, instead of just the *.a78 header on its own. The game is actually less than 16K.

 

But just like it costs to make a cartridge, they could easily make a SD card or other storage "dongle" for the SIO port on A5200 for increased storage.

[atariksi]

I'm sure adding RAMs/POKEYs back then made the cartridges more expensive for A7800.

 

It did, though it didn't always reflect in the price to the customer.

 

In terms of games with additional RAM, at the time, there were three games released with 8K (Impossible Mission, Tower Toppler and Jinks) and two with 16K (Summer Games and Winter Games). If I remember right, Rescue on Fractalus was supposed to have 2K RAM as well. The prices of those games varied even amongst themselves.

 

In terms of POKEY, only Ballblazer and Commando had it. Again, Ballblazer was priced similarly to many games that didn't have POKEYs. Ditto for Commando when it came out.

 

Most 7800 games from 1988 and beyond had bankswitching beyond 48K. Alien Brigade goes up to 144K.

 

What location is POKEY mapped to on the carts? It seems like if you get a 48K cartridge, you would eat up most of linear 6502C space or is that 32K (linear ROM) + 16K banked ROM on the 48K carts.

[Ransom]

Maria has a gorgeous body and a beautiful face...but every time she opens her mouth, nothing but whiny screeches come out. Worse, an endless stream of flatulence comes out the other end! And on top of all that, she doesn't have anything interesting to talk about.

 

Meanwhile, Pam is a slightly chubby but still very pretty woman with a seductive voice who likes all the things you do. And since she hasn't had a date in years (not since Kenfused and Cafeman dumped her), she's very eager to please, unlike that stuck-up Maria.

 

I know who I'd rather date!

[GroovyBee]

But just like it costs to make a cartridge, they could easily make a SD card or other storage "dongle" for the SIO port on A5200 for increased storage.

 

Storage cards in the form factor of an SD or MMC did not exist 28 years ago when the A5200 was launched is the main problem.

 

Is there any code in the 5200 BIOS to control disk drives like the 1050? I suspect not.

[GroovyBee]

What location is POKEY mapped to on the carts? It seems like if you get a 48K cartridge, you would eat up most of linear 6502C space or is that 32K (linear ROM) + 16K banked ROM on the 48K carts.

 

POKEY is normally mapped to 0x4000 too. That would limit you to POKEY, 8K of RAM and 32K of ROM space (bank switched if you needed more).

[GroovyBee]

know who I'd rather date!

Maria is always up for a quickie but by the time Pam plods slowly up the stairs I've lost the urge .

[kool kitty89]

If Atari users fight this fiercely between the differences [and alleged] and superiority of various Atari platforms, there's no hope for the fanbois of the other non-Atari systems going up against them.

 

That is true ...

Worst case is when you've got a discussion with perople who love the A8+ST, others who love the A8+Amiga, and still others who love the C64+Amiga, and all of which have a tendency to look down upon one of the other platfomrs on there; those discussions tend to not stay "discussions" as such for very long, or very consistently at least.

 

 

 

Ofcourse, the 5200/atari 8-bit is the superior number one machine, nothing can beat it, ever.

Well... Except for the 7800 obviously .

 

That's true...if you duct taped a 5200 to it.

I think you mean duct take a 7800 to a 5200, I don't think it would work very well the other way around...

 

I'm sure adding RAMs/POKEYs back then made the cartridges more expensive for A7800.

 

It did, though it didn't always reflect in the price to the customer.

 

In terms of games with additional RAM, at the time, there were three games released with 8K (Impossible Mission, Tower Toppler and Jinks) and two with 16K (Summer Games and Winter Games). If I remember right, Rescue on Fractalus was supposed to have 2K RAM as well. The prices of those games varied even amongst themselves.

 

In terms of POKEY, only Ballblazer and Commando had it. Again, Ballblazer was priced similarly to many games that didn't have POKEYs. Ditto for Commando when it came out.

 

Most 7800 games from 1988 and beyond had bankswitching beyond 48K. Alien Brigade goes up to 144K.

With similar prices, there would be proportionally lower profits for such enhanced carts, of course. (that would be worth it if the enhancements made for significantly higher sales, or if the game was otherwise impossible)

 

I'd have though that Atari Corp wouldn't much care of the cost of carts if it was licenced 3rd parties publishing the games (it would be their loss, not atari's if things went wrong), but perhaps their distribution system wasn't set-up as such. Hell, it would have made sense for 3rd parties to use other sound chips too. (I'd immagine the SN76489 might have been an option for sound enhancement for 3rd parties, possibly cheaper than POKEY -simpler chip and much smaller package), or perhaps even the AY-3-8912 or AY-38912. (since there's no need for the I/O)

Edited March 23, 2010 by kool kitty89

[atariksi]

But just like it costs to make a cartridge, they could easily make a SD card or other storage "dongle" for the SIO port on A5200 for increased storage.

 

Storage cards in the form factor of an SD or MMC did not exist 28 years ago when the A5200 was launched is the main problem.

 

Is there any code in the 5200 BIOS to control disk drives like the 1050? I suspect not.

 

They had other means of storage and RAM/EEPROM drives would have helped as well. The DOS for even A8 is mostly loaded from disk and only some of it is in OS ROM. So they can just put that small part on the cartridge as it's only software. In fact, many boot disks don't have DOS -- they just need the boot-up procedure to load up.

[GroovyBee]

They had other means of storage and RAM/EEPROM drives would have helped as well. The DOS for even A8 is mostly loaded from disk and only some of it is in OS ROM. So they can just put that small part on the cartridge as it's only software. In fact, many boot disks don't have DOS -- they just need the boot-up procedure to load up.

 

Its a moot point. If it wasn't available for the A5200 28 years ago then you can't add it, just to beat the 7800 .

 

However, a computer keyboard/expansion was in the works for the 7800 :-

 

http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/7800/7800keyboard.html

 

So if you want your imaginary 5200 extra storage device I'll just plug it into the SIO on the keyboard expansion prototype for the 7800 .

[atariksi]

They had other means of storage and RAM/EEPROM drives would have helped as well. The DOS for even A8 is mostly loaded from disk and only some of it is in OS ROM. So they can just put that small part on the cartridge as it's only software. In fact, many boot disks don't have DOS -- they just need the boot-up procedure to load up.

 

Its a moot point. If it wasn't available for the A5200 28 years ago then you can't add it, just to beat the 7800 .

 

However, a computer keyboard/expansion was in the works for the 7800 :-

 

http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/7800/7800keyboard.html

 

So if you want your imaginary 5200 extra storage device I'll just plug it into the SIO on the keyboard expansion prototype for the 7800 .

 

They made the peripheral port for some reason and A5200 software is similar to A800 software so there's not much cost in making it work with existing A800 peripherals. So it's just your imagination; they already existed-- only the connector of the port was different.

 

And I am comparing stock machine capabilities-- adding hardware expansions can help any machine be better than it is. So either you allow for both to expand their hardware or neither.