cwilkson Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Hi everyone, I'm getting ready to release the A/V Mod I've been working on. Look for the official announcements on the AtariAge news page soon. For those who can't wait for the announcement, here's a screenshot of the A/V Mod in action to keep you busy! I'm posting here to get an idea of the features that people are interested in....right now, there are a lot of possible features, but the mod might be a bit expensive for some people. If people could reply here with the features that interest them, it would help a lot. Also, the overall price you'd be willing to pay for the mod. I'm looking for things like s-video vs. composite (or both), stereo vs. mono, the ability to adjust the contrast, brightness, and color levels, whether the cables are detachable or hardwired (or removable from inside the case like the standard RF cord), etc. Thanks for your time! -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBall Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I'd love to have S-Video & Stereo (though I don't know if I could convince my wife to let me hook the 2600 up in the living room..). Jacks make it easier if you want long cables, but hardwired means no cables are required, hmmm. Don't know about output tweaks, probably not. BTW your picutre is completely black on my system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted January 13, 2003 Author Share Posted January 13, 2003 BTW your picutre is completely black on my system. Yeah...I just noticed that. Thanks. Apparently, Internet Explorer doesn't recognize PNG files. I've replaced it with a jpg instead. -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerG Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Chris -- I like the idea, but I don't understand how it would be done. Would we send you our system or would you sell us something to install? Best of luck! -- RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Hmm, I'd say sell it as a kit (PCB + components) for $15.00,- assembled for $20.00,- and complete with cables for $25.00,- ! I'd buy a kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerG Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Why is this post now so stretched to the right and hard to read. I have seen this happen many times before on the boards, but I never understand why it happens. It is so annoying to read. I just noticed it after I sent my message. Did I do it somehow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oesii Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Hmm, I'd say sell it as a kit (PCB + components) for $15.00,- assembled for $20.00,- and complete with cables for $25.00,- ! I'd buy a kit. those prices would be quite a deal, I'd pay a little bit more especailly if a stereo mod was included. I wouldn't buy it if it was s-video only because I have most of my gaming systems in my den with older, smaller and non-svideo tv's. Like was said I don't think the wife wants a bunch of 2600's clutter up the living room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Weird, you must have a small screen resolution, I see no scroll bar on my screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Hmm, I'd say sell it as a kit (PCB + components) for $15.00,- assembled for $20.00,- and complete with cables for $25.00,- ! I'd buy a kit. those prices would be quite a deal, I'd pay a little bit more especailly if a stereo mod was included. I wouldn't buy it if it was s-video only because I have most of my gaming systems in my den with older, smaller and non-svideo tv's. Like was said I don't think the wife wants a bunch of 2600's clutter up the living room You just need to tie the S-Video outputs together to get composite and I can't imagine that the cost of the parts is more than $10.00,- so I think the prices I came up with seem pretty reasonable. Although I don't know how complex of a board this is so I am just guessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad2600 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 If it could be done cheap and easily enough, I would consider it. I have 2-3 spare 2600s lying around that could be put to use for something like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted January 13, 2003 Author Share Posted January 13, 2003 RangerG: The A/V Mod will be sold as a pre-assembled board. It's pretty complex, and it's simpler if they're all pre-assembled. There will be an option to have it installed in your machine for you for a little more. CPUWIZ: The partial parts cost is approaching $30. Without connectors or cables. But I'm trying to bring that down before PhilllyClassic. It really is a hell of a board. It's not simple, and it has a lot of features. And parts... currently over 30 parts, plus the board. No cables included. For now. BTW, tying the luma and chroma outputs directly together breaks the output impedence matching. It'll give a composite signal, but it's suboptimal. At best, it could produce ringing, and wave reflections (these are very visible on the screen). And if the outputs are poorly designed it could be destructive over time. -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 RangerG:The A/V Mod will be sold as a pre-assembled board. It's pretty complex, and it's simpler if they're all pre-assembled. There will be an option to have it installed in your machine for you for a little more. CPUWIZ: The partial parts cost is approaching $30. Without connectors or cables. But I'm trying to bring that down before PhilllyClassic. It really is a hell of a board. It's not simple, and it has a lot of features. And parts... currently over 30 parts, plus the board. No cables included. For now. BTW, tying the luma and chroma outputs directly together breaks the output impedence matching. It'll give a composite signal, but it's suboptimal. At best, it could produce ringing, and wave reflections (these are very visible on the screen). And if the outputs are poorly designed it could be destructive over time. -Chris Wow, that's a lot more than I thought, how much do you think you'll get it down to ? Thirty bucks for something I can assemble myself is too much for me. I know, I know it's not optimal but it works with most TV's nowadays. What do you mean by outputs poorly designed ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwilkson Posted January 13, 2003 Author Share Posted January 13, 2003 What do you mean by outputs poorly designed ? I've seen a couple of card designs that used an NPN to drive the luma and a PNP to drive the chroma (or visa versa). The different transistor types were used for DC level shifting, as far as I could tell. They were relying on the DC bias current through the transistors to set the output impedance...the emitters were tied directly to the output connector. Assuming you had low output from the PNP and high output from the NPN, tying the outputs together would cause a direct conflict between the transistors. Between 2.5v and 3v across 2 forward biased diodes. OUCH!! -Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Warlord Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Here's what I'd be interested in: Video Outputs: (from most desired to least) Component S-Video Composite Stereo - Dolby pro-logic if you can Standard hook-ups, no hard wires. Maybe something similiar to the Catbox for Jaguar. I'd be willing to pay up to $75 for a Catbox like device for the 2600. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Mitchell Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Chris: How does your circuit compare to the CD4050 circuit found in the FAQ? Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+johnnywc Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Chris, This mod sounds fantastic. Here are my recommendations: Personally, I would use the stereo out with s-video, but would like to have the option to use composite for TV's without s-video. Also, not hard-wired - I would prefer jacks on the outside of the system (1st choice) or jacks inside with cables that can be replaced. As for cost, I would offer 2 models, a basic and advanced. The basic could possibly have mono/composite and the advanced would have stereo/s-video (or switchable). I'm not sure what your costs are but a low-end/low cost solution would probably be very appealing to some people. Maybe even 3 models: Composite, Super, and Switchable. Again, your costs for each part would determine that. I have modded my 4-switch with Ben's mod. In your opinion, how does your mod compare to this one? What are the main advantages? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I'd be interested in: 1) Switchable S-Video/composite output, although if I had to pick one, it'd be S-Video. I can always add an adapter, or run it through a VCR for composite. 2) Switchable stereo/mono output (although mono would be fine - since that's how the 2600 has been running for the last 25 years, I see little point in adding stereo. But I'm sure others have an interest in it). 3) Connectors, instead of hard-wiring. And I'd suggest pre-mounting them on a small, rectangular plate. Then, the user could just cut one hole (and a notch for the cables) in the back of the 2600, and mount the connectors with just a couple of screws. Less fiddling. Neater installation. Like so: (I forgot to include the switches, but the concept is the same.) The hole doesn't have to be cut very neatly either - since it would be covered by the mounting plate. Also, this method would allow the option of just leaving the connectors loose inside the case, so only the cables would come out of the existing RF hole. (For those not wishing to chop up their 2600). The plate could be hot-glued somewhere out of the way. 4) I don't think I'd be interested in adjusting any of the parameters. As long as the circuit is generating accurate colors in the first place, I'd rather have a mod that couldn't accidentally be screwed up. It might cut costs a little too, depending on how you've designed it. 5) Price? Well, having built several mods, I'd pay $50-$60 for a good, pre-built one that was easy to install, that included items #1-3 shown above. ("Easy to install" meaning: soldering to the leads of resistors, rather than to the TIA, or better still, have the mod come pre-attached to an intermediate 40-pin socket, that fits between the TIA and the existing socket. Just plug-and-play. Or rather, unplug-plug-and-play. ) For a similar, but limited kit that only had mono and S-Video (or just mono and composite) and no switches - $45 - $50. For a similar (limited) kit that took some effort to install (bending up pins on the TIA and soldering directly to them, soldering on connectors, etc.), $35 - $40. For a kit that included only parts, instructions, and a pre-printed PCB that had to be completely assembled, $25. But for a build-it-yourself kit, I'd again consider limiting it to mono output, and S-Video only. (Or mono and composite only.) That's probably more feedback than you ever wanted. Also, for people interested in comparisons of the various mods out there, I've set up this page which has frame captures from the various mods shown in the FAQ (although I couldn't get the video driver mod to work). There's another mod someone (sorry I forget who) posted to the hardware forum recently that I haven't built yet, but I'll add it when I get the chance. I'll also be adding Chris' mod when it's available. In the meantime, you can compare his Pitfall II screenshot to the ones I've posted. That should give you a rough idea of the differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 For those who don't recall, I've been consistently hyping Chris' work since he modified my 2600 a long time ago (over 3 years I think now). There are many video mods out there but they are all very hacky. The worst part about most video hacks is they tap lines off the motherboard intsead of the TIA chip. By doing this they are grabbing a weaker, dirtier signal full of all sorts of interference (especially from the RF modulator). NTSC video is a very finicky beast and Chris has put a LOT of research into optimizing the TIA's output for NTSC, which isn't easy because the TIA does not output a truly legal NTSC signal to begin with!! For my prototype he tapped the TIA chips directly and defeated the RF output and the resulting picture is very clean. It's what I used for much of Stella at 20. But he's since improved the signal even more and I've been looking to upgrade to his final board design all this time. The way he modified mine it yields 4 RCA jacks on the back. Two are for audio, and I just use a Y cable to sum the stereo back to mono for TVs that don't support stereo. Two are for video, using the C=64 style approach of chroma/luma through RCA, with an internal switch on the breadboard to go from composite to Y/C. When in composite mode one of the lines switches to composite (I forget which). For hookups to normal S-video gear you need an RCA->S-Video adapter which is pretty easy to make by hand by cannibalizing an S-Video cable. You aren't going to get component from the 2600 because the TIA outputs Y/C. You'd have to synthesize component by splitting the signal further and you won't gain anything that way. In fact, to some people Y/C might not look that good. There is a weird banding problem that is really the 2600's fault when you use the Y/C signal. Chris has worked hard to minimize its appearance but it can't be completely fixed. (This problem also shows up on the Atari 8-bit, especially the 130XE). Chris can explain it better but it has to do with the way the chips output more of a square wave than a smooth sin wave. But with all the manual controls he's planning, I'm sure everyone will be able to tweak it to taste. Because it's designed now as a daughtercard that plugs into the TIA socket, I don't think it involves much if any soldering to the motherboard itself (unless your 2600 has a soldered TIA chip or one of those 1-chip designs). If this gets released as planned I am sure it's going to be the must-have piece of hardware for 2600 fans next to the Cuttle Cart, and if you have already hacked up your 2600 for A/V you are going to regret not waiting for the real deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaManFan Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Because it's designed now as a daughtercard that plugs into the TIA socket, I don't think it involves much if any soldering to the motherboard itself (unless your 2600 has a soldered TIA chip or one of those 1-chip designs). If it's that simple to install, I'll buy one fo' sho'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Because it's designed now as a daughtercard that plugs into the TIA socket, I don't think it involves much if any soldering to the motherboard itself If that's the case, I changed my mind. I'd pay up to $75 (including shipping). Something that effortless for those kind of results is worth a pretty good chunk of change to me. Plus Chris should reap some additional profit for all of the work he's put into this. (On an off-topic note - cybpunks: have you ever considered a DVD re-issue of Stella at 20? I have the first volume and think it's great, but couldn't get the second one. I'd love to get a DVD version.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 OOOH! That sounds AWESOME! I -CAN'T- wait :-) I may have missed this somewhere, but what model(s) is it compatible with? 7800 ??? :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Read the topic name again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 still doesnt tell me what models? (big sexy, darth, 4 switch, sears, jr, 2800 (aka sears video arcade 2,) etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 All of the above, the graphics chip (TIA) is the same in all of them, I said that because you stated the 7800. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 i was just being hopeful :-) love to see 7800 desert falcon on svid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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