Albert Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Wow, I just listened to the top four tunes at the Grayscale Project and they are simply incredible! If you enjoy Atari 8-bit music then you have to listen to these. I'm going to grab the other songs now and listen to them as well.. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.skid Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 I'm listening right now the first (running emu) and it's great.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Please notice, that "My little Mouse" is a PC-Track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Slocum Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 The tracks are great, but they're cheating a little by using two Pokeys. -Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Am I the only one that cant get to this page? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Slocum Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 The first time I tried it, it wouldn't load. I tried it again the next day and got it, but it was still really slow. -Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Paul, I think you're being harsh Two Pokey's is hardly cheating - the chips support the mapping out the box and adding a second pokey is all too easy - I would recommend the upgrade to any 8bit audio fan. On the Harlequin Pysgnosis conversions we were gonna have dual Pokey support - just beacuse its so cool to do the stereo effects!!! sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Paul, I think you're being harsh Two Pokey's is hardly cheating ... sTeVE If ATARI tried to release such a stereo upgrading cardridge, or there were official upgrades, the two POKEYs were a legal do... If not, it is cheating ... .... in my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Cheating - cheating who, cheating what, what are we talking about??? Is adding a new video card to you PC cheating (whomever or whatever you think you are in competition against I cannot imagine), but anyway - its not. Being smart and using a nice simple DIY upgrade to get loads of great performance from an existing system is kinda cool... If Atari had been 1/2 smart they would have brought out a multiple pokey machine in the normal order of upgrades and the like - wouldn't it have been cool if the XL line had come with 8 channel stereo audio outta the box - that would have shut up those daft C64 owners!!!! I like my 1200XL (the best 8bit IMHO) to continually grow - it is recieving a multiple OS upgrade soon, and then dual pokey, just like my 130XE has (but that's PAL and doesn't get much use now).... sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 @Jetboot Jack >Is adding a new video card to you PC cheating (whomever or whatever you think you are in competition against I cannot imagine), but anyway - its not. Being smart and using a nice simple DIY upgrade to get loads of great performance from an existing system is kinda cool... A video card is an official upgrade for the PC. You do not have to build such a card or an expansion! And as I wrote before, if there were official upgrades for the ATARI, it is all right. But if not... it is cheating >If Atari had been 1/2 smart they would have brought out a multiple pokey machine in the normal order of upgrades and the like - wouldn't it That's right. But they didn't. In addition: As the XL appeared, they left out to give this machine a "clearer" GTIA and a better Layout for the Audio-Out-connector that was/is more a problem than the usage of one POKEY. >have been cool if the XL line had come with 8 channel stereo audio outta the box - that would have shut up those daft C64 owners!!!! If the programmers on the ATARI had been 1/2 smart they would have taken as much effort as programmers did on C64, there would have been since 1983 Music like made with the Raster Music Tracker, without a second POKEY ...and there were games with 16 colors instead of the standard 4 colors... without any hardwareupgrades. .... and that "daft" c64 owners would have never a reason to think there machine were better. Even programming on the C64 is a whole trickery, without that, SID was never able to play samples, and a game like Turrican has never been... because the machine was too slow to do that with normal programming learned from books... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Slocum Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 All I really meant was to point out that it is not a single Pokey/stock Atari computer. I realize it's relatively easy to add a second one. A lot of times you listen to a SID song in stereo but the player just pans the voices of a single SID chip in stereo. At first, I wasn't sure whether or not that's what they were doing here too (although it did sound like two chips.) After doing a little reading I confirmed that it is two chips. If the programmers on the ATARI had been 1/2 smart they would have taken as much effort as programmers did on C64, there would have been since 1983 Music like made with the Raster Music Tracker, without a second POKEY I agree that the POKEY has a lot of undeveloped potential (I've done a lot of TIA music programming which is basically half a POKEY) The Atari computers had great programmers, but I think the problem is that the majority of the programmers who were best at music were attracted to the SID. The SID really is a little more geared for music with full 16-bit pitch all the time and the nice filters and stuff. It's kind of annoying to do that stuff on the POKEY since you have to lose voices. I think comparing the SID and POKEY is like comparing apples and oranges. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. The SID has a slightly fatter bass sound, an awesome filter, and ADSR. The POKEY has much less tinny-sounding highs, the ability to do four voices, and some really cool unusual sounds that you won't find anywhere else. I think that's the main strength of the POKEY and TIA: their usual sound types/waveforms. If they just had a square, saw, and noise, they'd be crap. And I think the biggest mistake on the POKEY was not including 16-bit pitch on all 4 voices. -Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 @Paul Slocum > The SID really is a little more geared for music with full 16-bit pitch all the time and the nice filters and stuff. It's kind of annoying to do that stuff on the POKEY since you have to lose voices. The SID was a soundchip, that capabilities are clear defined from the beginning... The SIDs sound-color is made with an electronic circuit on the board. For special effects the channels have to be combined too. The clue ist, that no music on this world needs all channels and all functions of the soundchip in one time..... >I agree that the POKEY has a lot of undeveloped potential (I've done a lot of TIA music programming which is basically half a POKEY) The Atari computers had great programmers, but I think the problem is that the majority of the programmers who were best at music were attracted to the SID. Raster Music Tracker is the first Tracker in that a musician is able to think like a musician and knows the capabilities of the sound-hardware from the beginning. It is the first Tracker that is changing the AUDCTL register while playing.... and that after 20 Years after the XL appeared with a Tracker on the PC... shall I tell more about good programmers on the ATARI 8-Bit ? Try to rethink: With a tracker like the RMT and the real capability of the POKEY and the speed of the XLs CPU, you would have Music in a quality between C64 and AMIGA in 1983 already! The POKEY has 16Bit Soundchannels with filtering... The POKEY has filters for all channels The POKEY has 4 real channels and the hardware-ability to play samples. The 8-Bit channels made it easyer to create effects with lesser CPU usage The 4-Bit volume saved Memory while sampling. While joining channel 1 and 2 it is possible to play a sample on channel 1 without interfering channel 2.... same with channel 3 and 4.... Changing between 8 and 16 Bit gives the music played by POKEY more color. Changing the filters while playing a note gives real synthesizer effects... And all , exept the sampling, is possible with a very small CPU-Usage. And if games are made the way like they are made already between 1983 and 1990, it were no Problem to play Drum-samples by interrupts while ingame... and the CPU was happy to have something to do The functions of the SID have even to be regulated by CPU Power, and in the fact that more registers are using more CPU-time (16Bit are still doubling the usage) the Ingame Tracks are mostly weaker than the Title Tracks on the C64. All the programmers had to do, was to create a Music editor on the XL with the ability to switch AUDCTL while playing music and to precalculate the usage of the POKEY settings, to get the full capability of the POKEY within the, in its time powerfull, ATARI XL. But, that didn't ever happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 The release of the C64 basically ended all real 'tuning' of the XL line. EA declared the XL a pirate machine and most developers went to the C64 and Apple II line Only in the 90's when the Polish scene took to the XL/XE's did the real magic start to reappear. Just my $0.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 EA declared the XL a pirate machine... That happend to all classic Computers when the Software didn't sell.... As I wrote ... ATARI gave their 8-Bit line great computing hardware, but the "Machine to Human" Interfaces like the GTIA and the electronic circuit for Sound are not usable on a Hires Monitor and a big STEREO... Most users went to get a computer with better Interfaces/Arrays. The ATARI incl. 130XE was made to use on a NTSC TV. But ATARI forgot, that there is better technique availabe, when finishing the XL and later the XE. So the small ATARI had lost anyway and its computing capabilities are never really used. Until today ....?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 18, 2003 Author Share Posted January 18, 2003 The release of the C64 basically ended all real 'tuning' of the XL line. EA declared the XL a pirate machine and most developers went to the C64 and Apple II line Did they really do this? As if there was no piracy on the Apple II or Commodore 64!! Virtually everyone I know who had an 8-bit machine, whether it was from Apple, Atari, or Commodore, was a big pirate back then, so it's interesting that they would single out Atari. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 The release of the C64 basically ended all real 'tuning' of the XL line. EA declared the XL a pirate machine and most developers went to the C64 and Apple II line Did they really do this? As if there was no piracy on the Apple II or Commodore 64!! Virtually everyone I know who had an 8-bit machine, whether it was from Apple, Atari, or Commodore, was a big pirate back then, so it's interesting that they would single out Atari. ..Al I bought more than 200 Games for the XL, some from UK or US directly, because in our stores were nothing to buy. The XL was the first homecomputer wich was declared as a pirate machine, because the software didn't give the used profit. Contrary to the XL/XEs desease, some softwarehouses made their best to sell games on the AMIGA. Thalion built "Lethal Xcess" and didn't get enough profit, so it was their last do on the AMIGA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 The XL/XE line was the first to get tagged a pirate machine - Didnt help that Lucasfilm games were being released into the BBS world right from Atari's internal board................ After that declaration most EA games for the Atari were pure crap and quick conversions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Slocum Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 and in the fact that more registers are using more CPU-time (16Bit are still doubling the usage) But also the SID's built in ADSR saves a lot of CPU time too. All the programmers had to do, was to create a Music editor on the XL with the ability to switch AUDCTL while playing music I've been planning to write a Pokey driver and I was going to include that feature. I'm surprised no one did in the 80's. Based on the music I've heard in the archive, it sounds like a lot of drivers don't even allow the music to change AUDCx while playing. On my TIA driver I allow you to change it on every note. (You kinda have to when you only have 2 voices!) Here's one of my recent TIA songs: starfire.mp3 -Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 and in the fact that more registers are using more CPU-time (16Bit are still doubling the usage) But also the SID's built in ADSR saves a lot of CPU time too. As long as the ADSR is flexible enough! To get more variations, manipulation with the CPU is needet. (AUDCTL) To gain the best effects, the filters have to be changeable in every step of the Runtime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Paul, That tune is great, what a wonderful demo of just how good TIA can be - I wish the track was longer sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 steve, have you checked this http://www.infos.cz/raster/atari/rmt/rmt.htm hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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