cybercylon Posted April 20, 2010 Share Posted April 20, 2010 I haven't really paid much attention to the classic computing scene over the years and have focused mostly on consoles. However, there was CIB commodore 128 at Goodwill today (for $9!... pics forth coming this weekend to the thrift finds thread), so I couldn't resist. At some point, I plan on picking up an Atari 8 bit (800 XL maybe), and maybe an Apple IIe (that one was my first back in the day). So what are the must haves? I'm primarily interested in games as I plan to have my own review web site that compares games ported to different consoles and the more popular 8 bit computers. I assume that there were not too many 128 specific games, but that is okay since most of the C64 ones work, correct? A disk drive would be nice, but aren't those rather expensive. Has anyone made a cable that allows one to use one of the other two video ports to hook it up to a modern TV or computer monitor? I'm not really interested in picking up a dedicated commodore specific monitor. Don't have room. Thanks for any advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatta Posted April 20, 2010 Share Posted April 20, 2010 As far as I know the only commercial games worth playing that use 128 mode are a few Infocom text adventures. And the only enhancement there is 80 column mode. (IIRC, you have to use the RGBI output to use 80 column mode). That's ok, just about anything for the 64 will work on the 128. There's another thread here for C64 recommendations. I connect my 128 with a Sega Genesis Model 1 AV cable. The pinout is different so you have to check which RCA plug goes with which pin. This will give you composite easily. The same jack will give you s-video if you can find/build a cable for it. This is on my to-do list. Either of these is very convenient and will give you good quality video. The RGBI port needs to be hooked up to something that can do 15khz sync. Most computer monitors won't go below 30khz, so you have to pick up a commodore (or generic CGA) monitor to use that port. I haven't found a reason to do that yet. Most of the best games for the 64 are on disc, so you'll want to pick up some sort of solution for that. I was lucky enough to get a 1571 drive with mine, which is a wonderful piece of hardware. It'll also work with the standard 1541, which is slower, louder, and less reliable. It's also cheaper, you'll probably spend more on shipping than the drive itself. There's also some flash drive solutions available. There's another thread here for that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 20, 2010 Share Posted April 20, 2010 As far as I know the only commercial games worth playing that use 128 mode are a few Infocom text adventures. There are a few others, such as the C128-specific version of Kikstart that adds loads of extra courses (there's a version of that patched for the stock C64 as well), the extended Last V8 with clearer samples and a third level before the originals and a couple of C64 mode games that use the 2MHz "fast" mode of the CPU to give them an extra kick; Uridium Plus, Paradroid Turbo (and the Heavy Metal edition), Morpheus, Alleykat and if memory serves Intensity all do that. And the only enhancement there is 80 column mode. The 2MHz mode is the other enhancement; it can't be enabled all the time on the 40 column display (which is where the incompatibility with certain games comes from, turning it on constantly scrambles the output from the VIC-II) but can be left running for 80 column stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 There's a space trader game that shows up regularly on ebay that is C128 specific. It sells starting at $1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I wrote this Space Invaders clone back in the 80s. It utilizes the 80 column display and 2 MHz mode. 128invaders.zip 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cebus Capucinis Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 C128 for $9! You lucky bastard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 how see if you can snag yourself a C128-D for 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted April 21, 2010 Share Posted April 21, 2010 I think it's just too bad that there's hardly any "must haves" for the 128. So few that personally, I don't see a reason to own one - since they're so huge too. I finally got over my bias and got C64 last year, and I've pretty much had a blast checking it out! Prior to this, I found it unbelieveable (from an Atari user's perspective) that the C128 wasn't "the sh*t" of the Commodore 8-bit world.....and when I asked, it was always because it was so unsupported. I'd rather have a small tidy C64 on the desk than one of those great big things running in C64 mode all the time. Plus C64 is so much cheaper it's easy to get spares to keep on the shelf. Really a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercylon Posted April 22, 2010 Author Share Posted April 22, 2010 I think it's just too bad that there's hardly any "must haves" for the 128. So few that personally, I don't see a reason to own one - since they're so huge too. I finally got over my bias and got C64 last year, and I've pretty much had a blast checking it out! Prior to this, I found it unbelieveable (from an Atari user's perspective) that the C128 wasn't "the sh*t" of the Commodore 8-bit world.....and when I asked, it was always because it was so unsupported. I'd rather have a small tidy C64 on the desk than one of those great big things running in C64 mode all the time. Plus C64 is so much cheaper it's easy to get spares to keep on the shelf. Really a shame. Yea... I knew there wasn't much for the 128 specifically, but anything for the C64 would fit too, but I'm sure there are threads about that. You are right... it is more bulky, but couldn't pass on that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyranthraxus Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 unbelieveable (from an Atari user's perspective) that the C128 wasn't "the sh*t" of the Commodore 8-bit world.....and when I asked, it was always because it was so unsupported. I'd rather have a small tidy C64 on the desk than one of those great big things running in C64 mode I know what you mean, it should be the king of 8-bit computers but it was a dud. Part of the problem was that it cost a lot more than a 64 and Commodore was too addicted to the 64 money train to phase it out and go all out with 128. In the end all it had to offer was a few decent business apps. The 128D though is a pretty cool variant to collect. It was the classic mistake of the 1980s computer era, all these companies pushing their 16 bit line while still spending R&D money on their 8-bit line while never fully phasing out the base model that was the initial success. Apple did it with the IIgs. Atari did it with the 1200 and did it again with their late 80s 2600 & 7800 policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 I have a 128D. I think I tested it and then stored it away to never use it again. I need to replace one of the keyswitches on the keyboard. I think I paid around $40 for it which isn't bad when you consider it has a built in drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatta Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 I like my 128. It's not that much bigger than the C64, the keyboard is nicer to use, the stock power supply is more reliable, and the 1571 I got with it is wonderful. Of course you can use a 1571 with a C64, but you'll probably have to seek it out seperately. I'm not a fan of the appearance of the C64 either. I do get your point though. At least the IIgs had a bunch of good games for the 16 bit mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 (edited) The C128 is a classic case of what happens when a company competes with itself. Commodore tried shutting down C64 & C64c production a couple of times in the mid 80's, but the consumers wouldn't let 'em! Imagine today having more orders for something than you're capable of producing. But anyway, yes - I think everyone who knows what a C128 or C128D is feels the machine and ultimately the consumer, were gypped. Never had a chance to blossom. Even though the thing is really large and you end up using it in C64 mode most of the time, it does have a really nice keyboard. The regular C64 keyboard is junk compared to it. If you're into typing on your C64, you'll really appreciate the 128's. While a little more risky, I feel Commodore could have ditched the C64, instead of resuming production on an "obsolete" computer. If they would have stuck to their guns, NOT produced the C64c & 1541c and stepped up the production of 128's, they would have been in a better position to cut deals and effectively market the 128 to all the C64 customers. The 128 was an excellent product from a design standpoint and provided a perfect price/performance ratio to the Amiga. Either the C64c should have never happened or the C128 should have never happened. Hindsight being 20/20, take your pick. Oh, as far as "must haves" for the 128... that would be a power supply of course. Without it, you're not going to be doing much in any of its modes. Edited April 22, 2010 by save2600 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 that would be a power supply of course. Without it, you're not going to be doing much in any of its modes. Says you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 (edited) Says you! LOL! Nice pic. So... is he going to use it as a doorstop somewhere or what? Edited April 22, 2010 by save2600 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 Says you! LOL! Nice pic. So... is he going to use it as a doorstop somewhere or what? No, he's got it mixed up with something else - back at home there's a skateboard connected to a 1084S and a disk drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 I don't know why people complain about the C64 keyboard. I don't have 64C but the keyboard looks to be made of the same stuff in a different color. The keys are smooth and responsive. When you press a long key, it never tilts and binds like it sometimes does on many versions of the Atari 800XL. There is no flex, and it has a pretty nice, quality feel. I was surprised. I will say the arrangement is a little strange (for traditional Atari user) with the big "RESTORE" key, etc. But I, for one, think it's pretty good. I'm trying to find what is so objectionable about it, without luck. I also like the classic look of the beige C64 which reminds me of the old Atari 800 days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 I'm trying to find what is so objectionable about it, without luck. Well, if you're going to compare it to an Atari keyboard... j/k No need to go there. Umm... for me, I don't like how it's tilted AND it sits up too high, which forces you to suspend your hands above the machine, which gets old real quick. The C64c and better yet, the 128 is more wedge shaped and that allows your wrists to comfortable lay on the desk for more stress free typing action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyranthraxus Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 I always had the 64C and the keyboard was good for its time, but after all these years its hard to imagine a keyboard without arrow keys and a keypad! Can you use the 128 keypad in 64 mode? Although I suppose even if it did work, few games would recognize that key configuration unless you can program the keys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbarius Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 (edited) that would be a power supply of course. Without it, you're not going to be doing much in any of its modes. Says you! Why does everyone always say he forgot the power supply when talking about that pic? Peek-a-boo?! Edited April 23, 2010 by Herbarius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Can you use the 128 keypad in 64 mode? No, unfortunately. I was extremely disappointed to discover this. If anyone's ever figured out a workaround or a hack (hardware or software), I'd love to know it. I've even yet to find a driver for the CardKey numeric keypad I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herbarius Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 (edited) Can you use the 128 keypad in 64 mode? No, unfortunately. I was extremely disappointed to discover this. If anyone's ever figured out a workaround or a hack (hardware or software), I'd love to know it. I've even yet to find a driver for the CardKey numeric keypad I have. It propably is possible, but at the cost of disabling the keypad for the 128 mode... I'm basing this on the existence of external numerical keypads for the C64 (AFAIK they connect to the userport). However, maybe you can build in a switch to make it usable in both modes (requiring you to flip the switch when changing modes). But it propably won't be easy. Edited April 23, 2010 by Herbarius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Can you use the 128 keypad in 64 mode? No, unfortunately. I was extremely disappointed to discover this. If anyone's ever figured out a workaround or a hack (hardware or software), I'd love to know it. I've even yet to find a driver for the CardKey numeric keypad I have. It propably is possible, but at the cost of disabling the keypad for the 128 mode... I'm basing this on the existence of external numerical keypads for the C64 (AFAIK they connect to the userport). However, maybe you can build in a switch to make it usable in both modes (requiring you to flip the switch when changing modes). But it propably won't be easy. Hmmm... okay, thanks for the thoughts. That sounds probable, but I haven't ever looked into it. BTW, the CardKey numeric keypad I have for the C64 plugs into the joystick port. It's the only NK I've ever looked at for the C64, so I have no idea how any other models are. I have the manual for the CardKey numeric keypad, so I know it's for the Vic-20/C64, I just don't have the software disk for it. And have never found it online either, so it's kinda useless to me, unfortunately. What the C64 needs is a numeric keypad though. It's one of the features of the 128 that I like best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Can you use the 128 keypad in 64 mode? Although I suppose even if it did work, few games would recognize that key configuration unless you can program the keys. Yes, the registers used to read the 128's extra keys are not disabled when switching into 64 mode. For compatibility the 64 ROMs weren't changed. http://www.commodore128.org/index.php?topic=114.0 2MHz mode can also be triggered on the 64, but the screen will garble when you use it. I wrote an interrupt routine that would turn 2MHz on at the end of the screen, then turn it back off at the start of the screen - it gave a nice performance boost. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Can you use the 128 keypad in 64 mode? Although I suppose even if it did work, few games would recognize that key configuration unless you can program the keys. Yes, the registers used to read the 128's extra keys are not disabled when switching into 64 mode. For compatibility the 64 ROMs weren't changed. http://www.commodore128.org/index.php?topic=114.0 2MHz mode can also be triggered on the 64, but the screen will garble when you use it. I wrote an interrupt routine that would turn 2MHz on at the end of the screen, then turn it back off at the start of the screen - it gave a nice performance boost. HOLY COW!!! That's AWESOME!!! I had no idea. All I knew is that in 64 mode it didn't work, I had no idea there was a wedge solution possible. Thanks for posting that! I may have to clean up one or both of my 128's and even start using them as my main 64 machines, just for this reason. :thumbsup: :love: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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