The New 7800 Renaissance

[Lendorien]

With all the developments for the 7800 announced lately, it really seams like there is potential for the 7800 to experience a new renaissance.

 

I'm thinking that the 7800 really needs a couple of things to really experience the renaissance properly. Just thought it might be fun to talk about it as a community.

 

* Development tools to make programming for the 7800 more accessible.

 

One of the reasons there have been so many homebrew for the 2600 is Batari basic. It makes the system easier to approach and program for and provides an intro for new programmers that isn't so daunting. There have been a few games that have been made in batari, and others that came from programmers who started with it and moved on.

 

If something like that could be put together for the 7800 it might increase interest in developing for it. Learning pure assembly is daunting. Groovybee stated in another thread that he'd put together some tools for development in C that he used for his games that he might release eventually.

 

With the release of the expansion pack, this is even more important as more consistent releases will make the expansion more worth investing in and perhaps increase interest int he platform

 

* Games other than remakes or new ports.

 

The 7800 needs original fare. It didn't have a lot of games for it when it was on the market. It'd be nice to see some titles for it that are unique. This is one of the great weaknesses of the 7800. Pretty much everything on the platform had better ports elsewhere. Did the 7800 every have anything like a mascot? Maybe someone could create one with a great new game.

 

Ports would be still welcome though.

 

* Publicly for the new stuff coming

 

As a community, we need to drum up interest for the new stuff coming out. Cross posting other gaming forums, getting info about the expansion put on blogs, etc. While it may not attract many new 7800 owners, it may attract old ones who perhaps left the scene or don't know about the developments. I know that at the every least it might get a couple more pre-orders for Mr. Vendel.

 

 

So, any other thoughts?

Edited September 1, 2010 by Lendorien

[Lord Thag]

Good topic

 

One of the reasons there have been so many homebrew for the 2600 is Batari basic. It makes the system easier to approach and program for and provides an intro for new programmers that isn't so daunting. There have been a few games that have been made in batari, and others that came from programmers who started with it and moved on.

 

Very true, but being someone who has been around here awhile, there are also drawbacks. Prior to BB, there were fewer homebrews, but almost all of them were outstanding, due to the skill required to make them. Since BB (which I think is an amazing tool), you do get a lot of 'newbie' programmers releasing some ... shall we say less than polished games.

 

Still though, more games is always a good thing, and those 'newbie' types often end up becoming pretty darned talented. Just looks at the stuff GroovyBee is doing. He's come a long way since Wasp (which wasn't bad). I can't wait to see how the 'Not-Gauntlet' game turns out

 

The 7800 needs original fare.

 

I'm not sure I agree with the 'need' part. The reason I collect the 7800 is because it plays single screen arcade ports so damned well. And the arcade homebrews are simply amazing. I certainly will not turn my nose up to original stuff (I'm all for it - Failsafe is an A+ title), but do we NEED original games? Not so sure. Everyone is loving all of the arcade ports, and there are thousands of un-ported, excellent games. I'll buy Frenzy or Sinistar (someone please port that one m'kay?) in a heartbeat. I'm fine either way. I think the reason the 7800 failed originally is the same reason it's reviving now: it does great arcade games. Maybe not as prettily as other consoles, but speed and gameplay wise, it's the clear winner much of the time. It has crazy sprite handling capabilities, and no flicker.

 

Publicly for the new stuff coming

 

Sure, publicity is always good. I think the quality of the games speak for themselves. This whole revival is based almost solely on the top notch quality of Pacmanplus' and GroovyBee's stellar games. Word of mouth I think is really helping spread the word.

 

If you like a game, brag about it. I'm a good example. I had a 7800 back in the day, but it was a distant second to the NES. Never was too much interested in collecting it either, until the homebrews and protos started getting released. Sirius, Plutos, Space Duel, Jr Pac... they really grabbed my attention, and I started collecting (and getting all of the awesome stuff I never played). It's my second favorite console now. I love it.

 

It's cool to see the Renaissance happening. Now that I actually have most of the library (missing 3) I can say that if ever there was a console that deserved better support, it's the 7800.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Lord Thag

[nathanallan]

It's amazing that this Idea is so widespread. I totally agree. Stay tuned on Curt's 7800XM.

[+Gemintronic]

do get a lot of 'newbie' programmers releasing some ... shall we say less than polished games.

 

I don't understand the attitude where homebrew and hobbyist snubb beginner efforts. Should all homebrew efforts be Square/Enix quality at first? I would have never learned how to ride a bike if everyone openly derided my newly learned biking style. This is a dead platform. Be thankful new blood is getting enfused. Yes, you did admit GroovyBee got better. Maybe laugh inside at BatariBASIC users efforts but encourage first. Openly displaying attitude means that the next GroovyBee may look elsewhere.

Edited September 2, 2010 by theloon

[Lord Thag]

Umm wait, what? Not sure where you're coming from with this attitude thing, but lets not derail a perfectly good thread with name calling, ok? I can assure you, I do not 'laugh at bAtari basic' programmers. Far from it. I encourage them. In fact, several excellent games have been released at the Portland Retrogaming Expo (of which I am one of the organizers), and bAtari himself has had a booth at our show for several years. He's a hell of a smart, nice guy too btw. As I said, Batari Basic it's an excellent tool, So please do not start labeling me with opinions I do not have, nor did I express. I also did not say that GroovyBee started out bad. He did not, but you can see his skill level increasing. Same with PacmanPlus. Same with ANYONE learning a skill.

 

Like it or not, it is true that the easier you make something, the more people try it, and yeah, you're gonna get some newbie efforts in the mix. I was merely expressing the flip side of the coin. The original post was about the need for accessibility tools to grow homebrew support, and while that is true, it also has a down side, which I expressed as part of this discussion. Look at the Wii. Poor software quality does affect perception of a System's library.

 

And the reason people can get annoyed (speaking of homebrew fans here) is that you spend your hard earned money on a game and it turns out to really stink. For example, a lot of people fought for a place in line to buy the Last Ninja at the previous CGE. The game can be beaten in about 45 seconds. That's it. No variety. No game variations. It's the same every time. A LOT of people were pretty peeved about that. There were several threads about it. It should not have been released in that state, as it's basically unfinished.

 

The point I was trying to make was this: good games can start a 'renaissance' like we have with the 7800, but lots of average or bad games can do just the opposite. Programmers SHOULD be encouraged, but everything they do should not necessarily be released. I've written a VCS game a couple of years back which I did not release because, quite frankly, it stinks. But the experience will allow me to write a good one when I get the time.

 

As far as quality, no, all games need not be of 'Square Enix Quality' (which isn't very high in my opinion ), but neither should they be of Froggo or Mythicon quality either. The programming forums here, and the BB one in particular now kind of help keep the quality control high, with lots of help and constructive criticism.

 

And that's the key. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Good, friendly, honest and helpful feedback is what helps 'newbies' make great games. Many of the best homebrews are collaborative efforts. Read the manuals. Lots of 'thank yous' to people for writing music, title screens, helping with cycle counts and sprites etc. There's a reason we have beta testing.

 

So in short, I agree with you that NEGATIVE criticism is a bad thing. Constructive criticism, on the other hand, is a required part of learning to program. The key is keeping it friendly and constructive.

 

It's the trolls that piss new programmers off. Kindly do not lump me among them.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Lord Thag

[Lendorien]

Very true, but being someone who has been around here awhile, there are also drawbacks. Prior to BB, there were fewer homebrews, but almost all of them were outstanding, due to the skill required to make them. Since BB (which I think is an amazing tool), you do get a lot of 'newbie' programmers releasing some ... shall we say less than polished games.

 

Still though, more games is always a good thing, and those 'newbie' types often end up becoming pretty darned talented. Just looks at the stuff GroovyBee is doing. He's come a long way since Wasp (which wasn't bad). I can't wait to see how the 'Not-Gauntlet' game turns out

 

Well, it sounds like Groovybee's stuff is not like Batari at all. But the truth is, Batari is sort of a gateway for some programmers. It allows people to get into it without being completely intimidated by ASM. I would be programming for the 7800 now it ASM wasn't completely intimidating (that and the fact that I have zero programing experiance at all)

 

So sure, some stuff sucks. And yeah, some stuff should never be released, but hey you could say that about half the original 2600 titles from the 80's.

 

I'm not sure I agree with the 'need' part. The reason I collect the 7800 is because it plays single screen arcade ports so damned well. And the arcade homebrews are simply amazing. I certainly will not turn my nose up to original stuff (I'm all for it - Failsafe is an A+ title), but do we NEED original games? Not so sure. Everyone is loving all of the arcade ports, and there are thousands of un-ported, excellent games. I'll buy Frenzy or Sinistar (someone please port that one m'kay?) in a heartbeat. I'm fine either way. I think the reason the 7800 failed originally is the same reason it's reviving now: it does great arcade games. Maybe not as prettily as other consoles, but speed and gameplay wise, it's the clear winner much of the time. It has crazy sprite handling capabilities, and no flicker.

 

You may be right on this, but all the really great arcade games have been done on other platforms like the NES. Plus there's the copyright issues to contend with.

 

It would be cool to see if anyone can do something really neat with the platform, like that Gauntlet style game that's in the works.

 

Sure, publicity is always good. I think the quality of the games speak for themselves. This whole revival is based almost solely on the top notch quality of Pacmanplus' and GroovyBee's stellar games. Word of mouth I think is really helping spread the word.

 

If you like a game, brag about it. I'm a good example. I had a 7800 back in the day, but it was a distant second to the NES. Never was too much interested in collecting it either, until the homebrews and protos started getting released. Sirius, Plutos, Space Duel, Jr Pac... they really grabbed my attention, and I started collecting (and getting all of the awesome stuff I never played). It's my second favorite console now. I love it.

 

It's cool to see the Renaissance happening. Now that I actually have most of the library (missing 3) I can say that if ever there was a console that deserved better support, it's the 7800.

 

In this case, bragging about it off Atariage is what we need to do, especially when the XM get to the preorder stage. And hopefully we'll have a tech demo video to help show off what it can do.

[+Gemintronic]

@Lord Tharg: Blanket statements about Batari BASIC newbie releases sounded like a Troll. But, you explained yourself and actually you seem to support just the opposite. I hope I get to enjoy your constructive criticism in the future Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

Back on track someone started a Coleco BASIC project and had to halt. Could he be found and convinced to switch to 7800? What about the 5200BAS guy?

Edited September 2, 2010 by theloon

[Underball]

* Publicly for the new stuff coming

 

As a community, we need to drum up interest for the new stuff coming out. Cross posting other gaming forums, getting info about the expansion put on blogs, etc. While it may not attract many new 7800 owners, it may attract old ones who perhaps left the scene or don't know about the developments. I know that at the every least it might get a couple more pre-orders for Mr. Vendel.

 

 

So, any other thoughts?

I'm going to assume this is a typo, and you meant to say "Publicity for the new stuff coming", and I couldn't agree more.

 

Problem with that being, outside of the 7800XM that currently has no officially announced software to support it, there's nothing to promote, yet. Now if you want to go back and push some of the fantastic recent homebrew work of the last couple of years like Failsafe, or Jr. Pac-Man - sure. But there's nothing new coming that's been officially announced yet. A Few things have been hinted about, but nothing is set in stone.

 

Granted, these are after all, homebrew developers, and it may take months, even years before they have the time to properly finish their work. That's completely understandable. But that doesn't change the fact that you can't drum up publicity for something that doesn't exist, and hasn't even been talked abotu or announced.

[GroovyBee]

Problem with that being, outside of the 7800XM that currently has no officially announced software to support it, there's nothing to promote, yet.

 

You mean like my XM title Dungeon! that was announced a month ago?

[+Gemintronic]

Seems like publicity is a chicken/egg scenario.

 

As an extension to the ideas in my previous post, why don't we start a code bounty for better 7800 development tools? Specifically ramping up to a full BatariBASIC/VisualbB suite?

[Underball]

Problem with that being, outside of the 7800XM that currently has no officially announced software to support it, there's nothing to promote, yet.

 

You mean like my XM title Dungeon! that was announced a month ago?

Will it be available for the launch of the 7800XM itself?

[GroovyBee]

As an extension to the ideas in my previous post, why don't we start a code bounty for better 7800 development tools? Specifically ramping up to a full BatariBASIC/VisualbB suite?

 

I already have quite a few tools that I use in my 7800 development. I have tools for graphics conversion, A78 header manipulation and the like. I just haven't had the time to put them all together, clean them up, improve the error handling and document them. Plus there is the CC65 "C" compiler, games creation library and start-up code to throw into the mix.

[GroovyBee]

Will it be available for the launch of the 7800XM itself?

 

I hope so.

[Underball]

Will it be available for the launch of the 7800XM itself?

 

I hope so.

cool. Just going by some of your earlier comments, and all of the other things you're working on, I wasn't sure if that was going to be the case.

 

It really would be a shame for Curt to finish the 7800XM, yet not have any viable software support for it available at launch time.

[Lendorien]

I already have quite a few tools that I use in my 7800 development. I have tools for graphics conversion, A78 header manipulation and the like. I just haven't had the time to put them all together, clean them up, improve the error handling and document them. Plus there is the CC65 "C" compiler, games creation library and start-up code to throw into the mix.

 

Hey Groovy, I can only encourage you to try and do so when you have time. There has been an amazing amount of activity for the 7800 of late, which is awesome, but most of it is from really well established programmers. Perhaps with your tools the door might be opened a little for less established folks to get in without being completely intimidated. Anything that makes it easier and more accessible would be welcome I think.

 

Of course, I know you're busy at the moment with other projects. Still, when you have time, I think the community would be vastly helped by it.

 

I'm going to assume this is a typo, and you meant to say "Publicity for the new stuff coming", and I couldn't agree more.

 

Problem with that being, outside of the 7800XM that currently has no officially announced software to support it, there's nothing to promote, yet. Now if you want to go back and push some of the fantastic recent homebrew work of the last couple of years like Failsafe, or Jr. Pac-Man - sure. But there's nothing new coming that's been officially announced yet. A Few things have been hinted about, but nothing is set in stone.

 

Granted, these are after all, homebrew developers, and it may take months, even years before they have the time to properly finish their work. That's completely understandable. But that doesn't change the fact that you can't drum up publicity for something that doesn't exist, and hasn't even been talked about or announced.

 

Typo, yes. Oops.

 

As Groovybee stated, he has announced his Dungeon title. There's also the possibility that the Pokey enhanced Pac-Man collection will be XM compatible. There's also the Super-circus game which may or may not need the XM module. I seem to recall talk of some other projects that were under wraps.

 

Donkey Kong is another one that might be pokey enhanced, (people apparently REALLY want it, plus the 4th screed) but we'll see.

 

This is a reason I really do encourage our established programmers to release what tools they have to the community when they are able so that the platform is more accessible to less knowledgeable programmers.

[GroovyBee]

Hey Groovy, I can only encourage you to try and do so when you have time. There has been an amazing amount of activity for the 7800 of late, which is awesome, but most of it is from really well established programmers. Perhaps with your tools the door might be opened a little for less established folks to get in without being completely intimidated. Anything that makes it easier and more accessible would be welcome I think.

 

I could release them today but its an awful lot of stuff for people to get to grips with to make games. The initial technical support, without any documentation to refer to, would take a great deal of my free time (which, unfortunately I don't have to give at the moment ).

 

Of course, I know you're busy at the moment with other projects. Still, when you have time, I think the community would be vastly helped by it.

 

Keep a look out for an announcement or two .

[HammR25]

I'd hope this would end up as an XM game as well.

[+SpiceWare]

I've a 7800 on the way and am thinking about Medieval Mayhem 7800.

[Lendorien]

It has occurred to me that with the XM coming out, perhaps we will see (or convince them to) the authors of some of the older 7800 homebrew revisiting their games to add pokey music and sound. Also, I could see some hacks of original 7800 games comign out to fix sound issue. Donkey Kong has been mentioned in this regard.

 

I've a 7800 on the way and am thinking about Medieval Mayhem 7800.

 

Oh man. That would be amazing. I mean, MM for the 2600 is completely awesome. It's probably my favorite homebrew of all time. If it was on the 7800, I'd almost certainly buy it.

 

I'm not going to have any money left by the end of this 7800 revival thing.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Lendorien

[GroovyBee]

I've a 7800 on the way and am thinking about Medieval Mayhem 7800.

 

I think that you'll need to investigate the feasibility of reading four paddles on the 7800 as a first step. I suspect you'll need to read player 1 and 2 on even frames and players 3 and 4 on the odd frames or something like that.

 

After seeing PMP struggle with paddles in his Circus game they are on my list of things to investigate but I'm short of time at the moment.

[HammR25]

After seeing PMP struggle with paddles in his Circus game they are on my list of things to investigate but I'm short of time at the moment.

Call in sick from work.

[+SpiceWare]

I think that you'll need to investigate the feasibility of reading four paddles on the 7800 as a first step. I suspect you'll need to read player 1 and 2 on even frames and players 3 and 4 on the odd frames or something like that.

not a problem, I read 2 paddles per frame on the 2600 version. Warlords reads 1 paddle per frame and used a "motion smoothing" routine. It looked really jerky when I disabled it. I didn't use motion smoothing in MM.

[GroovyBee]

not a problem, I read 2 paddles per frame on the 2600 version. Warlords reads 1 paddle per frame and used a "motion smoothing" routine. It looked really jerky when I disabled it. I didn't use motion smoothing in MM.

 

As soon as you start throwing sprites around on screen and having background graphics the paddle "timer" data can become very jittery on the 7800. With "simple" screens the problem doesn't seem to occur so in my mind it needs a thorough investigation.

[Lord Thag]

Blanket statements about Batari BASIC newbie releases sounded like a Troll. But, you explained yourself and actually you seem to support just the opposite. I hope I get to enjoy your constructive criticism in the future Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

I disagree that it sounded 'trollish' in the least, but no hard feelings man. Like you, I'm just jazzed about all the new games

 

I've a 7800 on the way and am thinking about Medieval Mayhem 7800.

 

Huh. That's the best thing I've read all week!

 

So much good stuff is in the works, I think it will (and is already) generating it's own hype. I mean, Curt's XM, Dungeon! (which is emphatically not Gauntlet ), Super Circus, and several other XM or vanilla games in the works. It's like everyone finally realized that the old 7800 really is a pretty awesome machine, and all at once.

 

Yeah, Renaissance indeed. Or maybe it's more like the resistance, you know? Facing insurmountable odds, legions of pooh-poohing NES fans, no dev tools, and twenty years of bad press, the 7800 strikes from the shadows guerilla-style to reclaim it's birthright. It's the Pancho Villa of the console world

 

Viva la resistance!

[nathanallan]

It's the Pancho Villa of the console world

 

Viva la resistance!

I had to give a rep point for that one; laughed out loud for real!