7800 - what did Atari wrong?

[Tubular Gearhead]

Imagine if there was a slot you could open up the 7800 and drop cartridge style slot RAM [a la the 800] into it to max out its capabilities... That would've been easy enough for Joe Consumer to upgrade the RAM for more intense "pro" and "super" games. Of course, it would be best to encourage it being done at an Atari Authorized Service Center....

 

Well, it won't be long now and we will be pretty much able to do just that... 7800XM!

[5200Fanatic]

IMHO it was too little too late. 5200 was not well received and lasted only two years. Atari did correct a lot of the problems of the 5200 in the 7800. I see the 7800 much like the Dreamcast. Both good systems, but people were burned by prior releases and the competition was too strong. Plus, Atari was to some extent cannibalizing its video game line by its computer line.

[Lynxpro]

IMHO it was too little too late. 5200 was not well received and lasted only two years. Atari did correct a lot of the problems of the 5200 in the 7800. I see the 7800 much like the Dreamcast. Both good systems, but people were burned by prior releases and the competition was too strong. Plus, Atari was to some extent cannibalizing its video game line by its computer line.

 

 

Atari didn't maximize the 5200 to its potential. For example, they failed to store the bodies of the executives of Nintendo Japan in the unit's joystick bin.

 

For all of Steve Ross's alleged mob connections, he just wasn't gangsta enough!

Edited February 9, 2011 by Lynxpro

[5200Fanatic]

IMHO it was too little too late. 5200 was not well received and lasted only two years. Atari did correct a lot of the problems of the 5200 in the 7800. I see the 7800 much like the Dreamcast. Both good systems, but people were burned by prior releases and the competition was too strong. Plus, Atari was to some extent cannibalizing its video game line by its computer line.

 

 

Atari didn't maximize the 5200 to its potential. For example, they failed to store the bodies of the executives of Nintendo Japan in the unit's joystick bin.

 

For all of Steve Ross's alleged mob connections, he just wasn't gangsta enough!

 

I didn't mention that the size of the console was a little over the top in the 5200 forum. I think if I did, they'd have hired someone to take my knees out!

[krewat]

Indeed. Or a POKEY, for that matter. What's really sad is that 28-pin SRAMs are only available in 8K or 32K (someone correct me if I'm wrong about this), but Atari's cartridges could only support up to 16K. So if a game needed more than 8K, they had to put a 32K chip in there and then use only half of it.

 

I'm almost sure there were 128Kb (16KB) chips... but then, maybe I'm thinking EPROMs.

[Bruce Tomlin]

I think they did way too many things wrong, and the 7800 was lucky to even exist.

 

* Warner selling, Tramiel buying

 

That caused Atari to reverse course on a lot of projects, causing more product line churn. And it wasn't just that they sold it, it was who they sold it to. Kindly Uncle Jack was really cheap except where it would let him compete with Commodore.

 

* Waiting two years

 

Jack didn't believe in console games, and apparently even hated them. His only goal was revenge on Commodore, and everything else was irrelevant. So the first 5,000 or so 7800 units got shelved in a warehouse somewhere.

 

Common wisdom at the time was that console games were a fad that had run out. The real problem was that only the 2600 and its contemporaries were the fad, and it was time for next generation hardware. Consoles simply hadn't kept up with home computers and coin-op hardware. If Warner hadn't sold Atari to Tramiel, if the 7800 hadn't been shelved for two years, if, if, if... maybe Atari could have brought the console industry back to life. (Hell, if Coleco had gone with a "super game module" instead of the Adam, _they_ could have been the ones to bring the industry back to life!)

 

After all, the console industry didn't die in Japan... which leads to...

 

* Licenses tied up

 

The 7800 was finally let out of jail for two reasons: 1) Jack needed money for his war against Commodore, and 2) Nintendo was showing what I had just said, that it was only the previous generation of hardware that had come to its end.

 

And because Nintendo had the head start, they could tie up licenses for all that stuff, and much was already tied up from their success in the Japanese market with the Famicom. So what if it was later found to be illegal trade practices, the damage had already been done.

 

* TIA sound

 

Holy crap on a stick, just because you already had sound from the backwards compatibility doesn't mean it's worth keeping as the primary sound source. Even TI's PSG (the one in the Colecovision and TI-99) would have been an improvement.

 

* Not enough RAM

 

Can't quite blame Atari for this. 4-bit DRAM chips hadn't arrived yet, and 1-bit chips take up board space and need a DRAM controller chip. (I _can_ blame Coleco, however, since the Z-80 had 4K/16K DRAM support built in.) What they maybe could have done is bite the bullet for an 8K chip, knowing the prices would go down soon. The real problem is that two year gap, during which the 8K chips probably did go down in price. But they were already built, and Jack was just trying to get some cash for crap in the warehouse.

 

For whoever said they could have had a RAM expansion slot, that has two problems no matter what system you're talking about, it splits the market, and the connectors and plastic have costs associated with them. The N64 is the only system that ever got away with it.

 

* No separate video bus

 

This didn't hurt the 7800 during it's life, really, but the NES and SMS both had a two-bus design. The better your display looks, the more cycles Maria is gonna steal from your game logic. The separate video bus on the cartridge slot also allowed budget NES titles to simply use a small ROM with the character set, instead of having to copy it to video RAM first, which also saves the cost of that extra video RAM.

 

* Needing expensive hardware in cartridges

 

Sound: a whole freaking Pokey chip, which not only costs money for the chip, but for the board size of fitting that 40-pin monstrosity into a 2600 cartridge shell. First of all, Atari really should have built a 28-pin Pokey with the I/O pins removed (again, Jack would have been too cheap), and the only real use it got was Ballblazer (an 8-bit conversion with probably the most awesome Pokey soundtrack ever.) Commando didn't have that awesome soundtrack to live up to.

 

Memory: at least you _could_ add more RAM in the cartridge, however you had to add that to _every_ cartridge that needed it, and the base console only had 4K for both work and video memory. Also, Jack was too cheap to make games with lots of ROM.

 

* Developers, developers, developers

 

Cheap Jack wanted developers to take all the financial risks whenever possible. If you had a game already finished, you could probably license it to Atari, but you would have to learn to program the thing first, then actually take the time to program it. So we got a lot of games from GCC, who already knew the 7800 since they were the ones who designed it.

 

* Too many product lines

 

Yeah, 2600, 5200, 7800, 8-bit (multiple lines of that), and the pseudo 8-bit XEGS. Splitting your market isn't a good idea. It didn't help that the computer guys got a lot more resources than the console guys, and didn't really want their stuff shared into low-budget consoles. (That's why the 5200 was a scrambled 400.)

 

NOT the reason:

* removing the expansion port

 

The 7800 "expansion port" was basically a stupid idea. It ONLY SUPPORTED EXTERNAL VIDEO INPUT, okay guys? Quit thinking it was some magical thing that could have spouted rainbows out of the 7800. All it could do is let you slap something on the side of the 7800 that wasn't the 7800, and do some video overlay.

 

Laserdisc? Laserdisc players were expensive, and making the discs was more expensive than originally thought. (Because at first they didn't think they needed a clean room.) And nobody wanted it because it couldn't record. Also, the inferior CED technology gave LD an undeservedly bad reputation, further reducing its market penetration.

 

Even in coin-op arcades, video overlay games didn't make that much of a dent in things. Video games weren't a fad, but laserdisc games were. They were just rail shooters and "choose your adventure" games that required timing.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Bruce Tomlin

[DracIsBack]

Jack didn't believe in console games, and apparently even hated them. His only goal was revenge on Commodore, and everything else was irrelevant. So the first 5,000 or so 7800 units got shelved in a warehouse somewhere.

 

You're going to open up a can of worms with Marty ...

 

Common wisdom at the time was that console games were a fad that had run out.

 

I find the Tramiels get a lot of beating for that, but I can't say I blame them. The market had declined by 97% in two years. Many of their retailers were chalk full of inventory and didn't want to hear "video game". The press was savaging video games as a fad. Coleco had jumped. Matel had jumped. Systems died on the vine.

 

Even if they were looking at continuing the video game business, I can see why they would have focused their efforts on bigger problems ... like trying to restructure Atari and evaluate the war zone that was Atari Inc to determine what was salvageable ... all while trying to keep the company alive.

 

And because Nintendo had the head start, they could tie up licenses for all that stuff, and much was already tied up from their success in the Japanese market with the Famicom.

 

 

Wasn't the issue also that Nintendo had the relationships? The hot games were coming out of Japan and Atari had never really had any presence there whereas Nintendo did, having had the Famicom in market before Jack took over.

 

 

So what if it was later found to be illegal trade practices, the damage had already been done.

 

Yeah - I thought Nintendo got off really lucky in that one. They effectively killed the Atari systems as well as the Master System in North America by the time the policies were dropped. The SMS lived on because 1) the European market took off later; and 2) it was easy to do Master System versions of GameGear games. That's why you see 3-4 games that came out in Europe for every one that came out in North America.

 

 

Also, the inferior CED technology gave LD an undeservedly bad reputation, further reducing its market penetration.

 

Those were the RCA video discs?

[krewat]

Cheap Jack wanted developers to take all the financial risks whenever possible. If you had a game already finished, you could probably license it to Atari, but you would have to learn to program the thing first, then actually take the time to program it. So we got a lot of games from GCC, who already knew the 7800 since they were the ones who designed it.

 

Yep, me and a few other developers spent a lot of time in initial ramp-up on just learning how to do things on the 7800. We had NO example code, the "developer's kit" wasn't available to us until much MUCH later at which point I looked at it and said "who wants to use an Atari ST" when I have a clock-modded (and NEC V20) IBM-XT, an IBM-AT I was able to overclock, and a decent crosscompiler (AD2500) and editor (I used TECO which I had written for DOS)". Plus, 8-bits of interface to upload binaries to the 7800 static ram cart (which I designed myself before we even got cards from Atari), etc. etc.

 

Me, I was a somewhat-salaried employee/consultant. There were other developers working at home who just got paid flat-rate. I don't think they EVER finished anything. If I remember correctly, the only things we got done were Impossible Mission, Summer/Winter games, one-on-one (which I think someone else worked on somewhat initially), and I'm not even sure anything else got done. Not that I can remember, anyway.

[DracIsBack]

Me, I was a somewhat-salaried employee/consultant. There were other developers working at home who just got paid flat-rate. I don't think they EVER finished anything. If I remember correctly, the only things we got done were Impossible Mission, Summer/Winter games, one-on-one (which I think someone else worked on somewhat initially), and I'm not even sure anything else got done. Not that I can remember, anyway.

 

Do you remember what else was being worked on but not finished?

 

The nerve of you wanting to be paid ... most inconsiderate of you!

[krewat]

Do you remember what else was being worked on but not finished?

 

I have a copy of all the contracts that were with independent consultants while I was there, I'm trying to find it. There should be game titles in there.

[krewat]

Do you remember what else was being worked on but not finished?

 

I have a copy of all the contracts that were with independent consultants while I was there, I'm trying to find it. There should be game titles in there.

 

Nothing new, just two different people that were given Summer Games to work on, and one got One-on-One.

[CV Gus]

The problem with this thread - and so many similar ones.....is that everybody is an armchair CEO with 25-years of hindsight, and they think the answer is SOOOOOO SIMPLE that they just figured out exactly where the Tramiels went wrong, and that it was all their fault. Is that even possible?

 

lol, way to throw cold water on the thread.

 

Yes, it's an armchair CEO thread. So what? Jack Tramiel got some things right (re-introduction of 2600 into the market, introduction of 7800) and some things wrong (not securing exclusivity for Atari Games IPs in the home consumer market, XEGS long term).

 

This topic is no better or worse than post-game analysis of any sport contest. Should we simply cease from discussion, analysis, speculation, and critique of a coach's (or manager's) moves in a soccer, football, or baseball game? No. It's part of the fun. Or are you one of those that believe that such speculative topics should never be around because, "oh, we weren't in that position so how would we know"? As silly as these topics may be, sillier still is criticism of them based on the idea that we have no right to such things "because we weren't there and weren't in charge".

 

 

I was around while this was happening- right from the first articles about the 7800.

 

Therefore, for me, what had happened back then was in the present.

 

Most of the replies here are accurate. Atari released the 7800 several years after it was supposed to have been released, after the NES was going, and in spite of the overpowering strengths of the NES, all stupid Tramiel-Atari ever gave the 7800 was weak, cheap, scattershot, pathetic support. I bought one in 1988, and every time it looked like Atari might finally get something right, sure enough Atari would drop the ball. It lacked the skillful leadership of the NES, the marketing talent, the RESEARCH AND DEVELOPEMENT, the third-party support, the genres so popular back then (like RPGs and side-scrollers), it was hopeless- the CV or the 5200 would have put up a better fight, and quite frankly, the 7800 wasn't really much better than either of those earlier systems.

[Rex Dart]

I think a better question would be "What did Atari do right?"

As far as answering that... I suppose the console itself was mostly better than the 2600 while still being compatible with most software. Other than that, not much was done right. They did get a decent controller out there, but that was so late (and limited) that it really can't count as "done right". Atari had a really pathetic disinterest in the system, and it showed, and it spread.

[spiffyone]

 

 

Nintendo had:

 

Super Mario Bros

Zelda

Castelvania

 

Sega had:

 

After Burner

Hangon

Alex Kidd

 

And we all know that Atari had nothing like that. Pole Position II and Xevious were the best (graphically) in my opinion.

 

You kinda danced around the more important issue:

 

It's not just that Nintendo and Sega had those games, but that they had the developers behind those games to support their consoles. Castlevania is a good example of 3rd party support on NES, but, of course, part of the reason for that 3rd party support was Nintendo's illegal practices at the time. But, even if we ignore that, we're still left with the main reason that folks bought NES: Nintendo developed games. It wasn't just that NES had Super Mario Bros., Legend of Zelda and Metroid, but that Nintendo had the internal dev teams behind those games (EAD for Super Mario and Zelda, R&D1 for Metroid).

 

As for Sega, they didn't have the 3rd party support that Nintendo did (outside of Europe), but they did have something that kept their console afloat: Sega developed games, particularly ports of arcade games, but also original console games. Again, though, it was more than just having those IPs and those games...it was having the teams behind them. Sega would've been nothing if not for having AM2 (After Burner, Hang On) and AM7 (Alex Kidd, Phantasy Star) developing ports of arcade games and original console offerings.

 

So what did Atari have? Nothing, really. They didn't have the 3rd party support Nintendo did, of course, but that really couldn't be helped (again, illegal practices on Nintendo's part). What could've been helped is internal support...if Tramiel had done one of two things (or both):

 

1. Buy Atari Games when he bought Atari's consumer division. This would've enabled either having a team in place to make games for 7800, or at the very least give 7800 exclusivity over ports from Atari's arcade game line-up (which would've helped, as games like Gauntlet, etc. would've had exclusive console ports only on 7800).

 

2. Continue the contract with GCC. They designed the system, they knew it in and out, and they made some pretty great arcade conversions. And they also were capable of coming up with new ideas (Food Fight, while a port of an arcade game, was created by GCC). I'm pretty sure if Atari Corp. had GCC still cranking out 7800 games, the folks at GCC would've looked at what the market wanted (original titles like platformers and action games) and tried their best to design and develop games of that sort that played to 7800's strengths. And since they designed 7800, they'd know better than anyone exactly how to push the console (so we would've seen what 7800 was really capable of).

 

Either one of those things could've helped the game library a great deal, and it's the software that sells game consoles. Both of those things would've been best case scenario, and probably would've made 7800 more attractive to consumers. All the extra RAM in the world, and POKEY built into the unit wouldn't have made a lick of a difference if the software wasn't there. The problem with 7800 wasn't a hardware issue so much as a software issue. It simply didn't have the games to compete with NES or SMS for that matter (I know it "beat" SMS sales figures in the US, but everyone can admit that Sega's game library was not only larger but all around higher quality because of the massive amount of goodness Sega was throwing out on that system).

 

Atari needed software. In lieu of 3rd party support, and even with it, the best strategy to secure good software is to have internal development teams or a close 2nd party relationship with such a team. That's why not buying the arcade division (Atari Games) when he had the chance was probably the biggest oversight Tramiel committed, and being cheap with GCC ranking right up there. Tramiel should have bought Atari Games when it was offered, or at least part of it, or at least secured an exclusive contract for home console ports as Warner was so desperate to sell. And by all rights he should've at least treated GCC better and extended some sort of contract offer, as they were the team behind the console design itself and knew it in and out and were damned good developers to boot.

 

Basically, Atari Games and GCC would've been to Atari Corp. what AM2 and AM7 were to Sega. And that would've made much more of a difference than more RAM and POKEY.

[GroovyBee]

And since they designed 7800, they'd know better than anyone exactly how to push the console (so we would've seen what 7800 was really capable of).

 

7800 homebrewers have pulled a few tricks out of the bag .

[Atarifever]

 

As for Sega, they didn't have the 3rd party support that Nintendo did (outside of Europe), but they did have something that kept their console afloat: Sega developed games, particularly ports of arcade games, but also original console games. Again, though, it was more than just having those IPs and those games...it was having the teams behind them. Sega would've been nothing if not for having AM2 (After Burner, Hang On) and AM7 (Alex Kidd, Phantasy Star) developing ports of arcade games and original console offerings.

 

I am currently playing through Phantasy Star on the 360's Genesis collection (it's an unlockable extra). Not only is it much better than anything on the 7800 (which is still my favorite system anyway), but it is also head and shoulders above any other RPG from around the same time. 3D dungeon sections, different planets, first person views of people you talk to, interesting enemies, murder mystery plot, etc. This thing came out within about a year of Dragon Quest where you had to press a menu option to walk down stairs! Even Final Fantasy 1 with it's "Warriors of Light" storyline was pretty weak sauce in comparison.

[krewat]

Speaking of 3D, I might have just figured a way to get it to work reasonably well on a 7800... within certain limits, of course... Like needing a big enough cartridge for at least 20 angles of each object in the room. Hmmm ...

[jbanes]

2. Continue the contract with GCC. They designed the system, they knew it in and out, and they made some pretty great arcade conversions. And they also were capable of coming up with new ideas (Food Fight, while a port of an arcade game, was created by GCC). I'm pretty sure if Atari Corp. had GCC still cranking out 7800 games, the folks at GCC would've looked at what the market wanted (original titles like platformers and action games) and tried their best to design and develop games of that sort that played to 7800's strengths. And since they designed 7800, they'd know better than anyone exactly how to push the console (so we would've seen what 7800 was really capable of).

 

I hear quite a lot of praise for GCC. And I'm sure they had a good reputation. But let's be careful to understand what that reputation was. After Atari settled with GCC, they were contracted to make two arcade games. The first one (Quantum) completely tanked. It was so bad that arcade operators were sending the machines back and asking for a refund. Food Fight did better, but it was never a AAA title and is not well remembered by the public.

 

In result, I suspect that GCC had a poor reputation for creating original games. Their reputation was more for technical excellence. They could do a kick-ass job in porting a game or developing next-gen hardware. But I doubt anyone was about to use them as a second-party developer for competitive content.

 

In result, the need for GCC tied back somewhat with Atari's need for arcade games. If Atari had rights to popular arcade titles, they could have utilized GCC to port those titles. Otherwise I expect they would have been a very limited resource.

 

(Though seriously: Who sits on a game like Rescue on Fractalus with a name like LucasArts behind it and doesn't get it out the door!?!)

 

Speaking of 3D, I might have just figured a way to get it to work reasonably well on a 7800... within certain limits, of course... Like needing a big enough cartridge for at least 20 angles of each object in the room. Hmmm ...

 

Oh yeah. Those 256Mbit cartridges are already on their way from China.

 

Sounds like a fun tech experiment. Probably good for Resident Evil 7800 Edition!

[Metal Ghost]

2. Continue the contract with GCC. They designed the system, they knew it in and out, and they made some pretty great arcade conversions. And they also were capable of coming up with new ideas (Food Fight, while a port of an arcade game, was created by GCC). I'm pretty sure if Atari Corp. had GCC still cranking out 7800 games, the folks at GCC would've looked at what the market wanted (original titles like platformers and action games) and tried their best to design and develop games of that sort that played to 7800's strengths. And since they designed 7800, they'd know better than anyone exactly how to push the console (so we would've seen what 7800 was really capable of).

 

I hear quite a lot of praise for GCC. And I'm sure they had a good reputation. But let's be careful to understand what that reputation was. After Atari settled with GCC, they were contracted to make two arcade games. The first one (Quantum) completely tanked. It was so bad that arcade operators were sending the machines back and asking for a refund. Food Fight did better, but it was never a AAA title and is not well remembered by the public.

 

In result, I suspect that GCC had a poor reputation for creating original games. Their reputation was more for technical excellence. They could do a kick-ass job in porting a game or developing next-gen hardware. But I doubt anyone was about to use them as a second-party developer for competitive content.

 

In result, the need for GCC tied back somewhat with Atari's need for arcade games. If Atari had rights to popular arcade titles, they could have utilized GCC to port those titles. Otherwise I expect they would have been a very limited resource.

 

 

I'm not saying whether Quantum is a good game or not....I've simply never played it. But that's hardly the final word on whether it was terrible or not. Rumor is that Atari threw I, Robot cabs into the ocean, and that's considered a seminal arcade game.

 

But beyond that, having GCC under contract would've indeed allowed them to spread their technical expertise to those with game ideas but whom simply didn't have the no-how to create 7800 games. I mean, by this point GCC was pretty much synonomous with Atari in-house console programming. I believe they programmed ~50% of the 5200's games. Whether they created the best game ideas or not is almost besides the point. Then on top of that they actually designed the console in question? Hell, aside from the name 'Atari' on the badge GCC could've really been considered the 1st party source of games for the thing, and in the end they simply weren't there to support it. Bad, bad situation. While I don't have the exact reference to the quote, I believe I recently read in the book 'Supercade' (or maybe the 'Ultimate History of Video Games'???) Doug Macrae stating that once he saw Mr. Tramiel come into Atari, he simply knew that GCC could not develop a mutually beneficial and mutually profitable relationship with him, and that was that. Not jumping on the 'hate on Jack' bandwagon, but that is how he sized up the situation.

 

As you said in another thread:

 

Because the technology is worthless without the people who know how to maintain and enhance it.

 

I know that's a very modern view, but that's something that used to really bug me about the corporate market. They seemed to think that technology somehow existed in a vacuum. Yet technology can easily be best described as an expression of a person or team's knowledge and understanding. Taking the expression without the source will give the tech a very short shelf-life, indeed!

 

Not historically helpful in the slightest, but I needed to get that off my chest.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Metal Ghost

[jbanes]

I'm not saying whether Quantum is a good game or not....I've simply never played it. But that's hardly the final word on whether it was terrible or not. Rumor is that Atari threw I, Robot cabs into the ocean, and that's considered a seminal arcade game.

 

Semantic quibble, but an important one: I stated that Quantum tanked, not that I have an opinion on its quality as a game. The fact that Quantum did poorly is simply a historical fact that is beyond dispute. My argument is that Atari would not have seen GCC as a good resource for creating non-port games after that debacle.

 

 

But beyond that, having GCC under contract would've indeed allowed them to spread their technical expertise to those with game ideas but whom simply didn't have the no-how to create 7800 games. I mean, by this point GCC was pretty much synonomous with Atari in-house console programming. I believe they programmed ~50% of the 5200's games. Whether they created the best game ideas or not is almost besides the point. Then on top of that they actually designed the console in question? Hell, aside from the name 'Atari' on the badge GCC could've really been considered the 1st party source of games for the thing, and in the end they simply weren't there to support it.

 

Agreed. However, I'm saying that having GCC was fairly useless without a games pipeline to feed them. The relatively poor quality of the 7800 library was two fold:

 

1. Poor implementation (which GCC could help with)

 

2. Poor IP (which GCC could not help with)

 

On final analysis, #2 was the more important issue to resolve from a business perspective. Simple swallowing GCC and making them a first party developer would have resulted in another Odyssey^2. A bunch of homogeneously-styled games that no one really cared about.

 

Speaking from my experience in the software industry, here's how it would have played out in an ideal world:

 

1. Atari begins obtaining contracts for kick-ass ports and/or invests heavily in in-house game designers

 

2. Games being produced are of sub-standard quality. (Think: Double Dragon) Management demands explanation and is told that "the system is not capable".

 

3. Management (not being stupid) contacts GCC for help. GCC contracts on a few games and re-develops a solid relationship with Atari.

 

4. Default answer from developers on quality issues becomes, "We need GCC's help."

 

5. Atari does not fold and eventually acquires GCC in-house to save money. Investors see a massive savings and potential for greater returns. Win-Win for everyone.

 

 

I think you'll agree when I say, "Atari failed at step 1".

[Metal Ghost]

Thanks for the clarification on the Quantum item...we're both saying the same thing then.

 

As for game design and creation, I would simply put forth that while their history certainly does not portend a legacy of inspired game making (not coding), this were creative guys. Their Crazy Otto game I feel shows this. Yes, it's a derivative, but a darn fun one. I'm not sure they couldn't have done the same type of thing with, let's say side-scrolling platformers as well, and even better in the future.

 

But taking that off the table (because hell if I know what creatively they would have come up with), I do believe that better game implementation a la GCC would have fueled better IPs and would have had a 'flywheel' effect. But this is what I'm reading into your points, so really I think I'm in agreement with your statements.

 

And yes, I completely agree with point #1

Edited February 11, 2011 by Metal Ghost

[Lynxpro]

[

I hear quite a lot of praise for GCC. And I'm sure they had a good reputation. But let's be careful to understand what that reputation was. After Atari settled with GCC, they were contracted to make two arcade games. The first one (Quantum) completely tanked. It was so bad that arcade operators were sending the machines back and asking for a refund. Food Fight did better, but it was never a AAA title and is not well remembered by the public.

 

 

Speak for yourself in that regard. Food Fight was well remembered by my circle. That was one of the first titles I bought for my 7800. Loved it in the arcade.

 

GCC also did a good job on Crazy Otto/Ms. Pac-Man as well as the Missile Attack mod...

 

 

As for some people in other threads doubting the power of Atari Games Corp. arcade titles and how they could've helped the 7800, I have to say that these people must not have been to many arcades back then. Atari Games titles were consistently amongst the most popular titles in the arcades, along with Sega's wares. They were also some of the most popular ports to the NES - official and unofficial - not to mention the Genesis/Mega Drive once Atari Games/Tengen moved on from the NES.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Lynxpro

[Rex Dart]

NOT the reason:

* removing the expansion port

 

The 7800 "expansion port" was basically a stupid idea. It ONLY SUPPORTED EXTERNAL VIDEO INPUT, okay guys? Quit thinking it was some magical thing that could have spouted rainbows out of the 7800. All it could do is let you slap something on the side of the 7800 that wasn't the 7800, and do some video overlay.

 

 

I'm not disagreeing at all, but I do think that maybe some creative use could've been found. I mean, people go bonkers for the terribly lame audio visualization in the Jaguar and Xbox 360. What if somebody had put out something similar that barfed trippy music-generated LSD hallucinations into your 7800 or something? I'm not saying it would've helped the 7800 at all, but it'd be something other than laserdisc at least. Collectors in 2011 would eat it up, anyways

[krewat]

trippy music-generated LSD hallucinations into your 7800

 

I'm in

[spiffyone]

I am currently playing through Phantasy Star on the 360's Genesis collection (it's an unlockable extra). Not only is it much better than anything on the 7800 (which is still my favorite system anyway), but it is also head and shoulders above any other RPG from around the same time. 3D dungeon sections, different planets, first person views of people you talk to, interesting enemies, murder mystery plot, etc. This thing came out within about a year of Dragon Quest where you had to press a menu option to walk down stairs! Even Final Fantasy 1 with it's "Warriors of Light" storyline was pretty weak sauce in comparison.

 

Fun fact about Phantasy Star: it was really a top team production from Sega. Developed by the team that later became known as AM7 (not only Phantasy Star but Alex Kidd, Shinobi, Altered Beast, Golden Axe, and ALL of the Sega developed Disney IP games), it had the person I dub the "first lady of JRPGs" Phoenix Rae as head designer and, iirc, writer and director of the project, and one Mr. Yuji Naka was lead programmer (this was before he split for AM8...or was it AM9...anyway, the AM team that later became known as Sonic Team).

 

It really is a game ahead of it's time. Maybe not the first JRPG, but it is the best from the bunch of that gen.

 

Phantasy Star II, also another overlooked gem. Lot's of people point to Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy III (US) on SNES, etc. as "better", but from the jump PSII was just leagues ahead of those games story-wise. I won't spoil it for you if you haven't played the game yet, but when you stop and think about how it all shakes out...you'll find that it is one of the first noir type JRPGs out there. Be prepared for a BRUTAL grind fest though.

 

Anyway, that's the kind of stuff that was missing on 7800. Ok, so perhaps JRPGs wouldn't have been there anyway with lack of JP developer support, but WRPGs (or CRPGs, rather) would've "fit", I think. But that would've taken money, and, apparently, Tramiel wasn't willing to spend that sort of money. i can't look down on it from a business sense...I mean, it's shrewd business. But as a gamer...yeah...I can look down on that.