What COULD the 5200 have done?

[Lynxpro]

http://pinouts.ru/Motherboard/ExpansionAtari5200_pinout.shtml The 5200 expansion port would be more capable than the cartridge port for adding RAM, not as good as the PBI on the XL series, of course (which included the full address range, clock signals, read/write line, select lines, and refresh line). The cart port had 14 bits addressed to it (16 kB), the expansion port had 15-bits (32 kB) of flat mapped address space. However, I'm not sure how DRAM could be managed with that, any cart based expansion would likely be SRAM like on the 7800, if DRAM could be used it all, it would mean including a DRAM controller on the board with the RAM chips.

Using the expansion port could have provided a total 48 kB flat mapped RAM, I think. (same as the 400/800)

 

 

Too bad they just didn't build expansion slots directly to the mobo and accessible through the [ginormous] case a la the A800. Love expansion cartridge memory. It could've been a boost to Atari Service Center business although not as user friendly as through the "traditional" expansion bus that was plug-and-play at power up.

[kool kitty89]

Too bad they just didn't build expansion slots directly to the mobo and accessible through the [ginormous] case a la the A800. Love expansion cartridge memory. It could've been a boost to Atari Service Center business although not as user friendly as through the "traditional" expansion bus that was plug-and-play at power up.

I thought the 5200 expansion port was directly on the board, an edge connector like the PBI, I'd have though. Granted, that wouldn't be a "slot" per se, as it's the male end, not the female. (a few more connections would be necessary to make it really useful for RAM expansion though, like the PBI was)

 

The 800's expansion slots were accessible through a flip top lid if I'm not mistaken, so that's user serviceable, it was the 400 which had to be opened up to get tot he RAM slots. (and I think required soldering to expand to a full 48 kB)

[Lynxpro]

Too bad they just didn't build expansion slots directly to the mobo and accessible through the [ginormous] case a la the A800. Love expansion cartridge memory. It could've been a boost to Atari Service Center business although not as user friendly as through the "traditional" expansion bus that was plug-and-play at power up.

I thought the 5200 expansion port was directly on the board, an edge connector like the PBI, I'd have though. Granted, that wouldn't be a "slot" per se, as it's the male end, not the female. (a few more connections would be necessary to make it really useful for RAM expansion though, like the PBI was)

 

The 800's expansion slots were accessible through a flip top lid if I'm not mistaken, so that's user serviceable, it was the 400 which had to be opened up to get tot he RAM slots. (and I think required soldering to expand to a full 48 kB)

 

 

What I meant was that expansion through the 5200's expansion port - or the 7800's, or the Intellivision's, or the TI 99/4A's - was more user friendly that other versions because it was basically like hooking up a cartridge... no warranty complications. Even with the flip-top on the A800, it was still plugging the memory carts directly inside the system which depending on Atari Inc's policy may or may not have voided the warranty if it was not done at an authorized Atari dealer or Service Center. Still, it would've been cool had the 5200 had the same option since it was sitting inside that giant case. Just imagine a whole row of memory cart slots waiting for more 16k carts. Wait, for that time, it probably would've been 8k carts. Since the system already had 16k built in, they probably would've maxed out under that scenario with 6 slots to bring it to the max of 64k. That still would've been awesome since we're talking about XEGS power in 1982 for kids from rich families [or ones where the father valued electronic gaming over say school supplies!]....

[atariksi]

Are you sure the 5200 expansion port could have been used to increase the system's actual physical memory?

 

http://pinouts.ru/Motherboard/ExpansionAtari5200_pinout.shtml The 5200 expansion port would be more capable than the cartridge port for adding RAM, not as good as the PBI on the XL series, of course (which included the full address range, clock signals, read/write line, select lines, and refresh line). The cart port had 14 bits addressed to it (16 kB), the expansion port had 15-bits (32 kB) of flat mapped address space. However, I'm not sure how DRAM could be managed with that, any cart based expansion would likely be SRAM like on the 7800, if DRAM could be used it all, it would mean including a DRAM controller on the board with the RAM chips.

Using the expansion port could have provided a total 48 kB flat mapped RAM, I think. (same as the 400/800)

 

This talk about the hack used for adding RAM to the VCS makes me wonder how David Crane managed to mix sound through the cart port from the DPC in Pitfall II. (the tricky nature of that might explain the noisy sound output in that game)

 

If you look at those pinouts, you see that A8..A10 is missing so you can have SRAMs/FLASH/etc. in 256 byte size windows mapped to $4000 or above. There's a select line there for $E000 so it doesn't have to overlap the cartridge area. So basically you have the following A5200 memory map:

 

$0000...$3FFF -- standard RAM (as is now)

$4000...$BFFF -- 32K standard ROM (as is now, but bankable within this range)

$C000...$C01F -- GTIA (as is now)

$D400...$D40F -- ANTIC (as is now)

$E000...$E0FF -- DRAM/SRAM/FLASH ram drive/SD card drive/etc. (do-able as plug-in-play)

$E800...$E80F -- POKEY (as is now)

$F800...$FC00 -- CharSet ROM (as is now)

$FC00...$FFFF -- OS ROM (as is now)

 

Note that you need the A14 line to prevent over-writing POKEY when $E000--$EFFF area is active.

 

One other expansion option is to put a bigger ROM in place of the current 2K ROM-- but that would involve opening up the unit and replacing a chip.

[atariksi]

Are you sure the 5200 expansion port could have been used to increase the system's actual physical memory?

 

http://pinouts.ru/Motherboard/ExpansionAtari5200_pinout.shtml The 5200 expansion port would be more capable than the cartridge port for adding RAM, not as good as the PBI on the XL series, of course (which included the full address range, clock signals, read/write line, select lines, and refresh line). The cart port had 14 bits addressed to it (16 kB), the expansion port had 15-bits (32 kB) of flat mapped address space. However, I'm not sure how DRAM could be managed with that, any cart based expansion would likely be SRAM like on the 7800, if DRAM could be used it all, it would mean including a DRAM controller on the board with the RAM chips.

Using the expansion port could have provided a total 48 kB flat mapped RAM, I think. (same as the 400/800)

 

This talk about the hack used for adding RAM to the VCS makes me wonder how David Crane managed to mix sound through the cart port from the DPC in Pitfall II. (the tricky nature of that might explain the noisy sound output in that game)

 

If you look at those pinouts, you see that A8..A10 is missing so you can have SRAMs/FLASH/etc. in 256 byte size windows mapped to $4000 or above. There's a select line there for $E000 so it doesn't have to overlap the cartridge area. So basically you have the following A5200 memory map:

 

$0000...$3FFF -- standard RAM (as is now)

$4000...$BFFF -- 32K standard ROM (as is now, but bankable within this range)

$C000...$C01F -- GTIA (as is now)

$D400...$D40F -- ANTIC (as is now)

$E000...$E0FF -- DRAM/SRAM/FLASH ram drive/SD card drive/etc. (do-able as plug-in-play)

$E800...$E80F -- POKEY (as is now)

$F800...$FC00 -- CharSet ROM (as is now)

$FC00...$FFFF -- OS ROM (as is now)

 

Note that you need the A14 line to prevent over-writing POKEY when $E000--$EFFF area is active.

 

One other expansion option is to put a bigger ROM in place of the current 2K ROM-- but that would involve opening up the unit and replacing a chip.

 

A11 line is to prevent over-writing POKEY since it's the 11th bit (counting from 0).

[kool kitty89]

What I meant was that expansion through the 5200's expansion port - or the 7800's, or the Intellivision's, or the TI 99/4A's - was more user friendly that other versions because it was basically like hooking up a cartridge... no warranty complications. Even with the flip-top on the A800, it was still plugging the memory carts directly inside the system which depending on Atari Inc's policy may or may not have voided the warranty if it was not done at an authorized Atari dealer or Service Center. Still, it would've been cool had the 5200 had the same option since it was sitting inside that giant case. Just imagine a whole row of memory cart slots waiting for more 16k carts. Wait, for that time, it probably would've been 8k carts. Since the system already had 16k built in, they probably would've maxed out under that scenario with 6 slots to bring it to the max of 64k. That still would've been awesome since we're talking about XEGS power in 1982 for kids from rich families [or ones where the father valued electronic gaming over say school supplies!]....

 

I highly doubt installing the RAM modules at home on an A800 would void the warranty, anyway, here's the installation if you haven't seen it: http://www.pcworld.com/article/181421/inside_the_atari_800.html (I haven't seen any good pictures of a disassembled 400 though) I believe that 5th, larger card seen with the RF sheild removed is the CPU board.

As you can see, the original (1979) atari 800 used 16 kB RAM expansion cards with a capacity for 3x 16 kB cards plus the 10 kB OS ROM. I'd guess the original 800 shipped with an 8 kB RAM card installed.

 

With the way the memory is mapped, the 400/800 support a maximum of 48 kB without bank switching (unless you used the cartridge slots too). The XL and XE series used bank switching to expand this.

 

Having a bunch of expansion slots would significantly add to cost and is unnecessary for a game console. Most practical is what they did, single board with soldered/socketed chips and a simple PCB edge connector for the expansion bus. (the expansion bus could have added a bit more though)

 

 

 

And Atariksi, the 5200 only has 14 address bits on the cartridge slot, right (0-13), so only provides 16 kB of flat mapped cartridge space?

[Crazyace]

As Atariksi said, only A0-A7 , A11 , and A14 are available on the expansion connector.

The cartridge port has A0-A13 and 2 select lines to pick 2 16k areas.

[atariksi]

...

And Atariksi, the 5200 only has 14 address bits on the cartridge slot, right (0-13), so only provides 16 kB of flat mapped cartridge space?

 

As CrazyEights said, the select lines allow for the 32KB cartridge space. You use the two different select lines to select which 16K so end up with 32K. The expansion connector looks like is set-up for a sector-based drive (up to 256 bytes/sector).

[kool kitty89]

As Atariksi said, only A0-A7 , A11 , and A14 are available on the expansion connector.

The cartridge port has A0-A13 and 2 select lines to pick 2 16k areas.

 

Oh, duh, I can't believe I missed that... SO the expansion port wouldn't be that useful.

 

Does the 400/800 cart slot also have select lines for that purpose, from the pinout diagram, pins 14 and A seem to appear that way.

[atariksi]

As Atariksi said, only A0-A7 , A11 , and A14 are available on the expansion connector.

The cartridge port has A0-A13 and 2 select lines to pick 2 16k areas.

 

Oh, duh, I can't believe I missed that... SO the expansion port wouldn't be that useful.

 

Does the 400/800 cart slot also have select lines for that purpose, from the pinout diagram, pins 14 and A seem to appear that way.

 

Expansion port is still useful for flash drives or other storage devices or for extending ROM BIOS. Not good for linear video frame buffers. I'm sure you can write some audio player that plays hours of digitized music off of the expansion port in real-time. Atari 8-bit computers do have selects for which 8K bank to use whether at $8000 or $A000 but not for $4000, but they do have a r/w signal on the cartridge port and allow for banking as well.

[Crazyace]

For the 5200 I think the most important things on the expansion connector are the pokey serial lines. However I don't think the connector would be that much help for games ( I'm not sure where exactly it was physically located on the 5200 either )

[CV Gus]

Now, CrazyAce and DracIsBack just helped answer my question.

 

I don't know how much memory expansion would've been required or what it would have entailed, but those clips were amazing. Especially the multi-plane scrolling in that last one.

 

THIS is what I've been talking about all of this time, for a few years now. We've seen what a CV was actually capable of, and now what a 5200 could do. The multi-plane scrolling from both is quite good. As is the on-screen action.

 

So if the CV and 5200 had not been orphaned and dumped, if both had been allowed to benefit from the "learning curve," imagine how much longer they'd've lasted. There would have been NO WAY the NES could've taken the USA by storm the way it did; it did so because there was a void there. But against such systems, with established bases? NO WAY.

 

We see hints, though. Lord of the Dungeon for the CV; such RPGs, so popular on home consoles during the NES/SMS era, were quite do-able for both. As were others (Escape from the Mindmaster on the CV, for example). Ballblazer on the 5200.

 

And now, those clips.

 

They were huge helps, and I thank you both. Any others? I'd like to see them!

[ZylonBane]

And now, those clips. They were huge helps, and I thank you both. Any others? I'd like to see them!

You seriously didn't know the 5200 was just a consolized Atari 8-bit computer? There are hundreds of videos on YouTube showing what this hardware is capable of. Just look up Yoomp, or Koronis Rift, or Alternate Reality, or Numen, or Drunk Chessoard, or Mercenary, or Encounter, or so on and so forth.

[CV Gus]

And now, those clips. They were huge helps, and I thank you both. Any others? I'd like to see them!

You seriously didn't know the 5200 was just a consolized Atari 8-bit computer? There are hundreds of videos on YouTube showing what this hardware is capable of. Just look up Yoomp, or Koronis Rift, or Alternate Reality, or Numen, or Drunk Chessoard, or Mercenary, or Encounter, or so on and so forth.

 

Of course I knew that the 5200 was a variation of an Atari (400? 800?) computer- this has been explained since 1982.

 

But it is NOT one exactly. For example, memory limitations. A computer can get/dump more information as it needs it via the cassette drive or disc drive; so theoretically even the earliest computer games could be of any size (Time Zone was on six discs).

 

So what was the 5200 capable of doing within its memory limits? How hard or easy was it to add memory to the cartridge if need be? Those clips were terrific, but if that took up all of the 5200's memory, or any decent-sized game would need much more with those visuals, then there's a problem.

Edited March 31, 2010 by CV Gus

[kool kitty89]

But it is NOT one exactly. For example, memory limitations. A computer can get/dump more information as it needs it via the cassette drive or disc drive; so theoretically even the earliest computer games could be of any size (Time Zone was on six discs).

 

So what was the 5200 capable of doing within its memory limits? How hard or easy was it to add memory to the cartridge if need be? Those clips were terrific, but if that took up all of the 5200's memory, or any decent-sized game would need much more with those visuals, then there's a problem.

 

That's not a memory limit you describe there... bank switching is unlimited, so you could have carts with that much memory on them... except they'd have been prohibitively expensive BITD.

 

The memory limitations which DO exist is the onboard RAM, which would put it in similar limitations as any A8 computer with 16 kB of DRAM. Since games are all cartridge, that's another difference: any games loading from disk have to use RAM to run from, but for carts, lots can just be read straight from ROM -so any of those homebrew games which require lots of RAM for just that reason could be done on suitably large cartridges too. (again, it gets to a point where they're prohibitively large)

For the time, if the 5200 had persisted into teh late 80s, you'd probably have seen 128 kB, 256 kB, and perhaps 512 kB bankswitched games. (there were quite a few 512 kB games on the SMS and NES -maybe some even larger ones) Anything much bigger gets cost prohibitive though. (unless games are still coming in the early 90s) 512 kB is 4 Mbits of course. (so SMS games labeled "4x mega power" were 512 kB)

 

Any effects which absolutely required more RAM would have required RAM expansion on the cart too, and that gets both tricky and expensive.

[atariksi]

But it is NOT one exactly. For example, memory limitations. A computer can get/dump more information as it needs it via the cassette drive or disc drive; so theoretically even the earliest computer games could be of any size (Time Zone was on six discs).

 

So what was the 5200 capable of doing within its memory limits? How hard or easy was it to add memory to the cartridge if need be? Those clips were terrific, but if that took up all of the 5200's memory, or any decent-sized game would need much more with those visuals, then there's a problem.

 

That's not a memory limit you describe there... bank switching is unlimited, so you could have carts with that much memory on them... except they'd have been prohibitively expensive BITD.

 

The memory limitations which DO exist is the onboard RAM, which would put it in similar limitations as any A8 computer with 16 kB of DRAM. Since games are all cartridge, that's another difference: any games loading from disk have to use RAM to run from, but for carts, lots can just be read straight from ROM -so any of those homebrew games which require lots of RAM for just that reason could be done on suitably large cartridges too. (again, it gets to a point where they're prohibitively large)

For the time, if the 5200 had persisted into teh late 80s, you'd probably have seen 128 kB, 256 kB, and perhaps 512 kB bankswitched games. (there were quite a few 512 kB games on the SMS and NES -maybe some even larger ones) Anything much bigger gets cost prohibitive though. (unless games are still coming in the early 90s) 512 kB is 4 Mbits of course. (so SMS games labeled "4x mega power" were 512 kB)

 

Any effects which absolutely required more RAM would have required RAM expansion on the cart too, and that gets both tricky and expensive.

 

I think for static videos/animations/audio, you can put them into banked ROM. But for stuff where you dynanically alter the videos/animations/etc., RAM would be needed. Only exceptions is sprites which can overlay on a ROM-based animation. No software sprites can be put on animation running from ROM. Then again there's interlaced graphics modes which eats up two 8K buffers of RAM.

[kool kitty89]

I think for static videos/animations/audio, you can put them into banked ROM. But for stuff where you dynanically alter the videos/animations/etc., RAM would be needed. Only exceptions is sprites which can overlay on a ROM-based animation. No software sprites can be put on animation running from ROM. Then again there's interlaced graphics modes which eats up two 8K buffers of RAM.

 

Of you stuck with 160x192 for such modes though, it could be done in 2x 7.5 kB buffers, right, so you'd still have 1 kB remaining? (granted, that remaining 1 kB would impose other limitations)

[atariksi]

I think for static videos/animations/audio, you can put them into banked ROM. But for stuff where you dynanically alter the videos/animations/etc., RAM would be needed. Only exceptions is sprites which can overlay on a ROM-based animation. No software sprites can be put on animation running from ROM. Then again there's interlaced graphics modes which eats up two 8K buffers of RAM.

 

Of you stuck with 160x192 for such modes though, it could be done in 2x 7.5 kB buffers, right, so you'd still have 1 kB remaining? (granted, that remaining 1 kB would impose other limitations)

 

Well, normal PM graphics would use up 2KB unless you complicate the video buffers and put some scanlines in unused space of PM graphics area. Then you have stack, zero page variables needed by OS and/or game, nonzero memory area needed by game or OS, etc. You could go for double resolution PM graphics and avoid sprites that overlap stack or other areas but too restricted.

[potatohead]

For example, can anyone here do working images or videos of a better-looking Pac-Man, Joust, and Missile Command, or Vanguard? A later game, perhaps? Operation Wolf, or a Street Fighter-style game, KLAX, or the like? The CV has Yi-Ar Kung Fu, so what would the 5200 have?

 

The 5200 would have a perfect conversion of Doom. I don't have pictures, so you just have to believe me. For existing software, please follow this link

 

OT: That link is bad ass funny.