Sell me on a 5200

[atariksi]

If you think that buffer is in the 7800, it's a figment of your imagination.

 

I never said it wasn't but your statement implied that the 7800 couldn't do those sorts of games when quite clearly it can.

 

Well, follow the original argument-- someone made a statement and I countered it.

[GroovyBee]

Donkey Kong is another example where higher resolution of some implementations with a few more colors doesn't override the collisions, smooth graphics of A8 version (or A5200 version).

 

But the collisions in A8 Donkey Kong are mostly boundary box checks done in software with only the prizes done in hardware. Thus having hardware collision detection isn't an advantage when it isn't used very much.

[DracIsBack]

 

That's just the problem. You just want to SHOW-OFF some game to someone while I PLAY the games and then decide.

 

Wow -didn't realize you had such supernatural powers to be able to tell how much I played games or not.

 

Collision detection is part of the experience of the user if you're not just showing people static screen shots.

 

Yes, good collision detection is necessary for a good game, but no one gets excited about it unless it really stinks in a game.

 

And in the conversation about 'graphics' specifically, I don't think it applies.

[4Ks]

If a game only works on development software and not on the system itself, you can't say the system is capable of running it. That's like saying that because a program works on a computer it can work on a Palm Pilot.

 

Tempest on the 7800 works fine on the real hardware apart from the inevitable cross porting bugs. In fact it worked on the real hardware first .

 

It sounded as though atariksi was saying that 7800 was missing something necessary that the development software had, and you were saying that if it ran on the dev it would run on 7800. Oh well, I guess I shouldn't join in on tech arguments.

[atariksi]

If a game only works on development software and not on the system itself, you can't say the system is capable of running it. That's like saying that because a program works on a computer it can work on a Palm Pilot.

 

Tempest on the 7800 works fine on the real hardware apart from the inevitable cross porting bugs. In fact it worked on the real hardware first .

 

It sounded as though atariksi was saying that 7800 was missing something necessary that the development software had, and you were saying that if it ran on the dev it would run on 7800. Oh well, I guess I shouldn't join in on tech arguments.

 

Yeah, 7800 is missing a POKEY and 16K RAM which one or the other is sometimes present in a few cartridges. Original argument was: "is the 7800 graphics that much better then the 5200?" and I stated "no, it depends on implementation" so without taking hardware expansion into account via cartridge, 5200 would excel in either audio or video/graphics.

[Mirage]

Love the 5200. Yet I have a strong general apathy for the 7800... yawn. 5200 = '80s arcade excellence. The Best controllers are worth every penny, or just replace the specific parts you need yourself. I've had my Best controllers for well over a year now, and they really do permanently fix any and all real issues (as opposed to imaginary issues).

[atariksi]

 

That's just the problem. You just want to SHOW-OFF some game to someone while I PLAY the games and then decide.

 

Wow -didn't realize you had such supernatural powers to be able to tell how much I played games or not.

...

I don't need supernatural power to read your posts. See your post #31 where you're arguing: "Show me a game on the 5200 that looks as good "; key word LOOKS. Then again in post #44, you claim collision detection is not something to tell someone whereas it's important aspect of games.

 

Collision detection is part of the experience of the user if you're not just showing people static screen shots.

 

Yes, good collision detection is necessary for a good game, but no one gets excited about it unless it really stinks in a game.

 

And in the conversation about 'graphics' specifically, I don't think it applies.

 

You isolated it to collision detection but I specifically stated "smoothness of graphics, collision detection, etc." YOU SEE the collision detection or lack thereof so it's related to a graphical function. Another example, is the PC games of 1980s vs. Atari games. Atari games had lower resolution and less color depth but they were better in general to PC games using CGA/EGA because PC had slower updating of graphics and inferior collision detection and other factors.

 

I also remember playing Doom in 320*200*256 on VGA and then on a 24-bit 1024*768 display and the 320*200*256 was much better and smoother since the display card couldn't maintain a good enough refresh rate in high-resolution and color depth helped very little.

[atariksi]

Donkey Kong is another example where higher resolution of some implementations with a few more colors doesn't override the collisions, smooth graphics of A8 version (or A5200 version).

 

But the collisions in A8 Donkey Kong are mostly boundary box checks done in software with only the prizes done in hardware. Thus having hardware collision detection isn't an advantage when it isn't used very much.

 

Okay, but some versions of Donkey Kong just have it implemented badly in software.

[Hydro Thunder]

 

Back to the original topic, a 5200 has adventure II exclusively and that game rocks. Plus, if you like early 1980s arcade games, it has a KILLER library of them! Closer to arcade than 2600 versions and more of them than on the 7800.

 

Specifically Moon Patrol...the number one reason I can't ignore the 5200. Second reason being the super sweet Trak-Ball...

[GroovyBee]

Yeah, 7800 is missing a POKEY and 16K RAM which one or the other is sometimes present in a few cartridges. Original argument was: "is the 7800 graphics that much better then the 5200?" and I stated "no, it depends on implementation" so without taking hardware expansion into account via cartridge, 5200 would excel in either audio or video/graphics.

 

These games :-

 

 

Are all running on a 7800 with stock RAM. I'd be interested to see any 5200 game that have graphics of equal or better quality.

[Cebus Capucinis]

These games :-

 

 

Are all running on a 7800 with stock RAM. I'd be interested to see any 5200 game that have graphics of equal or better quality.

 

The only flaw in your argument I see is that two of those three games are not at my house currently. We should fix this problem immediately.

[DracIsBack]

I don't need supernatural power to read your posts. See your post #31 where you're arguing: "Show me a game on the 5200 that looks as good "; key word LOOKS. Then again in post #44, you claim collision detection is not something to tell someone whereas it's important aspect of games.

 

You miss the point.

 

i took issue with you saying the 7800 does not have better graphics than the 5200 and then discussing "collision detection". There are plenty of games in the 7800's library that look better than anything in the 5200's library and anyone with two eyes can see it. And to be fair, given that the 7800 is newer than the 5200, it should.

 

 

What I'm not saying is "the 5200 has worse games". Just taking issue with:

 

"No 7800 graphics aren't better than 5200"

 

Nothing I have seen on the 5200 has the graphics of ALIEN BRIGADE, TOWER TOPPLER, MIDNIGHT MUTANTS, SCRAPYARD DOG, SIRIUS etc. Do you seriously expect me to believe that you could replicate GroovyBee's Apple Snaffle on the 5200?

 

Collision detection is an important aspect of games. But when discussing whether one system is capable of better graphics than another, collision detection doesn't have the relevance of things like resolution, number of sprites, number of colors etc.

 

The only flaw in your argument I see is that two of those three games are not at my house currently. We should fix this problem immediately.

 

I have Apple Snaffle and Worm in my house but that Halloween game remains hidden. I agree, we should fix the problem immediately.

Edited July 12, 2010 by DracIsBack

[Kjmann]

 

Back to the original topic, a 5200 has adventure II exclusively and that game rocks. Plus, if you like early 1980s arcade games, it has a KILLER library of them! Closer to arcade than 2600 versions and more of them than on the 7800.

 

Specifically Moon Patrol...the number one reason I can't ignore the 5200. Second reason being the super sweet Trak-Ball...

 

 

Moon Patrol on the 5200 and 8-bit is a great game, but the XL/XE will always out do (in my opinion) the 5200 because of the controller issue. no amount of "Fixing" the 5200 Controllers will ever make the 5200 superior.

 

Here are some Points in response to the 5200 vs 8-bit discussion that seems to have developed here.

 

1 - what good is a system that you have to go and immediately buy a different controller just to make it playable.

 

2 - don't tell me the original controllers are playable. anything that doesn't self center is a poor excuse as a controller when it's being used for playing classic arcade games.

 

3 - Don't bother mentioning Centipede or missile command. There are good track ball versions of those out there for the 8-bit. as for Pole Position, it had great control on the 8-bit. there are a great many 5200 people that have said so themselves.

 

4 - Not To Mention the Ram Differences (8-bit,48k vs 5200,16k) and cart Size limitations (8-bit,128k vs 5200,32k). The Numbers Speak for themselves in that category. (These Cart size and RAM issues are the Main Reasons that we never did Tempest Xtreem for the 5200. It just couldn't handle it.)

 

Bottom line is that the 5200 takes quite a hit when it comes to the controllers. Most 5200's that are for sale DO NOT come with a good 3rd party controller (like the wico). when one wants to buy one of those controllers, it usually ends up costing more than the person paid for the unit itself and that's just wrong.

 

Now after saying all this I must interject that I DO own a 5200 and have the Best Gold Joysticks. They do work decently. the system is fun. but, unless you're a Hard Core collector like I am, it hardly justifies paying for all the junk necessary to enjoy the system. my 5200 system sits in storage in favor of my 8-bit being hooked up. The only game that is NOT available for the 8-bit from the 5200 Library is adventure II. I personally Don't think that game is reason enough to spend all that money on a console with that many flaws like the 5200.

[Cebus Capucinis]

 

Back to the original topic, a 5200 has adventure II exclusively and that game rocks. Plus, if you like early 1980s arcade games, it has a KILLER library of them! Closer to arcade than 2600 versions and more of them than on the 7800.

 

Specifically Moon Patrol...the number one reason I can't ignore the 5200. Second reason being the super sweet Trak-Ball...

 

 

Moon Patrol on the 5200 and 8-bit is a great game, but the XL/XE will always out do (in my opinion) the 5200 because of the controller issue. no amount of "Fixing" the 5200 Controllers will ever make the 5200 superior.

 

Here are some Points in response to the 5200 vs 8-bit discussion that seems to have developed here.

 

1 - what good is a system that you have to go and immediately buy a different controller just to make it playable.

 

2 - don't tell me the original controllers are playable. anything that doesn't self center is a poor excuse as a controller when it's being used for playing classic arcade games.

 

3 - Don't bother mentioning Centipede or missile command. There are good track ball versions of those out there for the 8-bit. as for Pole Position, it had great control on the 8-bit. there are a great many 5200 people that have said so themselves.

 

4 - Not To Mention the Ram Differences (8-bit,48k vs 5200,16k) and cart Size limitations (8-bit,128k vs 5200,32k). The Numbers Speak for themselves in that category. (These Cart size and RAM issues are the Main Reasons that we never did Tempest Xtreem for the 5200. It just couldn't handle it.)

 

Bottom line is that the 5200 takes quite a hit when it comes to the controllers. Most 5200's that are for sale DO NOT come with a good 3rd party controller (like the wico). when one wants to buy one of those controllers, it usually ends up costing more than the person paid for the unit itself and that's just wrong.

 

Now after saying all this I must interject that I DO own a 5200 and have the Best Gold Joysticks. They do work decently. the system is fun. but, unless you're a Hard Core collector like I am, it hardly justifies paying for all the junk necessary to enjoy the system. my 5200 system sits in storage in favor of my 8-bit being hooked up. The only game that is NOT available for the 8-bit from the 5200 Library is adventure II. I personally Don't think that game is reason enough to spend all that money on a console with that many flaws like the 5200.

 

Apparently this means you must be bad at video games, because anyone who has anything negative to say about the 5200 clearly is bad at video games.

 

Not my argument, BTW.

 

Personally, I'm going to buy another one as soon as I get the chance. Even though I didn't like it when I first got one, I didn't feel like I really gave it enough of a chance. I played a couple games for a few hours and got so frustrated at the controllers I passed it on. I think if I played more of the library I'd probably be more inclined to like it, so I'll definitely be buying another 5200 in the near future.

[atariksi]

I don't need supernatural power to read your posts. See your post #31 where you're arguing: "Show me a game on the 5200 that looks as good "; key word LOOKS. Then again in post #44, you claim collision detection is not something to tell someone whereas it's important aspect of games.

 

You miss the point.

 

i took issue with you saying the 7800 does not have better graphics than the 5200 and then discussing "collision detection". There are plenty of games in the 7800's library that look better than anything in the 5200's library and anyone with two eyes can see it. And to be fair, given that the 7800 is newer than the 5200, it should.

 

...

I stated clearly that it depends on implementation and gave the example of Qix (see post #29). Obviously, you have better graphics on A5200 on games that use large r/w buffers. I don't have the entire library of Atari 7800 and 5200 games to compare with but I'm sure there are other games like Defender, Gyruss, etc. that benefit from GTIA and ANTIC's ability to do line replication, pixel replication, and allow quick screen updates. And various text modes as well. And my point involving collision detection was the following (post #39): "Looks don't make a game nor everything about graphics. Graphics include smooth motion, collision detection, etc. " I was addressing just looks like screen-shots address. GTIA is a graphics chip and it contains collision detection circuitry, graphics modes and color palette amongst other things. Its also obvious that collision detection relates to visuals (graphics).

 

What I'm not saying is "the 5200 has worse games". Just taking issue with:

 

"No 7800 graphics aren't better than 5200"

 

Nothing I have seen on the 5200 has the graphics of ALIEN BRIGADE, TOWER TOPPLER, MIDNIGHT MUTANTS, SCRAPYARD DOG, SIRIUS etc. Do you seriously expect me to believe that you could replicate GroovyBee's Apple Snaffle on the 5200?

 

Collision detection is an important aspect of games. But when discussing whether one system is capable of better graphics than another, collision detection doesn't have the relevance of things like resolution, number of sprites, number of colors etc.

Keep your shirt on; I never made a blanket statement like the one you misquoted above. If you read the full quote, you'll know what I wrote.

[atariksi]

 

Back to the original topic, a 5200 has adventure II exclusively and that game rocks. Plus, if you like early 1980s arcade games, it has a KILLER library of them! Closer to arcade than 2600 versions and more of them than on the 7800.

 

Specifically Moon Patrol...the number one reason I can't ignore the 5200. Second reason being the super sweet Trak-Ball...

 

 

Moon Patrol on the 5200 and 8-bit is a great game, but the XL/XE will always out do (in my opinion) the 5200 because of the controller issue. no amount of "Fixing" the 5200 Controllers will ever make the 5200 superior.

 

Here are some Points in response to the 5200 vs 8-bit discussion that seems to have developed here.

 

1 - what good is a system that you have to go and immediately buy a different controller just to make it playable.

 

2 - don't tell me the original controllers are playable. anything that doesn't self center is a poor excuse as a controller when it's being used for playing classic arcade games.

 

3 - Don't bother mentioning Centipede or missile command. There are good track ball versions of those out there for the 8-bit. as for Pole Position, it had great control on the 8-bit. there are a great many 5200 people that have said so themselves.

 

4 - Not To Mention the Ram Differences (8-bit,48k vs 5200,16k) and cart Size limitations (8-bit,128k vs 5200,32k). The Numbers Speak for themselves in that category. (These Cart size and RAM issues are the Main Reasons that we never did Tempest Xtreem for the 5200. It just couldn't handle it.)

 

Bottom line is that the 5200 takes quite a hit when it comes to the controllers. Most 5200's that are for sale DO NOT come with a good 3rd party controller (like the wico). when one wants to buy one of those controllers, it usually ends up costing more than the person paid for the unit itself and that's just wrong.

 

Now after saying all this I must interject that I DO own a 5200 and have the Best Gold Joysticks. They do work decently. the system is fun. but, unless you're a Hard Core collector like I am, it hardly justifies paying for all the junk necessary to enjoy the system. my 5200 system sits in storage in favor of my 8-bit being hooked up. The only game that is NOT available for the 8-bit from the 5200 Library is adventure II. I personally Don't think that game is reason enough to spend all that money on a console with that many flaws like the 5200.

 

Apparently this means you must be bad at video games, because anyone who has anything negative to say about the 5200 clearly is bad at video games.

 

Not my argument, BTW.

 

Personally, I'm going to buy another one as soon as I get the chance. Even though I didn't like it when I first got one, I didn't feel like I really gave it enough of a chance. I played a couple games for a few hours and got so frustrated at the controllers I passed it on. I think if I played more of the library I'd probably be more inclined to like it, so I'll definitely be buying another 5200 in the near future.

 

Not my argument either. But looks don't define a good game.

[DracIsBack]

 

I stated clearly that it depends on implementation and gave the example of Qix (see post #29). Obviously, you have better graphics on A5200 on games that use large r/w buffers. I don't have the entire library of Atari 7800 and 5200 games to compare with but I'm sure there are other games like Defender, Gyruss, etc. that benefit from GTIA and ANTIC's ability to do line replication, pixel replication, and allow quick screen updates. And various text modes as well. And my point involving collision detection was the following (post #39): "Looks don't make a game nor everything about graphics. Graphics include smooth motion, collision detection, etc. " I was addressing just looks like screen-shots address. GTIA is a graphics chip and it contains collision detection circuitry, graphics modes and color palette amongst other things. Its also obvious that collision detection relates to visuals (graphics).

 

Clearly, you're one of those people that would argue whether or not shit is brown. Welcome to my IGNORE list.

[4Ks]

 

I stated clearly that it depends on implementation and gave the example of Qix (see post #29). Obviously, you have better graphics on A5200 on games that use large r/w buffers. I don't have the entire library of Atari 7800 and 5200 games to compare with but I'm sure there are other games like Defender, Gyruss, etc. that benefit from GTIA and ANTIC's ability to do line replication, pixel replication, and allow quick screen updates. And various text modes as well. And my point involving collision detection was the following (post #39): "Looks don't make a game nor everything about graphics. Graphics include smooth motion, collision detection, etc. " I was addressing just looks like screen-shots address. GTIA is a graphics chip and it contains collision detection circuitry, graphics modes and color palette amongst other things. Its also obvious that collision detection relates to visuals (graphics).

 

Clearly, you're one of those people that would argue whether or not shit is brown. Welcome to my IGNORE list.

 

People like you make me wish there were a - reputation point button on posts.

[Mirage]

I'm glad there's a + button.

 

May the 5200 vs. no 5200 debate rage on eternal. There will be 1000 more threads exactly like this over the next year too.

[shadow460]

I'm glad there's a + button.

 

May the 5200 vs. no 5200 debate rage on eternal. There will be 1000 more threads exactly like this over the next year too.

 

+1. Welcome to AtariAge, where debates like this rage on just for giggles. Personally I can't stand the 5200 one itty bitty tiny fraction, but I won't let my opinion deprive someone of the system when they might (very much unlike me) thoroughly enjoy it.

[jetset]

 

I stated clearly that it depends on implementation and gave the example of Qix (see post #29). Obviously, you have better graphics on A5200 on games that use large r/w buffers. I don't have the entire library of Atari 7800 and 5200 games to compare with but I'm sure there are other games like Defender, Gyruss, etc. that benefit from GTIA and ANTIC's ability to do line replication, pixel replication, and allow quick screen updates. And various text modes as well. And my point involving collision detection was the following (post #39): "Looks don't make a game nor everything about graphics. Graphics include smooth motion, collision detection, etc. " I was addressing just looks like screen-shots address. GTIA is a graphics chip and it contains collision detection circuitry, graphics modes and color palette amongst other things. Its also obvious that collision detection relates to visuals (graphics).

 

Clearly, you're one of those people that would argue whether or not shit is brown. Welcome to my IGNORE list.

 

Was there something bad about what he said (other than proving his point and disproving yours) that offensive to put him on your ignore list AND publically announce it? You must have one hella-long ignore list!

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

All I know is I have never seen a 5200 in person let alone played one and I have seen tons of posts here and in other forums in both support and against it, and I have seen lot's of videos and read a lot of info etc. All I know for certain is any console that can make people so crazy I just HAVE to own one day and experience for myself! I guess I am weird that way.

[+wood_jl]

I've had my Best controllers for well over a year now, and they really do permanently fix any and all real issues (as opposed to imaginary issues).

 

THIS is the kind of testimony I was looking for, yet surprisingly had never seen. Thank You!

[+wood_jl]

 

I stated clearly that it depends on implementation and gave the example of Qix (see post #29). Obviously, you have better graphics on A5200 on games that use large r/w buffers. I don't have the entire library of Atari 7800 and 5200 games to compare with but I'm sure there are other games like Defender, Gyruss, etc. that benefit from GTIA and ANTIC's ability to do line replication, pixel replication, and allow quick screen updates. And various text modes as well. And my point involving collision detection was the following (post #39): "Looks don't make a game nor everything about graphics. Graphics include smooth motion, collision detection, etc. " I was addressing just looks like screen-shots address. GTIA is a graphics chip and it contains collision detection circuitry, graphics modes and color palette amongst other things. Its also obvious that collision detection relates to visuals (graphics).

 

Clearly, you're one of those people that would argue whether or not shit is brown. Welcome to my IGNORE list.

 

Ha ha! What about those times it's green or tan? Ha ha ha just kidding.

[+wood_jl]

I definitely prefer the 800XL (etc) but I've never ruled out not owning one. I bought a couple 5200 A/V mods - one for my 400 and the other for.....a 5200 one day????

 

So let's see if we can bypass the arguments and get to some good 5200 points so I can keep thinking about getting one day:

 

 

1) The Best controllers can fix the controller problems, definitively. This is a HUGE HUGE DEAL even though they're expensive.

2) Adventure II not available on 800XL/etc. What else is great an exclusive? Adventure II keeps me thinking about 5200.

3) Star Raiders, Missile Command (what else?) better with analog control.

4) Trak-ball controller good - for which games?