Medium Bob's Red Sea Crossing Auction on Ebay.

[bennybingo]

I have to agree, to be honest -- the high reserves completely turned me off to the cart. I wasn't a contender anyway, but a reserve not met at $7K or even $5.5K to me is bordering into the territory of what I consider unreasonable greed.

 

Having said that, I am betting the same -- that mediumbob's cart sells, but nagn's does not.

 

I hate to sound like a conspiracy nut, but I gotta say...

 

This smells fishy. It reeks of a set-up. Too many coincides going on here to discount. I don't think the carts are fake...I just think the bidding war going on right now is 100% a team effort, as it seems well planned. The timing is too strange. Red Sea Crossing has been an on-and-off topic for over 5 years, and as soon as nagn2 wants to finally sell, another copy is found???

 

I know folks keep saying that nagn2 shot himself in the foot here, but if both of these carts came from a much larger reserve, then they are BOTH getting away with a ton of money. IMHO, I think that both of these carts came from Steve's box of 100 games he couldn't sell 30+ years ago.

 

After these two carts are sold, and the new owners Wonder007 proposes making a repro cart, Mr. Stack is going to say no (as he has eluded to in the past). This will leave only two known copies of this game in a collector's Wonder007's hands. No repros...no dumped ROM per the copyright holder's wishes.

 

A year or two from now, this whole cycle will start all over again with a couple more carts "magically" showing up at AA's doorstep, in the hands of someone who nobody in the community knows....

 

...or, maybe I should just go to the kitchen now and start molding my tinfoil hat!!!

[Gorfy]

aluminum works better.........

[icemanxp300]

How about if the repro carts are given away for free and a donation was made to thank the person for his time

 

Then you are not "makin profit" off the sale of the game.

[atari181]

Simple answer to all this legal issues is make the repros off shore in another country besides USA.

Cant be sued then.

I looked into this yesterday, and you are exactly right. Spoke with an attorney about this situation. He said that given the situation doing just that would shield you from any problems.

 

Does Put-In Bay count as "off-shore"?

It may, Ill check on that!

[Shawn]

Another thing to check into is that if this game is\was copyrighted at all. Just putting a copyright alt code on your label doesn't make it copyrighted material.

[Shawn]

$7,100 reseve not met? Moses says greed has consumed you.

[icemanxp300]

Another thing to check into is that if this game is\was copyrighted at all. Just putting a copyright alt code on your label doesn't make it copyrighted material.

 

I thought about mentioning this same thing. Odds are it isn't. I thought about looking to see if I could find it, but I have no idea where to start?

[bojay1997]

Another thing to check into is that if this game is\was copyrighted at all. Just putting a copyright alt code on your label doesn't make it copyrighted material.

 

The second a single character of code was entered, it was under copyright. Registration is a formality that has no relevance in this situation.

[Chuck D. Head]

Moses says greed has consumed you.

 

And a biblical flood of additional cartridges shall surely plague your household....

[bennybingo]

Another thing to check into is that if this game is\was copyrighted at all. Just putting a copyright alt code on your label doesn't make it copyrighted material.

 

The second a single character of code was entered, it was under copyright. Registration is a formality that has no relevance in this situation.

edit** Agreed...done

[bojay1997]

Another thing to check into is that if this game is\was copyrighted at all. Just putting a copyright alt code on your label doesn't make it copyrighted material.

 

The second a single character of code was entered, it was under copyright. Registration is a formality that has no relevance in this situation.

Not necessarily true...in a perfect world, maybe. I get what you mean, but the reality is that we are talking about a 30 year old game. There needs to be evidence that Steve actually "authored" the game, coded it, kept ownership of the rights, etc.

 

Consider this scenario...maybe, back in the 80's, the rights to this game were shopped around and the copyright was sold. Does the author still "own" the ability to say anything about repros? Nope. It would be up to the company / person who purchased the rights...even if that company never mass-produced the game.

 

The truth is, none of us really know the status of this cart. There isn't much information on Red Sea Crossing anywhere at all. That's why we were in awe of the magazine ad which was found. It shed a tiny bit of light on the subject for us. Who knows...I would bet that if the author never copyrighted this, as that is an expense to do. If it isn't legally copyright protected, it would be one hell of an uphill battle in court...just trying to establish proof that he actually even wrote Red Sea Crossing 30 years earlier. For everyone's sake, I hope it never even comes to that. I am sure that everyone involved could work out an arrangement in which all parties walk away happy (and with a little bit of coin in their pockets!).

 

It's really not as difficult as you're making it out to be. All he has to do is produce the paperwork for whatever his deal with the publisher was or a cancelled check or some code and then testify as to how and when he wrote the code. The burden of proof in a civil case is more likely than not, it's not beyond a reasonable doubt or conclusively or any other higher standard. It's not like whoever makes unauthorized copies will have any way to refute anything he says. I agree with you that hopefully there will be a way of working it out, but I would hope that if the author asks the community not to release it that the buyers will respect that wish so it doesn't have to go further. Similarly, I hope that for the enjoyment of the community one of the buyers and the author can reach a deal to release the game in an authorized manner.

[bennybingo]

It's really not as difficult as you're making it out to be. All he has to do is produce the paperwork for whatever his deal with the publisher was or a cancelled check or some code and then testify as to how and when he wrote the code. The burden of proof in a civil case is more likely than not, it's not beyond a reasonable doubt or conclusively or any other higher standard. It's not like whoever makes unauthorized copies will have any way to refute anything he says. I agree with you that hopefully there will be a way of working it out, but I would hope that if the author asks the community not to release it that the buyers will respect that wish so it doesn't have to go further. Similarly, I hope that for the enjoyment of the community one of the buyers and the author can reach a deal to release the game in an authorized manner.

 

***nevermind...agreed. done

[icemanxp300]

LOL.... If all I had to worry about was someone finding a receipt from 30 years ago.... well I think I'd take my chances.

[accousticguitar]

I hate to sound like a conspiracy nut, but I gotta say...

 

This smells fishy. It reeks of a set-up. Too many coincides going on here to discount. I don't think the carts are fake...I just think the bidding war going on right now is 100% a team effort, as it seems well planned. The timing is too strange. Red Sea Crossing has been an on-and-off topic for over 5 years, and as soon as nagn2 wants to finally sell, another copy is found???

 

I know folks keep saying that nagn2 shot himself in the foot here, but if both of these carts came from a much larger reserve, then they are BOTH getting away with a ton of money. IMHO, I think that both of these carts came from Steve's box of 100 games he couldn't sell 30+ years ago.

 

After these two carts are sold, and the new owners Wonder007 proposes making a repro cart, Mr. Stack is going to say no (as he has eluded to in the past). This will leave only two known copies of this game in a collector's Wonder007's hands. No repros...no dumped ROM per the copyright holder's wishes.

 

A year or two from now, this whole cycle will start all over again with a couple more carts "magically" showing up at AA's doorstep, in the hands of someone who nobody in the community knows....

 

...or, maybe I should just go to the kitchen now and start molding my tinfoil hat!!!

I was thinking the same thing when it turned out both carts are magically reserved at an astronomical price. Even if I had the money to bid on this I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

[Miss 2600]

I have to agree, to be honest -- the high reserves completely turned me off to the cart. I wasn't a contender anyway, but a reserve not met at $7K or even $5.5K to me is bordering into the territory of what I consider unreasonable greed.

 

Having said that, I am betting the same -- that mediumbob's cart sells, but nagn's does not.

 

Just curious what you guys think (I know the answer won't be the same for everyone). How much more do you think Medium Bob's cartridge is worth based on the better label? Say nagn2's reserve is $6,500. I don't know if it is, that is just my guess. Obviously Medium Bob's reserve is higher than that by at least $600. I guess, if you have the kind of money to bid that much on a cartridge, a few hundred dollars isn't much, but, there must be a point where the better label premium is no longer worth it.

[icemanxp300]

I personally think these carts are overpriced right now. Then again I'm not really a homebrew collector so I can't really chime in too much. I will use something like Nintendo world championships as a comparison (in my mind) instead. I'm gonna say if medium bobs sells for10k then nagn2 should be worth around 9k. Basically like a 10% difference in carts.

Edited September 9, 2012 by icemanxp300

[potatohead]

This is poetic given the earlier discussion. Basic lesson there. When it's hot, and you want to sell, do it.

[Dino]

With all due respect, gentlemen, I want to clarify one issue: A C&D is not required by law as a step prior to lawsuit. A C&D is used as an intermediary means to prevent an individual from continuing an action that is infringing or against a plaintiff's wishes, and it's generally used in situations in which a lawsuit is not seen as the best solution or when a lawsuit is seen as more costly than simply typing up a letter. If the defendant in the situation is likely to follow the cease & desist, and the plaintiff does not need damages but only wants an action to cease, a C&D letter is considered the best option possible.

 

However, it is not a required intermediary step before the case goes to court, and if the plaintiff chooses, the plaintiff can immediately go to subpoena. It seems that you're insinuating that nothing can be done until a C&D is issued, which is not the case at all. If Mr. Schustack decided to go directly to court over reproduction carts, he has every right to do so, and does not need to send a C&D prior to. In fact, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Mr. Schustack wouldn't even send a C&D, because when viewed in light of certain factors (stated below), it makes poor economic sense to simply send a C&D. It would likely go straight to court.

 

As Crazy Climber states, the reproduction run of carts will likely not be very large, and given the usual amount of reproduction carts sold, it is likely that the run would not exceed the small claims court limit for most states in the United States. Even if the original cart sells for over the small claims court limit, it is a hard argument to state that reproductions have devalued Mr. Schustack's "brand" in a level beyond the $5,000 - $10,000 that is the upper limit for small claims court, given several factors such as the age of the work, the small number of the work in existence, and the fact that the work has not been actively used or engaged in for such a long time (despite the work being still well within copyright standards, judges do consider the fact that an individual hasn't done more than let inventory sit in an attic for 20+ years). This is a double-edged sword, as it means that Mr. Schustack can very easily pursue damages in court without the hoops necessary to jump through in order to get a case to court. This also means that he need not have attorney representation, which makes it second-fold even easier for him to pursue legal avenues, which granted, would be limited to court fees in addition to whatever devaluation of the "brand" is considered.

 

The other side of this, though, means that those wanting to make a repro are more likely to take that gamble, and it is unlikely that the court would require and follow-up that all copies already made be destroyed. The defendant would pay whatever sum in small claims court required plus legal fees, and would be required to cease creating reproductions.

 

The big question in this instance would be what 'damages' would be incurred and decided upon by the guy in the black robe, and to be honest, I can't see said damages being much (but then again, I have a bit of vested interest in repros, since I'm a collector myself) -- certainly not the amount of these cart sales. It is reasonable to assume that the valuation of the carts would go downhill with more in the 'pipeline', so to speak, and if one were a defendant in the case, one could easily point to any number of repro sales in the past to get to a total that would be on offer for damages. Anyone going into something like this seeking hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars would pretty quickly learn that the amount they want would be completely out of the question in a court of law.

 

How the court would come to the number would be as follows: Utilize the initial cart sale of whatever these end up at, then look to sales after reproductions (if any exist). If they can go this route, and the repro can be proven to directly be a cause for the lesser sales, damages would be whatever the DIFFERENCE between the two is. Surely this would not be more than $2.5k or so at maximum. There's a lot of hoops to jump through to even get to that point to begin with, and without post-repro sales to indicate how the valuation has gone down, you enter very vague territory in which the court generally can decide for itself what devaluation entitles. A plaintiff is not eligible for full damages in a devaluation case -- they are only eligible for damages equal to what the devaluation would be in order to 'get them' to full value of existing sales.

 

Now, granted, the plaintiff would likely utilize the eBay and GG sales of these two carts as some sort of baseline, but the defendant could easily state that due to the nature of collecting, the baseline is more of a ceiling than any sort of real indication of price. It would be up to the court to decide whether a cart sale for $10k or so (provided it goes that high) is indicative of a significant enough monetary amount to move beyond small claims court.

 

Nice text book answers. The reality is that there will be no High Court case here, or even a Supreme Court case. Do you have ANY idea what it would cost to make an application to be heard by a Supreme Court or to have a case heard there? To fight a copyright case through the courts would require a very experience barrister representating you, preferrably silk. Not only that, but courts do not award full costs to parties. Given at best there's around $20k of revenue at stake ($10k of profit at best) and out of pocket legal representation AFTER costs are awarded would be in the vicinity of $100k, is a no-brainer. So the most that will happen here is a C&D, unless as I said earlier, Steve had VERY deep pockets and principles

[SoulBlazer]

This is amazing. One copy at $5500, another at $7100, and neither reserve met yet.

 

I am SO tempted to make a bid or two to just find out what the damn reserve is!

[Cebus Capucinis]

With all due respect, gentlemen, I want to clarify one issue: A C&D is not required by law as a step prior to lawsuit. A C&D is used as an intermediary means to prevent an individual from continuing an action that is infringing or against a plaintiff's wishes, and it's generally used in situations in which a lawsuit is not seen as the best solution or when a lawsuit is seen as more costly than simply typing up a letter. If the defendant in the situation is likely to follow the cease & desist, and the plaintiff does not need damages but only wants an action to cease, a C&D letter is considered the best option possible.

 

However, it is not a required intermediary step before the case goes to court, and if the plaintiff chooses, the plaintiff can immediately go to subpoena. It seems that you're insinuating that nothing can be done until a C&D is issued, which is not the case at all. If Mr. Schustack decided to go directly to court over reproduction carts, he has every right to do so, and does not need to send a C&D prior to. In fact, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Mr. Schustack wouldn't even send a C&D, because when viewed in light of certain factors (stated below), it makes poor economic sense to simply send a C&D. It would likely go straight to court.

 

As Crazy Climber states, the reproduction run of carts will likely not be very large, and given the usual amount of reproduction carts sold, it is likely that the run would not exceed the small claims court limit for most states in the United States. Even if the original cart sells for over the small claims court limit, it is a hard argument to state that reproductions have devalued Mr. Schustack's "brand" in a level beyond the $5,000 - $10,000 that is the upper limit for small claims court, given several factors such as the age of the work, the small number of the work in existence, and the fact that the work has not been actively used or engaged in for such a long time (despite the work being still well within copyright standards, judges do consider the fact that an individual hasn't done more than let inventory sit in an attic for 20+ years). This is a double-edged sword, as it means that Mr. Schustack can very easily pursue damages in court without the hoops necessary to jump through in order to get a case to court. This also means that he need not have attorney representation, which makes it second-fold even easier for him to pursue legal avenues, which granted, would be limited to court fees in addition to whatever devaluation of the "brand" is considered.

 

The other side of this, though, means that those wanting to make a repro are more likely to take that gamble, and it is unlikely that the court would require and follow-up that all copies already made be destroyed. The defendant would pay whatever sum in small claims court required plus legal fees, and would be required to cease creating reproductions.

 

The big question in this instance would be what 'damages' would be incurred and decided upon by the guy in the black robe, and to be honest, I can't see said damages being much (but then again, I have a bit of vested interest in repros, since I'm a collector myself) -- certainly not the amount of these cart sales. It is reasonable to assume that the valuation of the carts would go downhill with more in the 'pipeline', so to speak, and if one were a defendant in the case, one could easily point to any number of repro sales in the past to get to a total that would be on offer for damages. Anyone going into something like this seeking hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars would pretty quickly learn that the amount they want would be completely out of the question in a court of law.

 

How the court would come to the number would be as follows: Utilize the initial cart sale of whatever these end up at, then look to sales after reproductions (if any exist). If they can go this route, and the repro can be proven to directly be a cause for the lesser sales, damages would be whatever the DIFFERENCE between the two is. Surely this would not be more than $2.5k or so at maximum. There's a lot of hoops to jump through to even get to that point to begin with, and without post-repro sales to indicate how the valuation has gone down, you enter very vague territory in which the court generally can decide for itself what devaluation entitles. A plaintiff is not eligible for full damages in a devaluation case -- they are only eligible for damages equal to what the devaluation would be in order to 'get them' to full value of existing sales.

 

Now, granted, the plaintiff would likely utilize the eBay and GG sales of these two carts as some sort of baseline, but the defendant could easily state that due to the nature of collecting, the baseline is more of a ceiling than any sort of real indication of price. It would be up to the court to decide whether a cart sale for $10k or so (provided it goes that high) is indicative of a significant enough monetary amount to move beyond small claims court.

 

Nice text book answers. The reality is that there will be no High Court case here, or even a Supreme Court case. Do you have ANY idea what it would cost to make an application to be heard by a Supreme Court or to have a case heard there? To fight a copyright case through the courts would require a very experience barrister representating you, preferrably silk. Not only that, but courts do not award full costs to parties. Given at best there's around $20k of revenue at stake ($10k of profit at best) and out of pocket legal representation AFTER costs are awarded would be in the vicinity of $100k, is a no-brainer. So the most that will happen here is a C&D, unless as I said earlier, Steve had VERY deep pockets and principles

 

.......which was exactly what I just said.......I am incredibly confused by your response. Small claims court in the United States is not even remotely close to a high court or a Supreme court, in fact the small claims court is the lowest court in the USA, not even requiring legal representation in the form of an attorney. It is designed for small claims, usually less than $10k, to be heard without incurring massive legal expenses. All that is required in a small claims case, which goes before a small claims judge (no jury) is court fees to be paid.

 

I'm curious as to how exactly you are disagreeing with what I posted (or at least seem to be, but perhaps I am reading it wrong), when aside from your claim that there will be "at most" a C&D you're saying something exactly in parallel with my assessment.

[bennybingo]

.......which was exactly what I just said.......I am incredibly confused by your response.

We are all going to be confused when we find out that a couple guys just sold 2 games for $15k to $20k total, only to learn:

 

a.) the game at auction was coded sometime in 2006

b.) the game at auction was coded back in the 80's, but Steve Stack is ready to release the 100+ more copies in his garage!

 

[homerwannabee]

I am starting to think the better label guy has no intention on selling his game, and is only listing his on Ebay to screw with Nagn's auction. $7500, and still a reserve.

Edited September 9, 2012 by homerwannabee

[Cebus Capucinis]

Watch, someone's gonna dump it and find out it's coded in batari Basic! LMFAO

[accousticguitar]

I am starting to think the better label guy has no intention on selling his game, and is only listing his on Ebay to screw with Nagn's auction. $7500, and still a reserve.

I predict the reserve will not be met on either auction and the games go back into the closet.

[Dino]

With all due respect, gentlemen, I want to clarify one issue: A C&D is not required by law as a step prior to lawsuit. A C&D is used as an intermediary means to prevent an individual from continuing an action that is infringing or against a plaintiff's wishes, and it's generally used in situations in which a lawsuit is not seen as the best solution or when a lawsuit is seen as more costly than simply typing up a letter. If the defendant in the situation is likely to follow the cease & desist, and the plaintiff does not need damages but only wants an action to cease, a C&D letter is considered the best option possible.

 

However, it is not a required intermediary step before the case goes to court, and if the plaintiff chooses, the plaintiff can immediately go to subpoena. It seems that you're insinuating that nothing can be done until a C&D is issued, which is not the case at all. If Mr. Schustack decided to go directly to court over reproduction carts, he has every right to do so, and does not need to send a C&D prior to. In fact, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Mr. Schustack wouldn't even send a C&D, because when viewed in light of certain factors (stated below), it makes poor economic sense to simply send a C&D. It would likely go straight to court.

 

As Crazy Climber states, the reproduction run of carts will likely not be very large, and given the usual amount of reproduction carts sold, it is likely that the run would not exceed the small claims court limit for most states in the United States. Even if the original cart sells for over the small claims court limit, it is a hard argument to state that reproductions have devalued Mr. Schustack's "brand" in a level beyond the $5,000 - $10,000 that is the upper limit for small claims court, given several factors such as the age of the work, the small number of the work in existence, and the fact that the work has not been actively used or engaged in for such a long time (despite the work being still well within copyright standards, judges do consider the fact that an individual hasn't done more than let inventory sit in an attic for 20+ years). This is a double-edged sword, as it means that Mr. Schustack can very easily pursue damages in court without the hoops necessary to jump through in order to get a case to court. This also means that he need not have attorney representation, which makes it second-fold even easier for him to pursue legal avenues, which granted, would be limited to court fees in addition to whatever devaluation of the "brand" is considered.

 

The other side of this, though, means that those wanting to make a repro are more likely to take that gamble, and it is unlikely that the court would require and follow-up that all copies already made be destroyed. The defendant would pay whatever sum in small claims court required plus legal fees, and would be required to cease creating reproductions.

 

The big question in this instance would be what 'damages' would be incurred and decided upon by the guy in the black robe, and to be honest, I can't see said damages being much (but then again, I have a bit of vested interest in repros, since I'm a collector myself) -- certainly not the amount of these cart sales. It is reasonable to assume that the valuation of the carts would go downhill with more in the 'pipeline', so to speak, and if one were a defendant in the case, one could easily point to any number of repro sales in the past to get to a total that would be on offer for damages. Anyone going into something like this seeking hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars would pretty quickly learn that the amount they want would be completely out of the question in a court of law.

 

How the court would come to the number would be as follows: Utilize the initial cart sale of whatever these end up at, then look to sales after reproductions (if any exist). If they can go this route, and the repro can be proven to directly be a cause for the lesser sales, damages would be whatever the DIFFERENCE between the two is. Surely this would not be more than $2.5k or so at maximum. There's a lot of hoops to jump through to even get to that point to begin with, and without post-repro sales to indicate how the valuation has gone down, you enter very vague territory in which the court generally can decide for itself what devaluation entitles. A plaintiff is not eligible for full damages in a devaluation case -- they are only eligible for damages equal to what the devaluation would be in order to 'get them' to full value of existing sales.

 

Now, granted, the plaintiff would likely utilize the eBay and GG sales of these two carts as some sort of baseline, but the defendant could easily state that due to the nature of collecting, the baseline is more of a ceiling than any sort of real indication of price. It would be up to the court to decide whether a cart sale for $10k or so (provided it goes that high) is indicative of a significant enough monetary amount to move beyond small claims court.

 

Nice text book answers. The reality is that there will be no High Court case here, or even a Supreme Court case. Do you have ANY idea what it would cost to make an application to be heard by a Supreme Court or to have a case heard there? To fight a copyright case through the courts would require a very experience barrister representating you, preferrably silk. Not only that, but courts do not award full costs to parties. Given at best there's around $20k of revenue at stake ($10k of profit at best) and out of pocket legal representation AFTER costs are awarded would be in the vicinity of $100k, is a no-brainer. So the most that will happen here is a C&D, unless as I said earlier, Steve had VERY deep pockets and principles

 

.......which was exactly what I just said.......I am incredibly confused by your response. Small claims court in the United States is not even remotely close to a high court or a Supreme court, in fact the small claims court is the lowest court in the USA, not even requiring legal representation in the form of an attorney. It is designed for small claims, usually less than $10k, to be heard without incurring massive legal expenses. All that is required in a small claims case, which goes before a small claims judge (no jury) is court fees to be paid.

 

I'm curious as to how exactly you are disagreeing with what I posted (or at least seem to be, but perhaps I am reading it wrong), when aside from your claim that there will be "at most" a C&D you're saying something exactly in parallel with my assessment.

 

My point was you wont get a subpeona from a small claims tribunal, as you stated, so you would need to go to a court. so you are left with a C&D. If you decide to go to a small claims tribunal, you wont be in a position to represent yourself in a copyright matter. You will STILL need an experienced lawyer to represent you if you want any chance of winning. It will still cost you $50k-$100k in legal representation in a matter like this and legal fees are paid by the parties in small claims matters.