Sell me on a 5200

[Toraborakid]

So I recently aquired a 7800 and fell in love with it,then I found I can play all my old atari 2600 Im double in love.Is there alot of variety between the 5200 and 7800?I dont want to get a 5200 If most of athe games are also on the 7800.Also this may sound odd but is the 7800 graphics that much better then the 5200?Not comparing it to say Desert Falcon alot of it looks simmillar but im still new to atari in general.I found a 5200 no box with 4 games for $45 controllers are gaurnted to work.

 

 

Ask a question, and get a bigger debate then the them middle east peace talks...

 

WHat's next colecovision vs. the A5200

 

Opps...

[atariksi]

Collision detection gets mentioned when it's bad especially in comparison to another version on another platform. I can SEE collision detection is bad watching some videos of the game what to speak of playing them. Playability is a catagory that overlaps other catagories like graphics, audio, etc. It's not mutually exclusive from graphics.

 

Well, until I met you, I've never seen a review or a single person say,

 

"the graphics in this game are so beautiful! Look at that collision detection!"

...

I didn't say that either for a particular game in this thread, but if you ever played some Coleco stuff and Atari 5200 games, it's quite obvious as collisions seem to lag behind and recently when I saw some versions of DK of non-A8 platforms I noticed it.

 

Faulty logic again: newer machine does NOT equal better at everything.

 

where exactly did I say that? You're making assumptions!

 

The 2600 has a larger palette than the NES. But as a rule, which produces better graphics overall?

I'll quote you on it.

 

Obviously we have different definitions of graphics, which I've already said.

Yep, my definition conforms with reality.

 

so I guess you agree that Gyruss and Donkey Kong are better off graphically with smooth motion than a flickering screen at higher resolution.

 

Bad example for the 7800, which is what you were saying the 5200 has better graphics than.

 

Regarding your screen-shots, I would have to play the games to find out how good they are or at least see a video clip to get a better perspective.

 

I would have thought you'd do that first before arguing about how the 5200 has better graphics than the 7800 ... and perhaps come up with a report on how the 5200 would deliver a superior version that not only replicates the game 100% and improves upon it in a number of ways!

 

My point was NOT that A5200 graphics are ALWAYS superior to A7800; in that case I would first have to research every game on both. My point was that it depends on implementation which means I just have to cite a couple of examples where A5200 graphics are superior to prove my point. In fact, some of the code/demos I wrote for A8 can easily be ported to A5200 which show higher color content graphics than A7800 can ever show regardless of implementation in software.

[atariksi]

There are plenty of examples of the 7800 producing more colors @ higher resolution while moving around more objects and animating the background than I've seen on the 5200. And why shouldn't it? It's a newer machine.

Here's your quote from post #90. You're implying that because Atari 7800 is a newer machine, it automatically means it should end up with better graphical elements. I hope you know that C64 is also a newer machine than A8, but it doesn't even have graphics modes-- just extension of text modes used as graphics and much inferior palette to both A8 and A2600.

[GroovyBee]

In fact, some of the code/demos I wrote for A8 can easily be ported to A5200 which show higher color content graphics than A7800 can ever show regardless of implementation in software.

How about 169 colours on the 7800 at a higher resolution than the 5200's APAC mode? The 7800 can do its high colour mode at 126 x 80 (X x Y) in that implementation. It could be 160 pixels wide with more RAM or by using a different approach.

[4Ks]

People like you make me wish there were a - reputation point button on posts.

 

Feel free to write Albert and ask him to add one.

 

There's a good reason there isn't one. People would probably start using it to lower the reputation points of people they don't like.

[DracIsBack]

My point was NOT that A5200 graphics are ALWAYS superior to A7800; in that case I would first have to research every game on both. My point was that it depends on implementation which means I just have to cite a couple of examples where A5200 graphics are superior to prove my point.

 

OK - I agree with you: MARIA is not 100% better than GTIA in every possible way.

 

Just like PPU is not 100% better than TIA or GTIA in every possible way.

 

Heck, if you look at it closely enough, I'm sure the Sega Master System VDP isn't better in every possible way than the GTIA, nor is the Genesis' VDP. I'm sure that you can probably show 256 colors on a color screen at one time using GTIA (and MARIA for that matter) but maybe can't with the other two.

 

However, when it comes to overall capabilities to show colors at higher resolution, my money's on the 7800. My money is also on the 7800 if you want to show objects moving around the screen without flicker or slowdown.

 

In fact, some of the code/demos I wrote for A8 can easily be ported to A5200 which show higher color content graphics than A7800 can ever show regardless of implementation in software.

 

I didn't realize you were such an accomplished 7800 coder!

Edited July 12, 2010 by DracIsBack

[+Allan]

In fact, some of the code/demos I wrote for A8 can easily be ported to A5200 which show higher color content graphics than A7800 can ever show regardless of implementation in software.

I'm assuming this was a long long time ago when you actually did do something other than argue over what system/computer is better?

 

I bet you can't even remember enough to even convert the smallest of programs from the 8-bit to the 5200.

 

Allan

[atariksi]

In fact, some of the code/demos I wrote for A8 can easily be ported to A5200 which show higher color content graphics than A7800 can ever show regardless of implementation in software.

How about 169 colours on the 7800 at a higher resolution than the 5200's APAC mode? The 7800 can do its high colour mode at 126 x 80 (X x Y) in that implementation. It could be 160 pixels wide with more RAM or by using a different approach.

 

That's pretty good, but it's a different animal. I was talking about REAL colors not dithered ones or interlaced ones. Even C64 has pretty good dithered stuff even with its limited palette.

[atariksi]

My point was NOT that A5200 graphics are ALWAYS superior to A7800; in that case I would first have to research every game on both. My point was that it depends on implementation which means I just have to cite a couple of examples where A5200 graphics are superior to prove my point.

 

OK - I agree with you: MARIA is not 100% better than GTIA in every possible way.

 

Just like PPU is not 100% better than TIA or GTIA in every possible way.

 

Heck, if you look at it closely enough, I'm sure the Sega Master System VDP isn't better in every possible way than the GTIA, nor is the Genesis' VDP. I'm sure that you can probably show 256 colors on a color screen at one time using GTIA (and MARIA for that matter) but maybe can't with the other two.

...

Bad analogies-- just your mental speculation. Perhaps, you were drunk when you wrote the above or didn't read this thread entirely. But it's not lopsided as you make it sound or some isolated case where A5200 wins. Even if you don't count collision detection as part of graphics, Atari 5200 graphics have a lot of other stuff going for it-- overscan/underscan, gprior mode 0, GTIA translucency mode, redefined fonts using text mode, more variety of graphics modes, more RAM for the graphics, etc.

 

However, when it comes to overall capabilities to show colors at higher resolution, my money's on the 7800. My money is also on the 7800 if you want to show objects moving around the screen without flicker or slowdown.

...

No reason to bet money if you know your stuff. Having an edge in one aspect of graphics doesn't mean it has better graphics (period) and you can't even have a high resolution graphics mode without adding RAM chips. Just to let you think about an example of flicker/slowdown, painting a graphics 2 screen on A5200/A8 requires writing only 240 bytes.

 

In fact, some of the code/demos I wrote for A8 can easily be ported to A5200 which show higher color content graphics than A7800 can ever show regardless of implementation in software.

 

I didn't realize you were such an accomplished 7800 coder!

 

Since you are, you should easily be able to refute all of my points above (and we haven't even discussed sound).

[GroovyBee]

No reason to bet money if you know your stuff. Having an edge in one aspect of graphics doesn't mean it has better graphics (period) and you can't even have a high resolution graphics mode without adding RAM chips.

 

Not on the 7800. I've had games going both in 320A which is 1BPP with 8 colours on screen and 320B which is 2BPP and 7 colours on screen without adding any additional RAM at all.

 

Just to let you think about an example of flicker/slowdown, painting a graphics 2 screen on A5200/A8 requires writing only 240 bytes.

 

Whereas to fill a static screen of data in 160A (160x192) takes only 108 writes to set up the display list and a further 60 to set up the display list list.

[DracIsBack]

Bad analogies-- just your mental speculation.

 

LOL - you really are one of those guys who will argue whether or not shit is brown just for the sake of arguing.

 

Fine, you win! I give up. I bow to your great coding knowledge of both the 5200 and 7800! GTIA glorious in every way. MARIA is bad and has no capabilities whatsover. My eyes are also apparently blind for having thought that the best looking 7800 games have better graphics than anything I've seen in the 5200s library.

[Divya16]

Bad analogies-- just your mental speculation.

 

LOL - you really are one of those guys who will argue whether or not shit is brown just for the sake of arguing.

 

Fine, you win! I give up. I bow to your great coding knowledge of both the 5200 and 7800! GTIA glorious in every way. MARIA is bad and has no capabilities whatsover. My eyes are also apparently blind for having thought that the best looking 7800 games have better graphics than anything I've seen in the 5200s library.

 

You are bringing up the same point again that was already answered.

[DracIsBack]

You are bringing up the same point again that was already answered.

 

Not really. Just conceding that it's pointless to continue arguing when we're never going to agree.

Edited July 13, 2010 by DracIsBack

[Divya16]

So I recently aquired a 7800 and fell in love with it,then I found I can play all my old atari 2600 Im double in love.Is there alot of variety between the 5200 and 7800?I dont want to get a 5200 If most of athe games are also on the 7800.Also this may sound odd but is the 7800 graphics that much better then the 5200?Not comparing it to say Desert Falcon alot of it looks simmillar but im still new to atari in general.I found a 5200 no box with 4 games for $45 controllers are gaurnted to work.

 

 

Ask a question, and get a bigger debate then the them middle east peace talks...

 

WHat's next colecovision vs. the A5200

 

Opps...

 

Next should be if you would buy a classic A5200 if it was made into a hand-held despite all the "good-looking" games out there on modern hand-helds.

[jetset]

You are bringing up the same point again that was already answered.

 

Not really. Just conceding that it's pointless to continue arguing when we're never going to agree.

 

Even moreso considering it's another 5200 thread that was not intended to be a hater discussion yet got infested by them anyway. I wonder if this is why the Jag forum gets so intense...

Boo-hoo-hoo controllers, Boo-hoo-hoo the console is big, Boo-hoo-hoo Uh.....um....oh yeah the controllers...

[DracIsBack]

Even moreso considering it's another 5200 thread that was not intended to be a hater discussion yet got infested by them anyway.

 

LOL - I don't know how anyone could hate a console that has ADVENTURE II ... nuff said.

 

I wonder if this is why the Jag forum gets so intense...

 

- "It's 64-bit" vs. "no it's not".

 

- "All the games suck!" vs. "No they don't!".

 

- "The controller is like a hamburger" vs "it's built for adult hands"

[Divya16]

Even moreso considering it's another 5200 thread that was not intended to be a hater discussion yet got infested by them anyway.

 

LOL - I don't know how anyone could hate a console that has ADVENTURE II ... nuff said.

 

How about Donkey Kong, Gyruss, Qix, Blaster, Robotron 2084, Pac-man, Pengo, and many others. I tried Robotron on 7800 and it was much easier than Atari 5200-- same for pac-man. Oh, I forgot, Robotron doesn't look as good. I even prefer the Joust on Atari 5200.

[Divya16]

No reason to bet money if you know your stuff. Having an edge in one aspect of graphics doesn't mean it has better graphics (period) and you can't even have a high resolution graphics mode without adding RAM chips.

 

Not on the 7800. I've had games going both in 320A which is 1BPP with 8 colours on screen and 320B which is 2BPP and 7 colours on screen without adding any additional RAM at all.

 

Just to let you think about an example of flicker/slowdown, painting a graphics 2 screen on A5200/A8 requires writing only 240 bytes.

 

Whereas to fill a static screen of data in 160A (160x192) takes only 108 writes to set up the display list and a further 60 to set up the display list list.

 

Ahm, I think he meant redrawing the screen; like 20*12 chars is 240 writes. You can't fit a 320*192 graphics buffer in 4K even in monochrome what to speak of in color mode. It's one of those mathematical truths.

[GroovyBee]

You can't fit a 320*192 graphics buffer in 4K even in monochrome what to speak of in color mode. It's one of those mathematical truths.

 

Yes you can if the static screen data comes from ROM. That's how the 7800 works. The graphics that end up being displayed on screen can come from ROM or RAM it doesn't care. Its only the DLL and DLs that have to be in RAM due to MARIA access speed.

 

If you are talking about character mode its the same number of writes in 160A on the 7800 for the data (using indirect DL entries and char width=2). Obviously more writes are required to create the DLL and DLs for each zone but thats a one shot operation.

[DracIsBack]

How about Donkey Kong, Gyruss, Qix, Blaster, Robotron 2084, Pac-man, Pengo, and many others. I tried Robotron on 7800 and it was much easier than Atari 5200-- same for pac-man. Oh, I forgot, Robotron doesn't look as good. I even prefer the Joust on Atari 5200.

 

Good for you. Now how about we get back to why you like the 5200 as opposed to extending the 5200 vs 7800 battle which is long and tired now.

Edited July 13, 2010 by DracIsBack

[atariksi]

You can't fit a 320*192 graphics buffer in 4K even in monochrome what to speak of in color mode. It's one of those mathematical truths.

 

Yes you can if the static screen data comes from ROM. That's how the 7800 works. The graphics that end up being displayed on screen can come from ROM or RAM it doesn't care. Its only the DLL and DLs that have to be in RAM due to MARIA access speed.

 

If you are talking about character mode its the same number of writes in 160A on the 7800 for the data (using indirect DL entries and char width=2). Obviously more writes are required to create the DLL and DLs for each zone but thats a one shot operation.

 

So it's restricted. I don't see them being equivalent in doing text modes-- I'll have to look at my old notes.

[tep392]

I don't have a 5200 but am considering buying one for my Atari collection because:

 

- It's retro and would look cool in my enterainment unit.

- Brings back fond memories of my youth.

- I want Adventure II.

 

tep392

[zylon]

For what it's worth, I really liked about 10-15 percent of the 5200's library. The rest, I could either live without or hated. I reaquired one this year because the ones I liked were that good, IMO. I've also gone the A8 route for some of those games, but I still enjoy some on the 5200 better because of the analog controls.

[Hydro Thunder]

I don't believe many (or any?) of these are available for the 7800, and these are all decent enough reasons to make me want a 5200:

 

Space Dungeon, Berserk, Wizard of Wor, Gyruss, Galaxian, Gorf, Moon Patrol, Qix, Miner 2049er, and Mr. Do's Castle.

 

Second reason - the Trak-Ball. Not only is it a great controller, it simply looks cool.

 

Third reason - you get cool points if you have a 5200, I would say. It's a pretty tight knit community. Of course part of that is due to the downsides of the 5200...like...

 

Reasons not to get involved with the 5200:

The controllers breaking issue, lack of backward compatibility, things of this nature.

 

But that being said, one day I'll be a 5200 owner, and proud of it. Probably wind up shelling out for those gold-contact controllers just to give them a go on Space Dungeon...

[DracIsBack]

I don't believe many (or any?) of these are available for the 7800, and these are all decent enough reasons to make me want a 5200:

 

Space Dungeon, Berserk, Wizard of Wor, Gyruss, Galaxian, Gorf, Moon Patrol, Qix, Miner 2049er, and Mr. Do's Castle.

 

Not from original release. There was early (and I mean early) experiments with Moon Patrol, Gorl and (I think) Berzerk but definitely none were out originally.