Controller building help for a 5200.

[anakedg]

Hey guys, I just got a 5200 a few weeks ago and I love it. Problem is that of the controllers I have one is completely shot and one is intermittent at best. I have previously posted in another thread and kinda started to junk it up so here I am starting my own for advice on constructing a controller.

 

Basically I have no experience of the sort making electronics. I can solder, but have limited experience and would probably have a problem working in small spaces. I have basically no electrical knowledge as far as some of the diagrams i see on here and stuff are hard to understand. I think that I could learn its just a bit overwhelming trying to find a place to start, and im not sure I quite grasp the analog to digital aspect.

 

My 5200 is a 4 port model if it would make a difference and here is what I would like to do. I want to build a controller that has an arcade joystick, 3 arcade buttons (for start pause and select), and a keypad. I was thinking of making this about the size of an arcade stick you would get for current generation fighting games, but perhaps a little wider. I was thinking I could acquire the joystick and buttons from some sort of arcade component supply store online, not sure about the encasement i would put it in or the keypad though. Upon looking for joysticks and to a lesser extent buttons there seems to be a variety of types and I have no idea what im looking for, im assuming an 8 way joystick, but am unsure. Also I have heard mention of 15 pin female connectors that stay into the 5200 being hard to find, can I use the cord connection from an existing, non-working controller for this?

 

Basically I'm looking for someone to give me some advice on what I need and where I can learn some basics about this sort of thing. Perhaps this is too ambitious but im sure, I will eventually be able to complete something like this. I also want the controller to basically be pretty "high quality" if that makes sense, so cost isnt really a barrier, I would much rather have what I envision than trying to make a controller less costly. I see that a lot of you like modify older controller to work with it but because i would like a controller that fits all within one enclosure and because of my price insensitivity, I probably would steer away from doing that.

 

Also a side note on the 5200 in general, does anyone have a technique to polish or remove scratches from the plastic? None are enough to really catch your fingernails or anything, just light surface scratching.

 

Any advice or input anyone has to offer will be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

[BigO]

This schematic will ultimately be helpful: http://www.atariage....sories_Low.html

 

The standard controllers use 500K ohm potentiometers. Typical PC analog joysticks use potentiometers with significantly less total resistance. There's a trick you can use to adapt a PC joystick for use with the 5200, but there are incompatibilities with a few games in my experience. http://www.atarihq.c...0faq/06_04.html

 

You'd be well served to measure the minimum and maximum resistance from a real 5200 controller to make sure your controller provides approximately the same range of resistance. However, from what I've seen, it will be a significant challenge to find an analog controller that has anywhere near the right potentiometers to allow building your controller without using the method employed by the above mentioned adapter. 100K ohm is the highest value I found in any off-the-shelf joysticks.

 

(An estimate of the range of values from the 5200 controller: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/117809-homebrew-controllers-modernish-5200-and-vectrex-digital/page__view__findpost__p__1431125)

 

For the keypad, a widely available 4 row by 3 column "matrix" type keypad will get the job done. Or, you can use individual pushbuttons. It would be wise to read up and understand how a matrix keypad is scanned and read. Troubleshooting can get interesting if you wire it incorrectly (says the voice of experience).

 

Technically, the Start, Pause, Stop buttons are scanned as if they are a 4th column of the keypad matrix. (In practice, there's one node of the 4x4 matrix that doesn't have a button).

 

Really, that's all you need to know.

 

 

 

If you have known good cables from 5200 controllers, that will save you a lot of hassle. It took me weeks of searching to find some old stock extension cables. The color coding of the wires would be sure to match documents which reference the original controllers.

 

Also, if you aren't really interested in being 100% compatible, there are a few methods that will let you use a digital joystick instead of an analog stick. Somebody here was making adapters for that. A commercial version once existed call the "Redemption Adapter". Searching on that should give you some information about using a digital stick.

Edited December 14, 2010 by BigO

[bohoki]

its not hard but its not easy

 

once you get the parts rounded up i'll try to make a tutorial

 

realize that the hardest part is going to be to find an enclosure that you like i made a box out of plastic held together by bits of wood a creative idea would be to use an old wood speaker its a fairly sturdy box and you just take off the fabric grill and put a plank on top for your control panel that way if you hate the layout you can just cut another and replace it easy it does still take a bit of woodworking skills

 

here is a prelim parts list off the top of my head

 

sorry if i leave anything out

 

 

2 500k potentiometers (i like using pots vs resistors so you can calibrate it and you can just use the x knob to play superbreakout and kaboom)

2 knobs (for above)

 

1 8 way joystick using microswitches (they are little rectangular thingies that work on the joys and arcade buttons)

(this stick will not allow you to play superbreakout,kaboom,gorf,missilecommand,starwars)

 

5 arcade buttons or 3 small buttons and 2 arcade buttons(for the fire buttons)

both above can be had on ebay as a mame kit or some such lot with buttons and joysticks

 

some crimp on connectors to connect your wires to the switches (i soldered to mine but that is annoying)

 

4 bolts and nuts to mount the stick or just wood screws from the bottom if you use a plank

 

drill and 1-1/8 inch holesaw (or whatever you decide to use to make a hole an angry beaver or phased plasma rifle in the 30 megawatt range)for the buttons and center of the joystick

 

1 15 pin female plug

1 9 pin male plug (for connecting an atari 2600 keypad)

 

good length of network cable the 8 conductor kind is nice and cheap i prefer the solid wire type for ease of soldering but the stranded stuff has less of a chance for breakage i also like the twisted pair type so i can break out a bunch of pairs for easy wiring of the directions and buttons

 

 

a calming tidbit

 

if you just look at the 5200 connector as 2 different zones it makes it easier

 

the top row is for the matrix keypad

 

the bottom row is the stick and buttons ignore pin 12 and then divide that bottom row in 2 and one side is the buttons the other the stick

 

once you wire the top row to the pins on the 9 pin plug that is no longer a a big concern (till you get to the start pause reset buttons)

 

ive done a few

 

i freq this place so i wont abandon you

 

send me pics of your parts and i'll explain how to get them together

 

 

but at the end of the day you will have an ugly monstrosity that will have cost you a pretty penny that you will be stuck with forever since no one will pay what it cost to build

 

ive come to the conclusion its just better to use a pc controller to 5200 adapter and find a decent pc stick or pad

(i dont mean to toot my own horn but i do sell a decently constructed affordable adapter)

Edited December 14, 2010 by bohoki

[BigO]

If "ugly monstrosity" scares you, you should know that while it is assuredly a likely outcome, it is not necessarily the only possibility. My current avatar is a picture of a working prototype 5200 controller that I built from scratch.

Edited December 14, 2010 by BigO

[bohoki]

well mine all came out ugly

 

the top left was made with a crane game stick and a star controller keypad 2 candy buttons and 3 tiny moms i put the dials so i could easily tell which was x and y but it now annoys me first off the crane game stick sucks no diagonals i was stupid for putting the action buttons right in the middle too far to reach easy if i had the touchpad in the middle and the buttons on the right it would have been better

 

the altoid controller started out as a wiring diagram but it works ok but i have button impressions on my thumb after 5 minutes and my thumb feels like i was pressing it on a meat tenderizer for like an hour

 

the big box is a wico microswitch stick using pots and the buttons are leaf switch style its problem is that it is huge

the lower one is a happ stick using 2 micorswitch type arcade buttons i have 3 buttons on the side for s,p,r and a little perf board of switches for the keypad(unseen in pic as its on the end of the cord)i was going for smallness but my box was not tall enough so i needed to add a spacer and now the top has sharp edges i thought i was clever putting the pots on the front so i could tilt the box down and use x for kaboom but there wasnt enough room in the box to spread out the pots and they are too close together for fun kaboom dialing

 

 

 

 

my final attempt at compactness its sturdy as the box is an old metal power supply button placement is not ideal but ok for some reason every time i look at it i think of weinershnitzel

 

but at the end of the day i just like using a gravis gamepad for digdug and kangaroo(i cant resist autofire monkey punching)

 

here is a keypad i was thinking of trying but i dont want to order it all the way from china

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 130395110380

 

and to find one local would cost like $20 but it would save the S,P,R buttons as they would be a b c

[BigO]

RE: keypad from China - I've been surprised at how fast and reliably some things have shipped to me from China (via DealExtreme). I'm pretty sure they can send stuff to me from China cheaper than I can send it across town.

 

Those are some robust looking implementations for sure.

 

There is some definite "user preference" value to being able to switch out the controller. My favorite quote of the day:

"i cant resist autofire monkey punching"

[anakedg]

Okay so to be clear the 8 way arcade sticks will be analog? Also I see some sticks with wiring harnesses. Is this potentially usable and an easy option or should I stay with one where the switches are individually wired.

 

About the pots, perhaps I will ask less questions if I know what the function of them is.

 

Big0: The part about the resistance was pretty much entirely lost on me. I suppose it doesn't translate to me perhaps because in the traditional controller there is only left right or up down control. I am unsure how arcade sticks work but my impression is that these would have an individual switch to be pressed for each one of 8 directions. I suppose I am asking for a bit more info perhaps on what testing for resistance does, as I dont even know what resistance refers to. Sorry if i am being a pest.

 

Bohoki: When you mention I need crimp on connectors do you mean something like this: http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/arcade-connectors/74-female-quick-connect-110-insulated-.html?

 

Thanks for all your help so far, I have been able to actually understand what some of the parts I am looking at buying actually are and have a way better understanding of some aspects. After these questions, I think ill probably be set until I get the parts all together.

[bohoki]

Okay so to be clear the 8 way arcade sticks will be analog? Also I see some sticks with wiring harnesses. Is this potentially usable and an easy option or should I stay with one where the switches are individually wired.

 

no the 8 way will act digital u,d,l,r and the diagonals

 

 

About the pots, perhaps I will ask less questions if I know what the function of them is.

 

 

potentiometers turn the direction switches of the u,d,l,r into resistance values the 5200 needs to read

 

 

Bohoki: When you mention I need crimp on connectors do you mean something like this: http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/arcade-connectors/74-female-quick-connect-110-insulated-.html?

 

yes you need to get the ones that fit the microswitches and you dont need insulated ones if uninsulated are cheaper

 

 

i'll draw you a physical wiring diagram and i'll do my best to make it easy to understand

 

if you are ordering parts buy 2 600k pots cause i often find that 500k pots are sometimes less resistance and the down trigger of popeye and gyruss want the full resistance you can even get by using the 1 meg ones out of 2600 paddles but they are often old and jittery and its annoying chasing a problem finding out it was that

 

let me fire up ms paint and i'll get back to ya

 

 

sorry it took so long i was watching conan obrian

 

Edited December 15, 2010 by bohoki

[BigO]

You're not being a pest, you just have a lot to learn if you want to understand what you're doing when you build these controllers. There's certainly nothing wrong with not knowing.

 

If you want to understand the underlying principles so you can determine how to build a controller yourself then there are people here who can and will help with that. This is my preferred approach, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.

 

If you want someone to give you step-by-step instructions on how to build a controller without needing to understand the theory or reasons, there is no shortage of people here who can do that.

 

 

 

An 8 way joystick is not analog, it is digital. The 5200 joystick is analog. It's possible to use circuitry to make a digital joystick compatible with the analog inputs of the 5200, but it's not as simple as just hooking up a couple of wires. You have to do something to simulate the resistance that the console expects to see. (Bohoki is talking about circuitry that will let a digital controller speak analog to the 5200)

 

Resistance means that something resists the flow of electrical current through it. When you turn a potentiometer, the resistance is changed and so the potentiometer resists the flow of current to a greater or lesser degree. The console can tell where the potentiomer(s) point by measuring the amount of current that is allowed to flow through the potentiometers. At a basic level, you can think of a potentiometer as a pointer and can think of the console as having a way to see where that pointer is pointing. The game software reacts to the position that the potentiometer is pointing.

 

Think of a light switch as digital: it's on or off. Think of a car's accelerator pedal as analog: it can be pushed all the way to the floor or not pushed down at all or can be pushed down to any position between "none" and "all".

 

The stock 5200 controller uses one potentiometer to read the vertical position of the joystick and another potentiometer to read the horizontal position of the joystick.

 

(I understand that trying to absorb all of this at once is a lot like trying to get a drink of water from a fire hydrant. )

 

 

 

 

 

 

[anakedg]

Okay I think I understand the pots a bit better now. Basically stated the l/r switches or u/d switches will replace the white knobs on top of the pots in the stock controllers to show which vertical or horizontal position. I had a hard time envisioning that but through your explanation and bohokis illustration I think that part is a lot more clear. I feel like I should make an effort to know at least something about it rather than basically asking for a step by step guide.

 

One other question since I seem to keep finding actual arcade cabinets. Where do you guys find the enclosures for your projects? I am trying to find something like bohoki has as far as the encasement that the joystick and buttons are in. Perhaps I just dont know what they are called or what they are made out of. I am assuming I can find something in maybe plastic or metal? I probably would prefer either material to wood but wouldn't rule out using wood i just wouldnt want to have to put up with damage that could probably be avoided if made of plastic or metal.

 

Edit: Also would it matter what type of microswitches i get? There seems to be several kinds measured in grams? or will any type be basically the same?

Edited December 15, 2010 by anakedg

[bohoki]

(I understand that trying to absorb all of this at once is a lot like trying to get a drink of water from a fire hydrant. )

 

 

funny you should mention that its kind of like how the 5200 works

 

 

say you are playing super breakout or kaboom the 5200 is a fire hydrant the controller is like a nozzle so when you press left the game sees full blast from the firehose and when you press right it goes down to a trickle and center it feels a medium blast with the analog stick it is like the nozzle goes any where from full blast to drip drip

 

when you use an 8 way it knocks it down to full blast medium(determined by the knob position) and drip drip

 

the knob position determines the center and also allows it full movement its ok to use the knob for those 2 games but say if you try to use it for missile command or star wars lets just say you better me a master of the etch a sketch

 

you can also use the knob for gorf but gorf also has a bit of verticle movement but i guess you dont really need to move vert

 

 

now with the buttons the game is sitting there happy then you press a button and it feels sad

because its grounded till you let it go

 

now the keypad area is kind of like those wacky japanese marchers

 

when you press a button it causes a couple of those jerks to crash into each other

Edited December 15, 2010 by bohoki

[anakedg]

Okay I think I found a suitable box searching for project boxes.

 

Do you think that if I just get 500k ohm pots that will be acceptable. I dont seem to be able to find any in 600k variety it seems to go from 500k to 750k. Perhaps 750k ohm would be a better option?

 

Also I think ive spend a number of hours last night/this morning figuring everything out. How you guys said there were the incompatible games, if i connect the pots externally with knobs i can use those to control the direction or the joystick at the same time as long as they are externally accessible with knobs?

 

Edit: Just thought of another question that seems like it should be answered before I order these parts. I noticed that most of the joysticks I am finding are laid out "landscape" in that they are wider that they are tall, if that makes sense. Is there any reason I couldn't orient them "portrait" style in the case to save horizontal space if i just make the up and down switches be what the left and right would normally be or is there a reason that this wouldnt work? Seems like it would be fine but wanted to see if there was something I could be unaware of.

Edited December 15, 2010 by anakedg

[bohoki]

Okay I think I found a suitable box searching for project boxes.

 

Do you think that if I just get 500k ohm pots that will be acceptable. I dont seem to be able to find any in 600k variety it seems to go from 500k to 750k. Perhaps 750k ohm would be a better option?

 

Also I think ive spend a number of hours last night/this morning figuring everything out. How you guys said there were the incompatible games, if i connect the pots externally with knobs i can use those to control the direction or the joystick at the same time as long as they are externally accessible with knobs?

 

Edit: Just thought of another question that seems like it should be answered before I order these parts. I noticed that most of the joysticks I am finding are laid out "landscape" in that they are wider that they are tall, if that makes sense. Is there any reason I couldn't orient them "portrait" style in the case to save horizontal space if i just make the up and down switches be what the left and right would normally be or is there a reason that this wouldnt work? Seems like it would be fine but wanted to see if there was something I could be unaware of.

 

 

yes 750k would be better

 

yes i explained the incompatable games and how you can play them with the knobs

 

yes arcade joysticks are rectangular but it does not matter how you install them as the directions all feel the same once mounted

 

just make sure you have the right and down buttons connected to the NC tab of the microswitch and the left and up to the NO tab

[anakedg]

Alright guys, thanks once again. I've got all the parts ordered, spare some extra wire from LAN cables, so time to wait.

 

I went with this case:

http://www.polycase.com/item/dc-96p.html

 

Im hoping the plastic will be easy to work with and sturdy at the same time. Also in the recessed cover I am going to try to make a overlay to "match" the atari 5200 hardware. we will see how that goes.

 

Thanks very much for the help and ill be sure to come back around and post the results or possibly ask more questions lol.

[Toraborakid]

Alright guys, thanks once again. I've got all the parts ordered, spare some extra wire from LAN cables, so time to wait.

 

I went with this case:

http://www.polycase.com/item/dc-96p.html

 

Im hoping the plastic will be easy to work with and sturdy at the same time. Also in the recessed cover I am going to try to make a overlay to "match" the atari 5200 hardware. we will see how that goes.

 

Thanks very much for the help and ill be sure to come back around and post the results or possibly ask more questions lol.

 

 

or u might see if this is a viable option for your problem.

 

http://robosavvy.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/1216?osCsid=8756bafa4271028b87a93bfe4b0f9662

[tz101]

Try the simple route and pay Bohoki for one of his adapters. For $10 you cannot go wrong. They are the best investment I have made in my 5200 to date. I just ordered a Master Play from another poster on these forums and cannot wait to get it. It allows you to use Sega Genesis and Master System controllers on 5200 if you already have a Wico "Y" cable. Most excellent!