Game Sound, the 7800, is it really a big deal?

[kool kitty89]

POKEY should've been on the board itself, not an add on to the cartridges.

 

Should have, yeah. At the time, though, they were starting to get into cost cutting and the 7800's motherboard was getting full with both 2600 and 7800 hardware. With the recycled case (2800) and the motherboard getting cramped, the thing was getting expensive and space was becoming a premium.

 

Still, POKEY does have nice sound and POKEY and TIA working together to generate sound is a neat idea. The only official 7800 game that did that was Commando, where the music was POKEY and the sound effects were TIA. 6 different sound channels in use.

It's more than that though it was also a sheer shortage of time: at one point they considered adding sound to MARIA, but they soon realized they they didn't have nearly enough time to do that for the planned mid '84 release. The rushed nature probably also limited considerations on other compromises on board space and short term vs long term cost: removing the RF modulator would have been an immediate savings to board space (making the RF box external could also have facilitated an auto-switch, or an optional one, and obviously AV cables -could use the A8 monitor connector/pinout for common production). Then there's the fact that there were cheaper/smaller off the shelf options like the tiny 16-pin narrow DIP SN76489 (TI99/4, Colecovision, SG-1000/SC-3000, Sord M5, Master System, various arcade games, etc) or the 24-pin wide DIP AY-3-8913.

Or, of course, GCC could have requested the schematics for POKEY to aid in a cost/size-reduced sound-only hack of POKEY using a smaller die and smaller package. (or a simpler hack for a 24-pin interim model with full-sized die before cutting it down more -if they made use of 4 of the POT lines, that would limit the minimum pin count, but allow hardware paddle polling)

And there were other long-term savings like using an 8k SRAM chip (single 28-pin DIP) vs the dual 2k chips they used instead. (the cost advantages of further consolidation, lower prices of 8k chips, and fewer games needing on-cart RAM -or better areas games in general- would have paid off by far in the long run) Using DRAM could have paid off even more, but that would have been time constrained -need for interfacing the DRAM- as well as using more board space or taking more time to design an integrated IC to manage DRAM -or integrating that logic with MARIA. (it definitely could have paid off in the long run though, and practically allowed at least 16 kB from the start -2 tiny 16-pin narrow DIP 8kB DRAMs vs 2 24-pin wide DIP 2kB SRAMs; or if they could have used a small custom DRAM interface IC or integrated it in MARIA, that would have meant immediate cost savings, less board space, and more RAM -but added R&D time and cost)

 

But the RF modulator thing should have been straightforward and simple, and short of that, POKEY (or another sound chip) could have been slapped onto a riser board.

That would have been costly though, especially as early models already used 1 riser board over the RF modulator. (cutting out the modulator and switching to an 8k SRAM probably would have been simpler and cheaper solutions than a larger riser board, even in the short term, and shouldn't have compromised release date either.

Given Atari's huge stock of POKEYs and continued production, using a custom derivative off the bat wasn't necessary from a cost standpoint, but a cut-down version later on definitely would have been a goo idea. (cutting out the SIO amd keyboard logic as well as 1/2 or all of the POT lines depending if they were wired to displace TIA's POT inputs in 7800 or not, even with 4 POT lines they could have gotten it down to 24 pins easily and probably a narrow DIP with the smaller die void of unnecessary I/O logic and on a newer process)

 

And again, off the shelf chips (SN76489 should have been the cheapest, and definitely the smallest -AY8913 is a better chip though) should have been very real options as well.

 

They could even had made the sacrifice to go with a single 2kx8-bit SRAM chip (should still be 24 pins), but that would have been a bad move in the long run with the limitations it would impose compared to 4k, let alone 8k. (though you could argue 2k SRAM and onboard POKEY could still have been better in many cases -8k would have been much better forward thinking though)

 

And, obviously, they were aiming at the mid 1984 release, and Atari Corp couldn't make changes after the fact since production had started and pre-release systems were out already. (technically they could have added a low-cost add-on including RAM+POKEY -sort of like a simple 7800 XM, but that didn't happen and Atari Corp couldn't even be sure of getting the 7800 until early 1985, and after that it was more about gearing up for production than any redesigns -albeit, an add-on module could still have been done after the fact and could have been a better cost/performance option than POKEY on-cart or 8/16 -maybe 32k?- SRAM in some games, let alone embedding a battery backup feature as well -1988 might have been the best time for something like that given Atari Corp's stronger financial position, the 7800's popularity at that point -going by Curt's ACorp docs, and the mounting competition in general and would also have made a much better tie-in to the low-cost angle than tacking things onto carts -except '88 also had the DRAM shortage and jump in price -also impacting ROM/SRAM production to some extent, but a single 32k DRAM would still have been pretty cheap at the time -so a ~20/24 PIN narrow DIP DRAM, 1 POKEY -or reduced pin count POKEY, and 1 interface chip with DRAM control/refresh and any additional gates needed to attach to POKEY; plus maybe a single 2kx8-bit SRAM chip and battery for save data)

Edited January 30, 2011 by kool kitty89

[GroovyBee]

Unfortunately its not as easy as saying add this or add that. Whatever you add into the system's memory map needs full/partial address decoding so that it can be accessed by Sally. Usually that was done at Atari with either standard LS logic chips or a custom ASIC. In either case you need additional PCB space to handle the address decoding as well as the sound/RAM/whatever memory mapped device (plus the space to route the signals given the number of PCB layers you have to work with). With a new ASIC you also need to cover the upfront design and manufacturing costs.

[kool kitty89]

Unfortunately its not as easy as saying add this or add that. Whatever you add into the system's memory map needs full/partial address decoding so that it can be accessed by Sally. Usually that was done at Atari with either standard LS logic chips or a custom ASIC. In either case you need additional PCB space to handle the address decoding as well as the sound/RAM/whatever memory mapped device (plus the space to route the signals given the number of PCB layers you have to work with). With a new ASIC you also need to cover the upfront design and manufacturing costs.

Yes, the added R&D costs I mentioned (good in the long run, but not something you can necessarily afford in the short run). If nothing else, removing the RF modulator should have freed up valuable board space. (at least enough to practically add an SN76489 and any necessary interface logic)

 

And 8k SRAM would have need further modification for the address decoding, but probably would have still saved significant board space in either case. (and also saved on the number of traces by a significant margin: 13 address lines vs 24 for the 2 4kx4-bit SRAM chips -or at least more traces running from the chips themselves before they're rerouted/paired as 12 address lines and 8 data lines) For that matter, they probably could have piggybacked the 2 4kB chips along with a few jumpers to save space, but that might have complicated manufacturing and made reliability more problematic. (some machines did ship from the factory with piggybacked RAM though, like early IBM PC DRAM boards)

 

DRAM definitely would have taken significantly more logic (discrete or ASIC) for the refresh, address demultiplexing, and decoding, so that would have been a problatic option for Atari Inc/Warner with their tightened budget and short timetable for the 7800's release.

 

 

 

Using just 2k would have certainly used less board space than 8k or 4k SRAM and been cheaper, but the performance trade-offs may have been too great for that to be worth it.

[GroovyBee]

And 8k SRAM would have need further modification for the address decoding, but probably would have still saved significant board space in either case.

 

Its MARIA that does the address decoding for the RAM.

 

(and also saved on the number of traces by a significant margin: 13 address lines vs 24 for the 2 4kx4-bit SRAM chips -or at least more traces running from the chips themselves before they're rerouted/paired as 12 address lines and 8 data lines)

 

The 7800 has two 6116s which are 2K x 8 and not 4K x 4. Have a look at the underside of the 7800 motherboard to check out the PCB routing .

 

For that matter, they probably could have piggybacked the 2 4kB chips along with a few jumpers to save space, but that might have complicated manufacturing and made reliability more problematic.

 

That would be hand soldered which would be a big "no, no" for a high volume product.

[kool kitty89]

(and also saved on the number of traces by a significant margin: 13 address lines vs 24 for the 2 4kx4-bit SRAM chips -or at least more traces running from the chips themselves before they're rerouted/paired as 12 address lines and 8 data lines)

The 7800 has two 6116s which are 2K x 8 and not 4K x 4. Have a look at the underside of the 7800 motherboard to check out the PCB routing .

Wouldn't that mean even MORE traces? (2 sets of 8 bit data lines rather than 2 of 4, on top of the 11 -rather than 12- address lines on each) Of course, mot of those could/should have gotten paired/routed together fairly close to the ICs to minimize impact on board space, but I'd think there would be at least some negative impact. (albeit probably not much more than the sheer footprint of the added RAM chips)

 

The fact that they're 8-bit SRAMs would partially explain the 24-pin package, but I's just assumed that the die was too big to fit into a narrow DIP (since anything less than 24 pins is narrow). Given the fact that it's no a 24 pin narrow DIP, that seems to be the case in either case. (or they used wide DIPs for some other reason)

 

 

Hmm, if MARIA already does do all of the address decoding, how is the on-cart SRAM managed? (and how would that be any more complex than switching from 4 to 8k internally -if it ate into ROM space, that would simply mean you'd need to bank switch to go beyond 44 kB rater than 48)

[GroovyBee]

Hmm, if MARIA already does do all of the address decoding, how is the on-cart SRAM managed?

 

With on cart address decoding.

[DracIsBack]

I was playing TOWER TOPPLER and MIDNIGHT MUTANTS the other day. To me, TOWER TOPPLER makes awful use of TIA because the volume is high and the pitch is high. At times, it gets obnoxious and shrieky, IMO.

 

On the other hand, I don't mind MIDNIGHT MUTANTS music. I don't find it obnoxious and shrieky because the music stays lower pitched throughout. And the volume obnoxious.

 

 

 

 

[+darryl1970]

Best use of 7800 Sound!!! I award Jinks! LMAO..

 

Sorry... I had to share some sarcasm that was bubbling over. What is that sample from the arcade Gauntlet game and, "You can't catch me!" all about?

How does that enhance the game?

 

Did anybody notice that hitting the ball results in the same sound used when 2600 Pac-Man eats a "wafer"...

I believe the sound effect when the ball enters may be from 2600 Defender..

 

Sound matters.. lol..

[toptenmaterial]

the NES recycled sounds for sure. gannon's laugh in the death screen of Zelda 2 and Bald Bull's laugh in Punchout were the same.

[+darryl1970]

the NES recycled sounds for sure. gannon's laugh in the death screen of Zelda 2 and Bald Bull's laugh in Punchout were the same.

 

Interesting. At least they weren't from one of the biggest flops (2600 Pac-Man), and they weren't thrown in (out of place) for a lame horizontal-scrolling Breakout game.. lol

[gdement]

The TIA is simple enough that sound effects are never going to be completely unique. Any sound effect you hear on a game, you could probably find 10 more examples of it elsewhere.

 

Is the 7800's sound a big deal? Yes, certainly. Before getting a 7800, I had used a friend's NES and the total lack of decent sound on my 7800 really disappointed me. From what I've heard of POKEY I'm sure I would have been happy with that.

I really like the Commando approach of POKEY music and TIA sound effects, that game is excellent. If every game had access to a POKEY+TIA combo, the 7800 would have been much more awesome.

Sound is a major weakness of the system, otherwise it's very competitive. The "slap chips in cartridges" idea is better than nothing but I can't believe Atari ever took it seriously. For the launch consoles, they should have put something on a riser board, or externalized the RF as somebody suggested. Then work on a board redesign.

Less importantly, I also think a single 8K SRAM would have been better in the long run. That would give every game more to work with and reduce the long term expenses on cartridge RAM, but I don't know what SRAM chip volume pricing was in the mid-80's.

[kool kitty89]

I was playing TOWER TOPPLER and MIDNIGHT MUTANTS the other day. To me, TOWER TOPPLER makes awful use of TIA because the volume is high and the pitch is high. At times, it gets obnoxious and shrieky, IMO.

 

On the other hand, I don't mind MIDNIGHT MUTANTS music. I don't find it obnoxious and shrieky because the music stays lower pitched throughout. And the volume obnoxious.

One of the real tricks to getting good TIA music is catering to the limited pitch/frequency resolution or happening upon existing music that falls within (or close to) those limits. (some games seem to remix the music a bit to avoid sour notes -I wonder if that could have been done with Gyruss)

 

It also would have been interesting if some developers give the option to allow music only modes for both hardware channels dedicated to music. (ie sort of like EU computer games with "music or SFX" except some cases might merit a "music and SFX" option as well -a lot of cases probably would actually, if not most, set up with both channels used for music but cutting out one to play FX as needed -something that far too few EU computer games offered and almost none offerin it as an option: ie games that pushed SFX with music usually didn't have a music only option and games with a music only option didn't usually have a music+SFX option even though that should have been an obvious preference that many other games pushed by default at the expense of music)

 

For 7800 exclusives, they could have catered carefully to TIA to create interesting/catchy tunes that still avoided sour notes within reason. (there's a line between making the music more complex at the expense of straining things a bit vs staying within the limits for simpler music)

This is one of the best TIA chiptunes I've heard:

http://battleofthebits.org/arena/Entry/Lobbyists/3691/

 

But yes, Midnight Mutants has some of the less unpleasant sounding in-game music on the 7800 using TIA.

[Atarifever]

 

Interesting. At least they weren't from one of the biggest flops (2600 Pac-Man)

How is the best selling 2600 game a flop? It's also the first game I ever played, and here I am still talking about an obscure old system, from a dead hardware company at 30. So it wasn't that bad. I still remember when the 2600 came home and my brother put that game on. I didn't think it was the future. I thought it was frigging magic!

[DracIsBack]

How is the best selling 2600 game a flop?

 

Misforecasted is probably more accurate. I think they thought it would sell even more than it did so sales did not 'meet expectations', but the expectations were ludicrously high. Even today, a 7 million selling game on a single console is pretty rare in the grand scheme of things.

 

The same could be said of ET too. It's remembered as a bomb, but not always reported as having sold quite a lot of units too. But again, misforecasted.

[+darryl1970]

 

Interesting. At least they weren't from one of the biggest flops (2600 Pac-Man)

How is the best selling 2600 game a flop? It's also the first game I ever played, and here I am still talking about an obscure old system, from a dead hardware company at 30. So it wasn't that bad. I still remember when the 2600 came home and my brother put that game on. I didn't think it was the future. I thought it was frigging magic!

 

It was a flop, not because of numbers sold, but how it hurt Atari's reputation. I remember Mom and Dad pre-ordered it from JC Penny's. We bought it on the hype and hope. When I got home, I was told I had to eat before I could play; but they let me put the game in to see it. I remember eating my hamburger, wondering what the heck I was looking at... What were the flickering blocks that came out of the SIDE of the box.

 

 

Nothing about that game captures the cuteness nor excitement of the arcade. Games like Space Invaders or Asteroids played UP the Atari's weaknesses, making them almost better. Pac-Man caused a lot of people to loose faith in their Atari. Atari even used,

as a SLAM to Coleco. Pac-Man didn't face up and down, he tried to eat through walls, the sound was nothing like the arcade, there were no wafers NOR vitamins in the arcade. Atari messed up Pac-Man forever by renaming the "MONSTERS" (Read the arcade instructions) as "Ghosts", in an effort to explain the white, flickering MESS! The "Ghosts" stayed in their box until the "Power Pill" (Energizer) wore off, so it was WAY too easy. The scoring was off by, and the challenge was watered down even more by earning an extra Pac-Man by clearing a screen.

 

 

It was very well known as being an embarrassment, due to being rushed to market. I am not trying to slam good memories, so please don't take it personally. That game is going to have special memories for people. As disappointing as it was, it holds a place in my heart, but it was commonly referred to by people that wanted to slam Atari. I am just reporting history It was a case where people bought it for the name, and then they felt burnt. It really did hurt Atari's credibility in the Market, which is why I said people lost faith. That is one of the reasons that Ms. Pac-Man was SO MUCH BETTER. It is what Pac-Man SHOULD have been.

 

Finally, go to a flea market or classic gaming show. There are about as many orphaned Pac-Man games as there are orphaned E.T. games! Yes, it SOLD until word got out. However, back then, many people bought it on pre-order.

 

Don't take MY word for it... Check the links below... OR GOOGLE "2600 Pac Man Flop"

Even the WEAKER Odyssey2 had K.C. Munchkin, which captured MORE of the cuteness of Pac-Man, although not a Pac-Man game. This article quotes the following:

Atari's home version of Pac-Man for the Atari 2600 would prove to be one of the first major failures leading to the video game crash of 1983.

 

What went wrong? Atari's two biggest flops...

[Rex Dart]

Pac-Man didn't face up and down, he tried to eat through walls, the sound was nothing like the arcade, there were no wafers NOR vitamins in the arcade. Atari messed up Pac-Man forever by renaming the "MONSTERS" (Read the arcade instructions) as "Ghosts", in an effort to explain the white, flickering MESS!

 

Wafers, hah. Atari sure missed out on an advertising opportunity by not pairing up with Kellog to sell pac-man pop-tarts. He's eating 'em on the damn cart label.

 

As far as renaming "monsters" to "ghosts"... they're ghosts, and ghosts are monsters, so it doesn't really matter. It's surely a translation thing, since the game came from Japan (look up all their yokai, they don't really differentiate between what we'd call a cartoon ghost & a monster).

Edited February 10, 2011 by Rex Dart

[ZylonBane]

They're not ghosts, they're... something... dressed as ghosts, as revealed in one of the intermissions, when one of them tears his sheet.

[Tubular Gearhead]

They're not ghosts, they're... something... dressed as ghosts, as revealed in one of the intermissions, when one of them tears his sheet.

 

LOL I forgot all about that!

 

So what the H*LL are they anyway?? (sounds like a quote from that old Stand By Me movie )

Edited February 10, 2011 by Tubular Gearhead

[+darryl1970]

They're not ghosts, they're... something... dressed as ghosts, as revealed in one of the intermissions, when one of them tears his sheet.

 

This has been my "argument" for years! The 2nd and 3rd intermissions and the bezel that has the "Monster Point Value!" make them seem like something more than "ghosts."

 

 

I have wondered if it had to do with a mistranslation. They are shaped like ghosts, but are something dressed as ghosts.

Edited February 10, 2011 by darryl1970

[+darryl1970]

Wafers, hah. Atari sure missed out on an advertising opportunity by not pairing up with Kellog to sell pac-man pop-tarts. He's eating 'em on the damn cart label.

 

Too funny! I remember seeing the mock-up picture before the release (remember, they couldn't do screen shots back then, so everything was a drawing). I thought they just couldn't draw dots or something.. And the "Ghosts" were all crooked, so I thought they were going to teeter back and forth when they went through the maze...lol. I thought it might be even BETTER than the arcade in SOME ways... Ah to be young, naive and wishful.

 

Edited February 11, 2011 by darryl1970

[Rex Dart]

They're not ghosts, they're... something... dressed as ghosts, as revealed in one of the intermissions, when one of them tears his sheet.

 

This has been my "argument" for years! The 2nd and 3rd intermissions and the bezel that has the "Monster Point Value!" make them seem like something more than "ghosts."

 

 

I have wondered if it had to do with a mistranslation. They are shaped like ghosts, but are something dressed as ghosts.

 

 

Well I'll be... it's a Number Muncher, out for sweet, sweet decimal points.

[kool kitty89]

How is the best selling 2600 game a flop?

 

Misforecasted is probably more accurate. I think they thought it would sell even more than it did so sales did not 'meet expectations', but the expectations were ludicrously high. Even today, a 7 million selling game on a single console is pretty rare in the grand scheme of things.

 

The same could be said of ET too. It's remembered as a bomb, but not always reported as having sold quite a lot of units too. But again, misforecasted.

Yep, they should have tempered it a lot more, especially since they pushed it in such a rushed manner. They could have produced a couple million carts (if that) and followed it up with a proper "Pac Man Deluxe" using something more like Fry's inteded full sprite multiplexer. (would have been nice if they pushed for arcade colors too, something that was restricted even from the VCS version of Ms Pac Man -but not 5200/A8/7800- and also would have made the flicker less problematic -use of high contrast ghost colors and a black background could look better, more so with a proper per-line flicker based multiplexer a la Ms Pac Man)

Probably still no intermissions, but perhaps proper start music, better sound, and more animation. (again, an 8k cart)

Especially if they pushed the deluxe version by the 1982 holiday season.

 

The initial Pac Man was a decent game on its own, but a poor conversion of the arcade game. (thus many people who had no idea what the Arcade game was weren't disappointed -though I think Space Invaders would still have been a better pack-in to push at the time, at least as an option along with Combat -aging and no fun without 2 players, but good fun multiplayer)

 

 

ET was a different issue with Atari put in a bad position by Warner forcing an extremely expensive (tens of millions) license and condition of a 1982 holiday release. They overproduced it as that was the minimum number felt to be able to generate profit after the high license overhead, but in hindsight they should have been more conservative and eaten the loss with no more than 1 million carts produced (preferably more like 1/2 that) and not only having a much more modest loss, but also the potential to recoup that (and then some) with follow-up ET licensed games that were more polished. (like ET Phone Home on the A8)

 

 

 

 

 

They're not ghosts, they're... something... dressed as ghosts, as revealed in one of the intermissions, when one of them tears his sheet.

They're monsters (per the Japanese description iirc), and I believe that cutscene is not supposed to be ripping the "sheet" but rather ripping a chunk of fur off the monster.

Edited February 11, 2011 by kool kitty89