Adventure II 5200 talk

[+Cafeman]

I suppose I will address this here. Nice new forum!

 

If anybody could help me out with some general Adventure thoughts, I'd appreciate it. I want to keep certain things the same in this 5200 update, but I'm really not an expert on the original in many ways.

 

For example, the three dragons. I believe that each may have slightly different behavior, yet I can't explain what that is. Anybody want to summarize what exactly is different about the three? Like, why is Rhindle the most ferocious of all? (other than he is!)

 

It seems to me that you can bump into a dragon 2 times, and its only counted as a bite. The 3rd time you are eaten. When you hit reset, it seems that not everything is truly reset in the game -- is this true?

 

I'm wrestling with scope here too. Since I can build a bigger kingdom, I must be careful not to make it too big. It must be able to be beaten in one sitting if you know how! So, how long does it take for you guys to beat Quest 1 2 and 3 usually in Adventure?

 

Any idiosyncrosies (sp?) you'd care to relate?

 

BTW, we originally had Armor in this game, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to axe it.

[Nukey Shay]

The red dragon is slightly faster than the other two and does not pause for very long between "bites" it seems...the yellow dragon wimps out at the sight of the yellow key. That's probably the extent of the differences.

 

And the number of times it bites you is irrelivant...since the ball needs to be in a specific location to be "eaten". This is best demonstrated by pressing downward against a lower wall (the dragon cannot eat the ball).

[Nukey Shay]

Hitting reset during a game simply places the ball back at the yellow castle (changing four bytes...room #, x/y, and object held) and revives any "dead" dragons (one byte for each). All objects remain where they are since the game does not jump back to the initial routine.

[+Cafeman]

I was thinking about having Checkpoints. Not too many, maybe three including the original start. I won't know for sure until the game's map is all programmed and I see for myself how 'long' and difficult it is.

[sku_u]

I was thinking about having Checkpoints. Not too many, maybe three including the original start. I won't know for sure until the game's map is all programmed and I see for myself how 'long' and difficult it is.

 

Checkpoints would be a good idea. It would make a larger maze more feasible to complete.

[+Cafeman]

A couple more theoretical questions for Adventure fans. Remember, this is just to spark conversation and ideas, it doesn't necessarily mean anything concerning Adv II (but it may!).

 

What if Adv II didn't have a 'bridge' concept?

 

What if there was no bat?

 

What if you could choose different icons to be other than a square?

 

What if the most hardy of adventurers stumbled upon duck dragons?

 

What if you peed yourself in fear the first time you met Rhindle?

[moycon]

I think there needs to be a bridge and at least one bat.

They are part of what makes Adaventure...an adventure.

In fact I'd say use the bridge more.

I used to love game three when I found I needed the bridge to complete a game. Otherwise it just sits around.

The bat adds a bit of frustration to the game...sure...but that's part of the fun.

 

As long as you can choose the square... It wouldn't matter what other icons you could choose.

 

I think encountering a "duck" dragon in a new re-vamped Advanture would make me smile. Maybe you could only get to duck dragon world via the bridge.

 

I don't like peeing my pants.

[+Cafeman]

Lately I've been playing more Adventure than ever before, mostly to remember what it's like and to nail down it's essential qualities. Last night I played game #2 twice, beating it once and *almost* beating the 2nd time but it was too late. I think I'm now familiar enough with the world and map, where a couple places used to confuse me a bit.

 

To me, Adventure's gameplay is made up of a rather small 'world' of three kingdoms. It isn't difficult to learn the lay of the land. The challenge of the game is to manage your "inventory" since you can only carry one thing at a time. My priorities when I play are: (1) find the sword, (2) kill the first two dragons, (3) get the gold key and open the gold castle. Sometimes I open the castle before encountering a dragon though. But I have to kill those things first, or else Bat will steal my sword and I'll be defenseless. The first two Castles (gold key and white key I believe) are easily opened.

 

After that, it is a game of outwitting the Bat and getting the key to the last castle. Sometimes items get stuck inside walls, or attach to the magnet on a screen with a dragon, and I must play peekaboo with the Bat to get back the sword, or the bridge. Opening up the third castle, I drag the key, the sword, and maybe the bridge / maybe the magnet in there. But you have to kill the Red dragon , Rhindle first. After he's gone, it's a piece of cake completing the game.

 

On my one game last night, I struggled without the sword or bridge or the black key for a while. The sword got stuck inside a wall, the magnet and bridge guarded by the dragon! Going through the maze before the black castle, I discovered you don't really need the bridge in that maze. I had always believed you needed it before last night, but that was just the way I always played, not mandatory. You do seem to need the bridge inside the white castle and potentially in the black castle. I used the magnet in the black castle though.

 

So the charm of Adventure seems to be get items, kill dragons, and reacting to all the damage that the Bat causes. Game #3 randomizes stuff, correct? So if Adventure didn't have game #3, it would probably end up far more boring it seems, since it's not that large of a world. Randomization turns over the applecart though and makes an infinitely playable adventure game.

 

Thoughts on my assessments of Adventure? I'd like to hear them. I know this forum has many Adv fans.

 

Now, the issue I'm having with the Adv II homebrew is this -- the world is much, much larger. If I were to make the same "rules" as Adventure, I think the game could get unnecessarily tedious. When I say the game is larger, it is not all tedious mazes, however. Some screens are simple to traverse but pretty to look at (erm, in theory , so far).

 

One idea that came up long ago was to not have a bat, but we were going to have Troll (complete with a Troll bridge) that would be the thief. The difference here was that the Troll would always hide stuff in the Green Kingdom Hedge maze, which is kind of in the middle of everything. So if you lost your sword to the Troll, you'd have to trek back/forward to the hedge maze (which, regardless of where you were, is like a hub in the center of the other kingdoms). You wouldn't know where in the hedgemaze it would be, and there is a slow but deadly minotaur who traverses this hedge maze.

 

Lately I've debated with myself if I should just keep good old Bat. Personally, I hate that Bat.

 

I don't think I've ever revealed these ideas to anyone other than our core Trio. Any comments? I'd like to hear them. HellO?!!?!?!

[Nukey Shay]

Troll? LOL You could name it The Knights Who Say "Ni"...especially since it's in the middle of all that shrubbery.

 

[NITPICK]

BTW actually, there is only one area where an object is inaccessable without the bridge (the dot inside the black castle).

 

How to get objects from the white castle's 4th room without the bridge:

Any object can be "warped" (carried 1/2 screen away from your player). Train the bat to fly horizontally trading the magnet and a dead dragon. When the magnet is shown on both edges of the screen, pick it up from the opposite edge (the side that the bat appears from). You can use that to your advantage by standing in the doorway inside the white castle. Wait a few moments, then move up and over a bit to drop the magnet (once you set it down, it will lose it's warp). When you exit the castle, any object that was in that fourth room will be in the portcullis area.

[/NITPICK]

 

...Of course, you could just use the bat itself to get any hidden object for you. This means that the only object that cannot be obtained without the bridge is the dot.

[+Cafeman]

I wasn't aware you could train the bat. How do you do that?

 

I've read (and noticed) that the bat seems to want certain things at certain times. I haven't put enough time into it to understand it. Care to explain?

 

I take it you don't like the TROLL idea then.

[Nukey Shay]

Training the bat:

You already know that the bat will fly directly to an object when it gets "fed up" with it's current object. Once an object is bumped into, it will be picked up. The problem is that when the bat is flying vertically, the object that it sets down will be slightly "off" (lower on the screen by one scanline). Therefore, the bat will always take off at an angle if the object is picked up again. You can prevent this from happening by fixing that scanline problem. If the bat and the object wanted are at exactly the same scanline, the bat will no longer take off at an angle once it is picked up. Here's a simple experiment using keys...

Drop the yellow key below the yellow castle. Make sure that no other objects are on those three screens. Bring the bat (carrying another key) to there. Manuver the bat alongside the yellow key so that the key that it is carrying is even with the bat (this might be impossible the first time...because of the scanline problem. Get it as close as you can). Slide directly over to bump the bat into the other key. For good measure, repeat this before dropping the bat. It will now fly horizontally through those three screens, trading keys as it gets "fed up" with the one it's holding. Once a key appears on both edges of the screen, you can move the bat to another safe area...and return to pick up the object on it's "warped" side to carry it 1/2 screen from the player square.

That's kinda the best that I can describe it...I'll make a picture if this is confusing.

 

"Desired" objects:

The bat has a matrix of all the objects that it can carry. They are arranged in a certian order. Once a given amount of time passes (about 2 1/2 minutes) it will "want" to trade objects. If two or more objects are on the same screen, it will choose the one that is farther up it's "desired" list. This data table can be seen in the disassembly.

[Nukey Shay]

OK I made a picture of the training and warping.

 

In the left section, you can see the bat holding the black key. The yellow key is nearby, but is slightly higher on the screen. If the bat is released, it will fly off at an angle once it picks up the yellow key. Instead...hold onto it and drag the bat onto the key. The objects will be evened up next time.

 

In the right section, the bat is holding the black key. The yellow key is lined up with the object that the bat is holding. If you released the bat...it would fly directly horizontal to the object and not fly off at an angle once it's released. In this manner, you can have the bat locked into a horizontal flight.

 

In the bottom section, you can see the white key which has been "warped" by the bat continually trading objects. The bat must be flying left-to-right for this to happen. If you pick it up from the left side, it will be carried 1/2 screen away from the hero.

[+Cafeman]

Okay, I get what yer saying.

 

I noticed that 'warp' of objects last night -- I did it with the bridge. Half screen-away -- strange. Not sure how that occurs given it's probably the same Player being used. I assume this is a minor glitch, the warping, that ended up actually making the game more interesting?

[Nukey Shay]

I'm not exactly sure why the kernal allows the P/M object to be displayed on both sides of the screen...but I do understand why it has the effect it does when the object is picked up.

 

When the ball sprite bumps into the player object, a collision is registered. The player object # is transferred into the "held" variable, and it's x/y is recalculated to be relative to the ball sprite. Since the ball sprite is on the opposite side of the screen, this makes the x calculation a -bit- off

[DEBRO]

I take it you don't like the TROLL idea then.

 

I love the TROLL idea. I guess I need to log into the discussion more often or at least once, huh

[+Cafeman]

Yes Dennis, nobody of the Square FOUR-o (previously Trio) has anything to say anymore, so I have taken the discussion to the public. Shame! Shame!

[DEBRO]

Yes Dennis, nobody of the Square FOUR-o (previously Trio) has anything to say anymore, so I have taken the discussion to the public. Shame! Shame!  

 

...hanging head low...

[moycon]

I definately like the troll idea... And the bat too. The troll could drop his stuff in the hedge maze... The bat..as usual,carry it along with him.

Good stuff Cafeman.

 

I think the game would get boring without creatures stealing your inventory. That's one of the reasons Dark Chambers is so boring. Its fun to find the stuff...But once you got them, they are never stolen or destroyed so there is no reason to pick them up or search for them.

Once the dragons are killed there would be no creatures to interact with... if the bat was gone. Part of the fun is trying to "out-wit" the bat. (IE:Offer him something you don't want, try to get the object you want off screen, lock him in a castle etc...)

 

The troll sounds fun.... Minotaur too.

[LunaticSX]

How about a single added room that's a dragon's "lair" kind of place, but not for a treasure hoard--for dragon eggs! After you kill a dragon one of the eggs will start to mature and eventually hatch, to replace the dead dragon.

 

Of course, due to the limited ecology of the Adventure world, it can only support a set number of living dragons at a time.

 

With this the game would keep a bit more of a challenge, rather than degrading to just "outwit/avoid the bat after killing the last dragon."

 

It might be nice to have some (preferably hidden or non-obvious) way to either keep the eggs from hatching or otherwise keep the newly born dragons out of your hair if you really WANT to just spend a lot of time exploring, though. The too-obvious way is to put the dragon hatchery room inside a castle and allow the player to lock the castle and keep the dragons inside. Better ideas might be that if you place a particular object inside the dragon room it will keep the eggs from hatching, or perhaps putting the sword inside the first room of the dragon's room castle will keep the dragons from entering that room, and thus leaving the castle. I like the "particular object will keep the eggs from hatching" idea better, myself.

 

Following from that, and this may be going overboard, but perhaps there could be another room that's a cave, with stalactites and stalacmites, where if you take the bat there he will fly up to a stalactite and go to sleep. Perhaps the same object would be required to be left in that room to make the bat sleep as would be required in the dragon room to keep the eggs from hatching. That way, you could keep one hazard at bay, but you'd still have to deal with the other one.

 

As for the object to keep the eggs from hatching or to make the bat sleep... the chalice itself is one possibility. Otherwise: perhaps some kind of smoking brazier? I'd thought maybe a lantern, but that wouldn't make much sense as the light from a lantern would wake a bat UP, rather than make him sleep. The smoke from a smoldering "magic" brazier could explain both effects, though.

 

-= Lunatic

[Nukey Shay]

You don't really need a "nursery" of sorts...you can just make it so that the sword does not kill dragons, it just stuns them for awhile. And if you wanted to insure that dragons would not follow you after (nursery or no), just place a coveted object in the same room with them (like the white key->red dragon).

Day/night transitions might make the game a bit more interesting. Say part of the kingdom is day while another part is night...and then they switch, while the caves are always dark. This can be easily accomplished by keeping rooms of one "hemisphere" grouped together, and just kill all the colors if a counter is <128. When it's over that, kill the colors of the other group.

 

BTW the "lamp" angle is not completely illogical, since bats often sleep during the day (when its light out).

[DEBRO]

All of this sounds good and exciting

 

Maybe LunaticSX should be invited to join the Square FOUR-o

[LunaticSX]

You wouldn't get the same feeling of accomplishment if your sword only stunned dragons, though. (:

 

Plus, only stunning dragons in place eliminates the possibility of keeping them all out of action together in one room (unless you can lure them all one at a time to the same killing field/room/mason jar, and that'd be a time consuming PITA).

 

Bats sleep when it's light OUTSIDE, not when there's light inside their own cave. (: In the long tradition of B-movie adventurers, stubling into a cave filled with sleeping bats and swinging your flashlight/lantern around causes them to wake up and fly around so that the women in the party can have another reason to scream.

 

Day/night cycles overall are an interesting idea, but may add unnecessary complexity. One would want to add torches and different game play effects depending on whether it's day or night.

 

Torches give me flashbacks to the awful 2600 Haunted House game where you stumbled around in the dark, using up a quickly dwindling supply of matches. My friends and I never could get anywhere in that game and eventually just gave it up (and frequently went back to playing Adventure .

 

-= Lunatic

[+Cafeman]

Good ideas and I've thought of similar things, too. As of now, I don't have Dragon eggs or a hatchery, but slain dragons will sometimes be reanimated.

 

The day/night idea, I've pondered over as well. As of now, it's not in the design, but there is a dark cavern kind of place with the light effect.

 

One thing I always liked about Atari 2600 games were all the different game options, and I'd like to have many such game variations in Adventure II as well. For example, imagine Games 1 2 and 3 with small kingdom, full kingdom, full randomized kingdom. Then Games 4 5 and 6 might be the same thing but with a variation. Game 7 8 9 same idea with yet another variation.

 

Game Variations may include day & night changes, faster reanimating dragons, smart dragons, etc.

[Nukey Shay]

Options are good :)

 

 

Haunted House awful?? That's a -bit- harsh.

[moycon]

Haunted House is awesome.

 

How bout this. You can kill the dragons, but an evil immortal wizard constantly patrols the entire game. If he come across a dead dragon, he uses his magic powder to bring the dragon back to life as a ZOMBIE DRAGON!! The zombie dragons are 5 times as fast as regular dragons and can't be killed unless you shoot them in the brain... and then... *breathes*

 

 

Ok scratch that.

One thing I didn't like about Adventure was the fact that you could kill the dragon (Very Easily) and that was it. Even if you had to stab them 3 times it would have been funner I think. Like you stab once...it makes the Dying sound *Bllleeeeiiiw* But instead of just dying they retreat, get faster and re-appear coming from somewhere other than where they retreated to, (Like say they left via the top left side of the screen, they would reappear faster from the lower right) to try and eat you again. He comes from the right... But your sword is facing left. You quick drop the sword swing around it and the dragon impales itself!! Making another dying sound *Bllleeeeiiiw* , then retreats again. Getting faster and reappearing from god knows where!! At least this would make it more of a battle.

 

I also like the egg thought.

Once they are getting ready to hatch. An off-site sound forewarns you (Like in Tomax the Barbarian) After the sound go off you have 30 seconds (Or whatever) to get to the cave and destroy the egg. If your not quick enough or not close enough...Then the new dragon hatches.