Game Sound, the 7800, is it really a big deal?

[Underball]

whiney complaints

The rest of us are having an adult conversation about the importance(or lack thereof) of game sounds on classic systems.

 

Care to join us?

[TrekMD]

I can understand why for some people the sounds are a big issue. After all, with arcade quality-graphics on the 7800, you'd expect arcade-quality sounds as well. Unfortunately, that was not the case for many of the games. While I've been disappointed with sound quality in games like DK and Dig Dug, I never let that stop me from enjoying the games. Of course, now that there are improved versions of some of those games with the new sounds using the XM, it will be even more enjoyable to play those games! Their sounds will match their visuals!

[Atarifever]

Poor sound like what the 7800 puts out doesn't annoy me. Sure 7800 Donkey Kong is a little off from the arcade, but I'll take Mario's squeaky shoes over a modern "Gangsta'" GTA soundtrack any day. I also find that even on the 7800 these soundtracks are more suitable to the game than game music today. Case in point: Kameo. This 360 game is pretty good, but the story, character models, and game world do not at all match up with its "Lord of the Rings" soundtrack. It is a fairy princess turning into a yeti to punch a cartoon goblin. Why is there an orchestra? Give me Midnight Mutants and it's silly pleepy-plop horror music please.

 

The sins of bad music are much worse today when it is not technology but poor judgement that causes the problems.

[tep392]

with arcade quality-graphics on the 7800, you'd expect arcade-quality sounds as well. Unfortunately, that was not the case for many of the games.

 

That's the basic problem I have with the 7800. The disconnect between graphic quality and sound quality. If I had owned a 7800 back in the 80's, I would probably feel more nostalgic for those game ports, and maybe even enjoy how the sound was done. That's the case for the VCS which was my first console. I can play that all day long and never care about simple graphics and sound. I spent countless hours playing the original defender on that system, which many people here seem to hate. It was far from arcade perfect but still a lot of fun to play.

[Rex Dart]

Me and my brother used to play Turmoil with volume down while listening to Men at Work.

Yes it was the Who Can it Be Now slash Land Down Under album.

Not because the sound was bad but we just did it that way.

 

 

 

Now that's just Overkill

[Tubular Gearhead]

Poor sound like what the 7800 puts out doesn't annoy me. Sure 7800 Donkey Kong is a little off from the arcade, but I'll take Mario's squeaky shoes over a modern "Gangsta'" GTA soundtrack any day. I also find that even on the 7800 these soundtracks are more suitable to the game than game music today. Case in point: Kameo. This 360 game is pretty good, but the story, character models, and game world do not at all match up with its "Lord of the Rings" soundtrack. It is a fairy princess turning into a yeti to punch a cartoon goblin. Why is there an orchestra? Give me Midnight Mutants and it's silly pleepy-plop horror music please.

 

The sins of bad music are much worse today when it is not technology but poor judgement that causes the problems.

 

I agree with this. Some 7800 games have pretty good sounds considering the limitations- Midnight Mutants is a good example (and w/o Pokey to boot). There has to be a happy medium, some of the modern games have music that is way overdone and just isn't necessary or doesn't match the game.

[prostx23]

I've never had a problem with game sounds (old or new)unless they simply grated on me. Since despite my age, 38, I never really got to experience the arcade games that the 7800 reproduce in person (I rarely got out to arcades). I guess that has left my ears "open" to a perhaps what might be considered a subpar reproduction of an arcade games sounds. As the 7800 version of Donkey Kong has been brought up several times in this thread, I find the sounds in that game completely acceptable. Off the top of my head I can't think of a 7800 game that has sound that I don't like.

 

Mike

[Tubular Gearhead]

Has anyone else noticed that Atari Corp. seems to have recycled some of the 7800 music on some of the later games? Aren't some of the sounds/music in Fatal run the same as Midnight Mutants? Or am I thinking of Planet Smashers...

I'll have to check again tonight.

[ApolloBoy]

Has anyone else noticed that Atari Corp. seems to have recycled some of the 7800 music on some of the later games? Aren't some of the sounds/music in Fatal run the same as Midnight Mutants? Or am I thinking of Planet Smashers...

I'll have to check again tonight.

Both Fatal Run and Midnight Mutants had the same developer, Sculptured Software. Atari never actually developed their own games for the 7800, it was all farmed out to contract developers.

[4Ks]

TBH, I don't get the complaints either. From what I've played on Prosystem (the emulator), 7800s sound is perfectly fine. Well, except Robotron. Call me spoiled, but I don't think Robotron's futuristic sound effects translate well to 7800 at all.

[spiffyone]

Well, I think there are three things at work here:

 

1. 7800 had many ports of arcade games, and was marketed as a sort of "ultimate" arcade experience in the home led to some disappointment that the sound was not up to arcade quality as the graphics were.

 

2. not only was the sound chip a step down from the 5200 and Atari 8-bit computer line that used the Pokey chip, but the fact that developers could've added the chip to their carts and many chose not to created an uneven sound quality across the game library. Some games had much better sound than others, and those that had better, deeper sounds were those using the Pokey chip. So there's a sense of, I dunno...loss there. A pining for what could have been if only Pokey were included in the stock hardware.

 

3. Again, it was a step down for those that had experience on 5200 and Atari 8-bit computers, but the console also was competing against NES and SMS, two consoles with better sound chips.

 

Was it all bleeps and boops? Sure. But there's a difference in quality in those bleeps and boops. Tinny or static filled bleeps and bloops lacking bass of any sort don't sound all that great compared to bleeps and boops that are less tinny, non-static filled, and have some amount of bass to them.

 

Of course, there's working within limitations to produce pretty good sound that matches the game (Midnight Mutants, IMHO, is a good example of this) and just being limited. I couldn't image Commando on the 7800 being all TIA sound, for instance, as part of the "appeal" of the chiptunes it uses is that bassy sound produced by the Pokey chip adding to, I dunno...some sense of danger or "seriousness" to the proceedings that reflects the fact that you're basically in a war zone. But Midnight Mutants uses the tinny sound of the Tia, as well as the less clear sound separation to create it's sense of whimsical ominousness. However, most games using just the TIA suffer because they either had better sound in the arcades (or other consoles or computers) or the developers didn't seem to use the limitations as a basis for providing sound that 'fit" the game.

 

Not all "better" sound chips produce sound that is "better" if one considers the milieu created in the game. Case in point: I've always dug the tunes used in Alien Syndrome for SMS (a very underrated game, disliked by some in part because it's not an arcade port but an SMS specific version using the arcade original as a basis). In Japan, the SMS (Mark III over there for a time) had an FM chip that had better sound separation, but playing Alien Syndrome via the Kega emulator (which reproduces the FM sound hardware very well) revealed to me that Alien Syndrome's "haunting" soundtrack on my US SMS is in fact created by the lack of the FM chip in the US console. Playing the game with the FM chip emulation enabled, the sound is too clear, and it has the effect of lessening how "deep" or "low" the bass sounds. It has better sound quality if simply taken on the level of being able to readily hear the different nuances of sound, sure, but the worse separation caused by the stock chip in US consoles "crunched" the sound in such a way that the bass...I dunno..."growls". The less clear sound quality makes it "dirty"..."dank"...dangerous sounding. It fits the game better, IMHO.

[The Usotsuki]

Has anyone else noticed that Atari Corp. seems to have recycled some of the 7800 music on some of the later games? Aren't some of the sounds/music in Fatal run the same as Midnight Mutants? Or am I thinking of Planet Smashers...

I'll have to check again tonight.

Both Fatal Run and Midnight Mutants had the same developer, Sculptured Software. Atari never actually developed their own games for the 7800, it was all farmed out to contract developers.

Sculptured Software? The company that did the SNES ports of Mortal Kombat 1 and 2?

[ApolloBoy]

Has anyone else noticed that Atari Corp. seems to have recycled some of the 7800 music on some of the later games? Aren't some of the sounds/music in Fatal run the same as Midnight Mutants? Or am I thinking of Planet Smashers...

I'll have to check again tonight.

Both Fatal Run and Midnight Mutants had the same developer, Sculptured Software. Atari never actually developed their own games for the 7800, it was all farmed out to contract developers.

Sculptured Software? The company that did the SNES ports of Mortal Kombat 1 and 2?

Yep.

[+Mitch]

Has anyone else noticed that Atari Corp. seems to have recycled some of the 7800 music on some of the later games? Aren't some of the sounds/music in Fatal run the same as Midnight Mutants? Or am I thinking of Planet Smashers...

I'll have to check again tonight.

Both Fatal Run and Midnight Mutants had the same developer, Sculptured Software. Atari never actually developed their own games for the 7800, it was all farmed out to contract developers.

 

Fatal Run was done by Sculptured Software, Midnight Mutants was not.

 

Mitch

[ApolloBoy]

Fatal Run was done by Sculptured Software, Midnight Mutants was not.

Sculptured Software actually did develop Midnight Mutants, according to GDRI. That would also explain why Fatal Run and MM share some sound effects and a music track (the shop music in Fatal Run is reused in Midnight Mutants).

[CRV]

Both Fatal Run and Midnight Mutants had the same developer, Sculptured Software. Atari never actually developed their own games for the 7800, it was all farmed out to contract developers.

 

I think Jinks was done internally. The high score table is full of people who worked there.

 

Sculptured Software actually did develop Midnight Mutants, according to GDRI.

 

Peter Adams, the programmer, was one of the co-founders of Sculptured Software. According to this, he was the president of Radioactive Software. I don't know if he went off and started another company. Everyone else here appears to be from Sculptured Software. You'll see Radioactive and Sculptured mentioned on Eliminator Boat Duel for the NES.

Edited January 8, 2011 by CRV

[The_Laird]

I think Jinks was done internally. The high score table is full of people who worked there.

 

No Jinks was done a English company called Graftgold who were also doing the 7800 conversion of Gauntlet (they did the 8-bit home computer versions too) hence why there is a sample from Gauntlet on the title screen.

[CRV]

No Jinks was done a English company called Graftgold who were also doing the 7800 conversion of Gauntlet (they did the 8-bit home computer versions too) hence why there is a sample from Gauntlet on the title screen.

 

I guess that makes sense.

 

Other games the developers of which I don't know: Ace of Aces, Ballblazer, Crack'ed, MeltDown, RealSports Baseball, Super Huey, Tower Toppler.

[The_Laird]

No Jinks was done a English company called Graftgold who were also doing the 7800 conversion of Gauntlet (they did the 8-bit home computer versions too) hence why there is a sample from Gauntlet on the title screen.

 

I guess that makes sense.

 

Other games the developers of which I don't know: Ace of Aces, Ballblazer, Crack'ed, MeltDown, RealSports Baseball, Super Huey, Tower Toppler.

 

Ballblazer - Lucasarts

Tower Toppler - Graftgold

Super Huey - Cosmi Corp.

[DracIsBack]

<br>Other games the developers of which I don't know:

<br><br>Ace Of Aces - Imagineering<br>Crack'ed is a gent named Robert Neve<br>Super Huey was Cosmi originally but I think this one is also done by Imagineering<br><br>Not sure all Atari 7800 games were farmed out but most definitely were.<br><br>Peter Pachla programmed JINKS.<br> Edited January 8, 2011 by DracIsBack

[DracIsBack]

I think Jinks was done internally. The high score table is full of people who worked there.

 

No Jinks was done a English company called Graftgold who were also doing the 7800 conversion of Gauntlet (they did the 8-bit home computer versions too) hence why there is a sample from Gauntlet on the title screen.

 

How do you know such much about Gauntlet on the 7800? :-)

[The_Laird]

Because it was previewed in ACE magazine over here and I for many years I had the magazine it was in but sadly I have no idea where that magazine is now as I have moved around alot

[akator]

Back to the topic, I think my reactions to the 7800's sometimes poor audio are because of context. The 7800 didn't exist in a vacuum, either then or now (or it would have made no sound at all ). The audio can be disappointing because we had and still have other things to compare it with. Even before 1983, most home computers and consoles had generally moved beyond 2600-quality audio. These are consumer products, and I propose that it would be unnatural not to compare them to each other.

 

Even with the crappy audio in some 7800 games, I enjoy the console. But I'm not going to lie to myself about it, denying that I mute the audio when playing 7800 Donkey Kong, or wishing 7800 Donkey Kong sounded as good as the ColecoVision Donkey Kong, or NES Donkey Kong, or A8 Donkey Kong, or TI/99 Donkey Kong, or Vic-20 Donkey Kong, or C-64 Donkey Kong, or...

[Jinks]

Yeah its a big deal. Thats why the xm was made and todays systems are not bleep bloop. Millions of gamers agree or the ps3 would have a 2600 sound chip.

[toptenmaterial]

Kind of an aside from the sound update thread, this topic has been itching at me, so I have to ask:

 

Is sound on these old systems really a big deal at all? I don't get all the fuss. People saying things like "The sound of that port is bad, it totally throws the feel of that game off, I can't play it!"

 

I'm sorry, but this just sounds plain damn crazy to me. It's crappy 8-bit bloop-bleep sound effects. They're ancient video games. Unless there's a specific sound missing from a game that is supposed to alert you to something - who gives a flying fart? Sure, the newer systems with CD and DVD/Blu-Ray have made huge advances, but that's to be expected.

 

But pretty much every system in the golden era - 2600/5200/7800/NES/SMS/coleco etc. sound like unintelligible beep boop crap anyway.

 

and NONE of it affects gameplay at all. Donkey Kong doesn't suddenly become more difficult because the music has an F# in the wrong place because of TIA limitations.

 

You guys, I dunno. I'll take the updated versions and play them, sure. always fun to hack around with stuff, love it all. But all the whiney complaints. Do you guys even really like these games, or do you hate them?

 

Some days around here, I just can't tell.

Well let's take a look at donkey kong junior for the 7800 and NES. the graphics and control are identical. but the sound for the 7800 really is unpleasant. don't get me wrong, I love the 7800. the NES had a limited sound range but it was pleasing to the ear, where as the 7800 wasn't very melodic, that's just my personal opinion.