+Lee Stewart Posted June 14 Author Share Posted June 14 5 hours ago, Switch1995 said: @Lee Stewart Congrats on this release! I have a copy of fbForth 3.0 cartridge on order. One suggestion that you could take or leave: I really like how @matthew180 used a simple BASIC program to help teach Assembly in his thread. Your manual (2.0) has sections 6.2 Graphics Words; 6.3 Color Changes; 6.4 Placing Characters on the Screen; 6.5 Defining New Characters; 6.6 Sprites; 6.8 Using Joysticks; etc. What would be really cool would be a VERY simple demo program tying all of these concepts together that the reader could type in/ learn from. A Forth game loop shell…. That is a good Idea. I have a lot of corrections and additions to the manual to get through before I get sidetracked with a running example, but I like the idea. I said, “running example,” but, perhaps, you had another idea, such as a separate section devoted to an example game. Both are eminently doable. We need plans to guide such a project. ...lee 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switch1995 Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 5 hours ago, Lee Stewart said: I said, “running example,” but, perhaps, you had another idea, such as a separate section devoted to an example game. Both are eminently doable Either would work. I was imagining a Minimal Viable Product to tie a bunch of concepts together quickly. For example: 2 sprites appear on screen. Enemy sprite set in motion. Player uses joystick to ram his sprite into enemy. Sound. Enemy randomly reappears in a different color. Loop. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Lee Stewart Posted June 27 Author Share Posted June 27 I am trying to come up with a slightly different subtitle for the fbForth 3.0 manual. The one for fbForth 2.0 is “A File-Based Cartridge Implementation of TI Forth”. Some ideas are “An Upgraded File-Based Cartridge Implementation of TI Forth” “A File-Based Cartridge Implementation of TI Forth (fbForth 2.0 Upgrade)” “A File-Based Cartridge Implementation of TI Forth (Upgraded from fbForth 2.0)” “A File-Based Cartridge Implementation of TI Forth (Upgrade of fbForth 2.0)” “A Revised File-Based Cartridge Implementation of TI Forth” “A File-Based Cartridge Implementation of TI Forth (fbForth 2.0 Revision)” “A File-Based Cartridge Implementation of TI Forth (Revised from fbForth 2.0)” “A File-Based Cartridge Implementation of TI Forth (Revision of fbForth 2.0)” Preference? Ideas? ...lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TheBF Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 If the title says FbForth 3.0 I don't think you need "(revision of fbForth 2.0)" That seems redundant. Things that come to mind that seem important to your work in relation to what you started with: It's complete (vs TI FORTH being a prototype) It's in a cartridge It uses native file blocks So this is not too sexy but it weaves those things together. A completed TI FORTH, in a cartridge, with native file blocks completed could be replaced with finalized, finished, "fully realized" <your synonyms here> A fully realized TI FORTH cartridge, with native file blocks My 2 cents. (Canadian) 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Lee Stewart Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 7 hours ago, TheBF said: If the title says FbForth 3.0 I don't think you need "(revision of fbForth 2.0)" That seems redundant. Things that come to mind that seem important to your work in relation to what you started with: It's complete (vs TI FORTH being a prototype) It's in a cartridge It uses native file blocks So this is not too sexy but it weaves those things together. A completed TI FORTH, in a cartridge, with native file blocks completed could be replaced with finalized, finished, "fully realized" <your synonyms here> A fully realized TI FORTH cartridge, with native file blocks My 2 cents. (Canadian) Thanks for your input! I am not sure I agree with TI Forth being incomplete and but a prototype. As far as I know, it was a complete port of figForth, with the addition of words unique to the TI-99/4A—about 300 words in the kernel. fbForth 3.0 has about 520 words in the cartridge kernel and is certainly a dramatic change from TI Forth, with many changes and enhancements and many, many additions (most that TI Forth had to load after the kernel). I like the “native file blocks” part. ...lee 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Vorticon Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 I never noted TI Forth to be incomplete in any way when I used it to program Core War. This was a rather involved project and a good test of the language. Obviously FB Forth is more of an evolution from TI Forth and should be acknowledged as such. IMHO, "A file-based implementation of TI Forth" without the revision part seems the most appropriate. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Lee Stewart Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 31 minutes ago, Vorticon said: I never noted TI Forth to be incomplete in any way when I used it to program Core War. This was a rather involved project and a good test of the language. Obviously FB Forth is more of an evolution from TI Forth and should be acknowledged as such. IMHO, "A file-based implementation of TI Forth" without the revision part seems the most appropriate. Yes, but then it is identical to the subtitle of the fbForth 2.0 manual, with only the "3" of the title different. I am hoping to elaborate the distinction a bit more. ...lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Vorticon Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 1 hour ago, Lee Stewart said: Yes, but then it is identical to the subtitle of the fbForth 2.0 manual, with only the "3" of the title different. I am hoping to elaborate the distinction a bit more. ...lee How about just a sub-label "New & Enhanced Version 3" and leave the details to the back cover of the manual? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TheBF Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 6 hours ago, Vorticon said: I never noted TI Forth to be incomplete in any way when I used it to program Core War. This was a rather involved project and a good test of the language. Obviously FB Forth is more of an evolution from TI Forth and should be acknowledged as such. IMHO, "A file-based implementation of TI Forth" without the revision part seems the most appropriate. Perhaps a better description would be that TI-FORTH was not a finished product whereas FbForth is. Documentation for TI-FORTH was the engineer's text files, at least that is what I received. In terms of the code, the FigForth foundation was solid, but I feel some of the TI-99 extensions looked like "get it working" code that would have been improved for a real product release. But that's just me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 How about this: Version 3.0 of a File-Based Cartridge Implementation of TI Forth 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FarmerPotato Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 9 hours ago, TheBF said: Perhaps a better description would be that TI-FORTH was not a finished product whereas FbForth is. Documentation for TI-FORTH was the engineer's text files, at least that is what I received. In terms of the code, the FigForth foundation was solid, but I feel some of the TI-99 extensions looked like "get it working" code that would have been improved for a real product release. But that's just me. I agree with the "get it working" - the words adapted from BASIC CALLs.. but, it had bitmap, plus bitmap with a text window too! It could draw lines (circles: exercise for the reader!) My documentation was the printed copy that Users Groups received in the TI mailing. It is a really good manual. My copy is dated Oct 30, 1982. Chapter 2 begins: Quote This chapter will familiarize you with the most common words (instructions) in the FORTH Interest Group version of FORTH (fig-FORTH). The purpose is to permit those users that have at least an elementary knowledge of some FORTH Dialect to easily begin to use TI FORTH. Those with no FORTH experience should begin by reading a book such as "Starting FORTH" by Brodie. Appendix C is designed to be used with this particular text and lists differences between the FORTH language described in the book ( poly-FORTH ) and TI FORTH. A word in FORTH is any sequence of characters delimited by blanks or a RETURN. ... It continues with a precise glossary of the vocabulary. It's a pretty good manual, written by Leslie O'Hagan and Leon Tietz. Leon was tapped to join the personal computer effort in March 83. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Lee Stewart Posted July 3 Author Share Posted July 3 Another decision I must make, eventually, is whether to publish this manual in color or, as before, in black and white. I was headed in the color direction until I checked the likely costs. If it stays at 310 pages, the black-and-white version will be $10 – $11 and the color, $23 – $24. That is with no profit to me, which is my intention. The color would mostly be in the screenshots—about 30, I think. If I do go in the color direction, I would make use of color bars in headings, colored cells in tables, and colored text in headings and Forth words. Using a color (blue) for Forth words would allow removal of the non-breaking space between a Forth word and punctuation that peppers the current manual. Personally, I would prefer color, but I don’t wish to create a hardship for folks. As before, I will provide the PDF free of charge. What are your preferences? ...lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyDean Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 8 minutes ago, Lee Stewart said: Another decision I must make, eventually, is whether to publish this manual in color or, as before, in black and white. I was headed in the color direction until I checked the likely costs. If it stays at 310 pages, the black-and-white version will be $10 – $11 and the color, $23 – $24. That is with no profit to me, which is my intention. The color would mostly be in the screenshots—about 30, I think. If I do go in the color direction, I would make use of color bars in headings, colored cells in tables, and colored text in headings and Forth words. Using a color (blue) for Forth words would allow removal of the non-breaking space between a Forth word and punctuation that peppers the current manual. Personally, I would prefer color, but I don’t wish to create a hardship for folks. As before, I will provide the PDF free of charge. What are your preferences? ...lee Color sounds great. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Vorticon Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 I don't think the price difference between B&W and color is that significant to be a substantial access barrier. I vote for color. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TheBF Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 I think, in the 21st century, colour is the way to go especially when one spells it correctly. It's a joke. Ya the screen shots will really look great. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDMike Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 It's definitely cheaper in "color" than "colour'.., Plus it's just right 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 I would go with the color, Lee, mainly because the color Forth words would stand out nicely and help the reader key onto things they really want/need to know for a deeper dive. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DuaneAL Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 Color is better. USA! USA!😁. But seriously, the coloured Forth words would be very helpful. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDMike Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 Humans were built for color since we can associate "colored" words with different meanings, like "color forth" does for the pc. I believe that's the name of the version, But of course in the 1950s they took color away from us and everything was in black and white. 😂 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reciprocating Bill Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 Hmmm, I don't know. More than doubling the price to get color highlights? If this were Forth code, that would be factored right out, for efficiency. I suggest B&W for the printed version and color in the PDF version as a compromise. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+jedimatt42 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 I like the idea of forth words being colored, since many have punctuation characters. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TheBF Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 2 hours ago, jedimatt42 said: I like the idea of forth words being colored, since many have punctuation characters. How about like this? (this feature was first seen in FPC by Tom Zimmer. I ported it to my ANS revision of HSfORTH by the late Jim Kalihan) HsForth coloured words.mp4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Lee Stewart Posted July 4 Author Share Posted July 4 54 minutes ago, TheBF said: How about like this? (this feature was first seen in FPC by Tom Zimmer. I ported it to my ANS revision of HSfORTH by the late Jim Kalihan) HsForth coloured words.mp4 That is really cool! However, I won’t be doing that because it would take way too much effort to properly identify the individual word types. I think it works better while programming, anyway—but, thanks. ...lee 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDMike Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 (edited) I actually use a printed book rather than a PDF myself. But if I wanted it in color couldn't I print it out in color if you created the PDF in color, yeah... And that's what I would do. I would just print it out myself. Edited July 4 by GDMike 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Lee Stewart Posted August 18 Author Share Posted August 18 I am making headway in the fbForth 3.0 manual. I have been working on the glossary appendix, with the addition of new words and formatting now pretty much out of the way. I am finally into reviewing all of the word descriptions. I decided to rewrite the description for +LOOP , but would like feedback as to its clarity. The old description is +LOOP ( n -- ) selectively controls branching back to the corresponding DO based on n, the loop index and the loop limit. The signed increment n is added to the index and the total compared to the limit. The branch back to DO occurs until the new index is equal to or greater than the limit (n > 0), or until the new index is equal to or less than the limit (n < 0). Upon exiting the loop, the parameters are discarded and execution continues ahead. My proposed new description is +LOOP( n -- ) selectively controls branching back to the corresponding DO based on n, the loop index idx, and the loop limit lim. The signed increment n is added to idx and the total compared to lim. The branch back to DO occurs until |idx| ≥ |lim|. Upon exiting the loop, the parameters are discarded and execution continues ahead. ...lee 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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