If Warner held on a little longer

[atari5200dude82]

Not sure if this was a old post or not. But if Warner held on Atari a little longer. Would Atari would made a turn around sooner with the release of the 7800 . Atari , under Warner started to release the 7800 in June 1984. In limited quanties. When Warner sold Atari in July, they stopped the release the 7800 until until 1986. If Warner held on a few months or to the end of the year. Would it made a turn around sooner , or no difference at all. What do you think.

Edited May 3, 2013 by atari5200dude82

[Atarifever]

I think it wouldn't have helped, and might have hurt. If they had released it in earnest, advertised it, sent out piles of games, gotten through a Christmas with a national launch, and then had the slowdown a merger would have caused, I think it would have been worse. I think consumer confidence was shaky enough without a delay between release and new games.

 

Also, my theory will always be that the 7800, SMS, etc. could not win anyway because of Mario. I think that's the whole generation. Super Mario Bros. pushed it to critical mass, and there was nothing anyone could do to beat that game, at that time, in the culture as it existed at that moment, with the market being exactly where it was. It was fully and exactly what was needed to take the market.

[Algus]

I had this weird experience in Gamestop a couple years ago where this kid was asking the guy if there were ever any Mario games for Xbox 360.

 

When I was a kid no one would ever have had to ask that question. Everyone knew Mario was Nintendo. The plumber was freaking king of the world. Even going back and playing the games, watching the cartoons, etc. now isn't the same as being around during those years when he was king and everyone was talking about him.

 

Ahh, I'm getting nostalgic now. SMB was my first video game. I've had some great times with Mario over the years.

 

The 7800 was in for a tough fight regardless. Nintendo launched with a good marketing scheme and solid international support. Even if things hadn't been as shaky for Atari that would have been hard to overcome.

[8th lutz]

I don't think the 7800 would cause Atari to turn around much sooner. The problem lies in how much Atari Inc. was losing at the time and Warner had to sell as a result. The system itself had a solid launch lineup in 1984, but the truth is Atari didn't have anything earth shattering for 7800 that was different than the 5200 or the 2600 in terms of games. That means Atari Inc. had nothing like Super Mario Bros. planned in 1984.

 

The launch titles in 1984 planned were Ms. Pac-man, Pole Position II, Centipede, Joust, Dig Dug, Desert Falcon, Robotron: 2084, Food Fight, Galaga, Xevious, Ballblazer, Rescue on Fractalus! and Track and Field. Atari Also had Asteroids 3-d for the 7800. The launch titles was good, but Asteroids should never been developed because a 1979 arcade game in 1984 isn't a good idea at all.

 

There also is a problem the titles Atari inc. planned for the 7800 after the Launch titles for the 7800. Master part list had similar issues as the launch titles titles. The games I am referring to is Crystal Castles, Millepede, Moon Patrol, Stargate, and Gremlins as Atari 7800. The problem is those games also were released or going to being released for the Atari 2600 and the 5200 also. There also was a report of Elevator Action for the 7800 was supposed to be shown at the 1984 CES show also according to Digital Press.

 

I didn't mention Chopterlifter because that game appear to be on Atari Corp planned for the 7800, not an Atari Inc. title. That meant it isn't clear if Atari Inc. would have planed on gaving Choperlifter as a 7800 game if Warner kept Atari longer.

 

The Arcade devision of Atari had Marble Madness, and Paperboy released in 1984, but It would have been too late for Warner in terms of the 7800. Marble Madness and Paperboy would have been 1985 or 1986 Atari 7800 arcade ports and that meant those games can't help the 7800 in 1984. Tramiel would have bought the home video game and computer game divisions of Atari only in 1985. That meant there was no chance of Marble Madness and Paperboy as Atari 7800 games anyway.

Edited May 3, 2013 by 8th lutz

[Goochman]

Its a problem that haunted Atari past 1982 - they didnt have any new fresh popular games to bring to their system. When the 5200 came out a few new titles appeared but the era of 'rehash' began cause Atari couldnt source popular arcade games.

 

Sega and Nintendo owned this era so the 7800 came out with old arcade games no one wanted to pay for a second time vs the new stuff in the arcades and also on the NES.

[atari5200dude82]

That's probably true. But in my opinion. That if Warner held on in later in 1984, that the 7800 would of took off. If had a full national release by the end of 84. It's also possible the 5200 would of had a longer life span, and new games with it. Especially if Tempest would got released , back then. Maybe newer games for all 3 systems . Who knows , maybe the crash would of turned around by the end of 84. But by 86 Nes would of took over unless ATARI came up with really new and awesome games.

[8th lutz]

That's probably true. But in my opinion. That if Warner held on in later in 1984, that the 7800 would of took off. If had a full national release by the end of 84. It's also possible the 5200 would of had a longer life span, and new games with it. Especially if Tempest would got released , back then. Maybe newer games for all 3 systems . Who knows , maybe the crash would of turned around by the end of 84. But by 86 Nes would of took over unless ATARI came up with really new and awesome games.

The 5200 wasn't going to a longer lifespan. Warner themselves already planned of discontinuing the 5200. Atari Inc. had that plan in May 1984. That meant the system would have been gone After December of 1984. Atari Inc. under Warner already had plans of a 16 bit computer and a more advanced Video system system than the 7800 according to Marty and Curt that Jack Tramiel didn't know about when he aquired the home video game and home computers divisions of Atari.. I think it was the Amiga matter of fact being the more advanced video system. That meant the Amiga was going to replace the 5200 and would have been Atari's 16 bit computer instead of the St also.

 

The only difference would have been more game releases in 1984 for the 5200. That meant Gremlins would have been released in 1984 instead of 1986. Super Pac-Man appeared to be one the games that was worked on past May and that meant that Super Pac-Man was going to be a 1984 game release. Tempest And the Laster Star Fighter was going to be a 1984 release under Warner also.

 

The 5200 also had games completed or near completed by March of 1984, but weren't released such as Final Legacy, Jr. Pac-Man, Stargate, Millipede and Xevious.

Edited May 3, 2013 by 8th lutz

[8th lutz]

The Atari 2600 for 1984 was going to have more games released in 1984 if Warner kept the company through 1984. Garfield, Elevator action, Jr-Pacman (released in 1984 instead of 1987), The last Star Fighter (later known as Solaris) would have released in 1984 at least.

[BassGuitari]

Atari Inc. didn't have the money to pay GCC for the development of the 7800 or its launch games (either that, or they just chose not to pay). Either way, GCC holds onto the 7800 and its games, so the point is moot. Atari Inc. couldn't have released it in 1984 anyway.

 

But supposing they could have, and did, I see a couple of problems:

1.) Consumer confidence in the 5200 is shaken even further. "You just put this thing out two years ago and you're ditching it already?"

1b.) Resources that could been used to improve the 5200 (better controllers, new games, cost-reduced hardware, etc) are siphoned to the 7800.

2.) The games were nothing nothing new, even in 1984. "I just bought these same games for my 800XL and 2600!"

3.) NES would have crushed it within a year or two anyway.

4.) It might have done reasonably well in the brief period before the NES came along, but the 7800 still would not have generated enough revenue to get Atari Inc. out of the deep, deep shit it was in.

 

I'd even argue that the 7800 kind of screwed Atari (both Inc. and Corp.), in hindsight. For one thing, it ensured that the 5200 -which was supposed to be Atari's present flagship console- would never be anything more than a redheaded stepchild, and the resources and money spent on the 7800 left the company unable to develop a console that could actually compete with the NES (or even SMS) on an equal level when the time came. And Jack/Atari Corp. was saddled with it and forced to pay GCC (out of Jack's own pocket) for the now-obsolete system when what they really needed all along was to leapfrog the NES entirely and go with something like a consolized 520ST, which they probably couldn't have afforded to develop at the time. On the other hand, they couldn't afford to sit on all that old stock, either. Regardless, Atari Corp. didn't have an answer to Super Mario Bros., so perhaps it wouldn't have mattered what hardware they had in stores anyway.

 

(The "development" and release of the XEGS is kind of a head-scratcher when they could have done an "STGS" instead. Maybe they just couldn't get a satisfactory product at a competitive price point? Although in the end, it's just as well; there never was an overwhelming amount of ST games stateside anyway, and the way Nintendo locked up third-party console developers would probably have meant a similar -if not more severe- fate for the "STGS.")

 

Or, Atari Inc. could have jumped on Nintendo's proposal back in 1983 to launch the Famicom in the US as an Atari product, and all would be hunky dory.

 

Woulda-Coulda-Shoulda is fun, isn't it?

[8th lutz]

Atari Inc. didn't have the money to pay GCC for the development of the 7800 or its launch games (either that, or they just chose not to pay). Either way, GCC holds onto the 7800 and its games, so the point is moot. Atari Inc. couldn't have released it in 1984 anyway.

 

But supposing they could have, and did, I see a couple of problems:

1.) Consumer confidence in the 5200 is shaken even further. "You just put this thing out two years ago and you're ditching it already?"

1b.) Resources that could been used to improve the 5200 (better controllers, new games, cost-reduced hardware, etc) are siphoned to the 7800.

2.) The games were nothing nothing new, even in 1984. "I just bought these same games for my 800XL and 2600!"

3.) NES would have crushed it within a year or two anyway.

4.) It might have done reasonably well in the brief period before the NES came along, but the 7800 still would not have generated enough revenue to get Atari Inc. out of the deep, deep shit it was in.

 

I'd even argue that the 7800 kind of screwed Atari (both Inc. and Corp.), in hindsight. For one thing, it ensured that the 5200 -which was supposed to be Atari's present flagship console- would never be anything more than a redheaded stepchild, and the resources and money spent on the 7800 left the company unable to develop a console that could actually compete with the NES (or even SMS) on an equal level when the time came. And Jack/Atari Corp. was saddled with it and forced to pay GCC (out of Jack's own pocket) for the now-obsolete system when what they really needed all along was to leapfrog the NES entirely and go with something like a consolized 520ST, which they probably couldn't have afforded to develop at the time. On the other hand, they couldn't afford to sit on all that old stock, either. Regardless, Atari Corp. didn't have an answer to Super Mario Bros., so perhaps it wouldn't have mattered what hardware they had in stores anyway.

 

(The "development" and release of the XEGS is kind of a head-scratcher when they could have done an "STGS" instead. Maybe they just couldn't get a satisfactory product at a competitive price point? Although in the end, it's just as well; there never was an overwhelming amount of ST games stateside anyway, and the way Nintendo locked up third-party console developers would probably have meant a similar -if not more severe- fate for the "STGS.")

 

Or, Atari Inc. could have jumped on Nintendo's proposal back in 1983 to launch the Famicom in the US as an Atari product, and all would be hunky dory.

 

Woulda-Coulda-Shoulda is fun, isn't it?

I don't know if calling the Atari 5200 a flagship to begin with for Atari. It boils to the fact GCC started to work on the 7800 in late 1982 or early 1983. That meant the 5200 was doomed almost from the time it released like the 32x was doomed from the beginning for Sega. Atari Inc. screwing up the 5200 launch didn't help matters that included Super Breakout instead of having Tempest developed as a 1982 Luanch title.

 

Atari 5200 was only developed because the programmers didn't like the Atari 3200. The 2600 was going to 5 years in 1982 and Atari couldn't wait another 2 year to find a true successor to the 2600.

 

The 7800 was going to be released in 1984 based on the fact it was test marketed in California in June 1984 despite GCC stil having the rights of the 7800.

 

I agree the XEGS was a head scratcher.

Edited May 3, 2013 by 8th lutz

[Stun Runner 87]

I believe pokey chips would of been added to the games.

I believe they would of competed better with nintendo.

I believe more releases would of came out for the 7800.

if Jack Tremiel wouldn't have dropped the ball on video games all together(focusing on home computers instead) that the 2nd and 3rd party game makers wouldn't have only made games for nintendo....................

But then agin, maybe I'm wrong........it could of went the other way around.........maybe atari would of completly have been dead by 1985 hence no 7800, no lynx, no jaguar...................who knows.

[8th lutz]

I believe pokey chips would of been added to the games.

I believe they would of competed better with nintendo.

I believe more releases would of came out for the 7800.

if Jack Tremiel wouldn't have dropped the ball on video games all together(focusing on home computers instead) that the 2nd and 3rd party game makers wouldn't have only made games for nintendo....................

But then agin, maybe I'm wrong........it could of went the other way around.........maybe atari would of completly have been dead by 1985 hence no 7800, no lynx, no jaguar...................who knows.

Pokey chip already was planned for Rescue on Fractalus! when Atari Inc. was in charge of Atari. The fact is pokey sound was going to be used for 7800 games, but GCC was doing a cheaper and better sound chip called Gumby for the Atari 7800. The Gumby sound was in research and Development in 1984.

 

You can't say Jack drop the ball on Video games in 1984 because Jack needed to buy the 7800 from GCC. That meant Jack can't attract 3d party developers in 1984 or early 1985 as a result. The Atari 2600 was the only other option, but the problem is trying to attract 3rd party to that system. In 1984 and 1985, the Atari 2600 was very long in the teeth in technology.

[Atarifever]

Or, Atari Inc. could have jumped on Nintendo's proposal back in 1983 to launch the Famicom in the US as an Atari product, and all would be hunky dory.

 

 

Now from what I've read about it, I don't think they would have been hunky-dory after that agreement at all. The deal was very one sided, even if it had been possible to guess that the NES was going to be a huge smash hit. Deals where you give a lot more than you get to the company that wins don't always end up being the best deals. Ask all those old search providers who let Google run their search for them back when google only needed access to as many search results as it could get to work on their algorhythm. Might have been a good deal at the time, but they ended up used up and spit out with no chance to compete with Google's much better product. If anyone thinks that Atari could have kept releasing property for Nintendo (yes, THAT Nintendo) for much longer than that generation is thinking Nintendo is a lot more interested in giving away money than it is.

 

Nintendo would have given them a generation maybe. Why Nintendo would keep the partnership after that is beyond me. Imagine the SNES releases after the "Atari NES." The SNES is from Nintendo while the next Atari is called, say, the Atari-16. Now, imagine you're a kid looking to upgrade to the 16 bit generation. You have the next console from Atari as an option. Except, wait, it doesn't have Mario, or Link, or Metroid this time, and what's this, Mario is in Kart racers now, and Donkey Kong gets his own platformer, and what's a Star Fox. Oh wow. And Atari has a new system that now suddenly doesn't do Mario, or Link, or Donkey Kong, or Kid Iccarus, or half of everything you played last generation.

 

Kids would still have chased Mario, Link, and co to the next console even without an Atari logo, and Nintendo would certainly have been smart enough to see that.

 

Yes, it would have kept the Atari name relevant for awhile longer in consoles, and might have paid out okay to give them a war chest. However, it would also have meant they spent a generation selling people on playing games for another company, with the obvious end game being for them to have the rug pulled out from under them by the same company. They would have lent Nintendo their brand, and ended up just building Nintendo's brand.

[shadow460]

I don't think it would have saved Atari, but had the 7800 been released in 1984, the next two generations of gaming would have looked a little different. I say that partly because the 7800 trumps just about every other system its games have been ported to. Ms Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Asteroids, and DK Jr all come to mind. Despite the sound incapabilities, it's my opinion that, on the 7800, these games are head and shoulders above their respective ports on any other system from that generation.

[Atarifever]

An aside:

Scott (the really techy guy) on Retrogaming Roundup talked about the SNES hardware on their March podcast (while they did a top ten games list for it). He pointed out that the SNES hardware is, in a lot of ways, pretty weak sauce. However, he says it was developed with the idea that as the price of chips and things came down, the carts could be packed with all kinds of extra stuff. He lists games with stuff added while he's doing the list, and a lot of them surprise me (the FX chip isn't the half of it). A TON of SNES games relied on extra stuff being included in them, and they wouldn't have been possible otherwise.

 

He says that it would have been easy for Nintendo's top people to say "you're not getting any extra chips in there" to the programmers. However, their engineers designed the system with the idea that these things could be added to the cart, and the people at the top understood that from the get go, so the SNES ended up with all kinds of extra hardware in the carts, and tons of games they would not have gotten otherwise.

 

I thought it was an interesting parallel to the 7800 and the Pokey chip. The system was designed for it. No one would say the SNES was a weak system, despite games from Super Mario RPG to Yoshi's Island requiring the addition of extra hardware. This despite the system being designed specifically to use new components as the cost came down. Thus, the system was designed weaker than the engineers thought it would eventually need to be. The 7800 on the other hand has one chip left out to be included on carts, and it is often believed to be completely underpowered because of it. Like I said, I thought it was an interesting comparison.

[Greg2600]

Warner had no clue how to run a video game company, and Atari was run by the inmates. It wouldn't have mattered. The rage, and for good reason, was coming out of Japan. Atari had chances to pair with Nintendo and Sega on the NES and Genesis and did not. That would have been the only thing that "might" have changed. Simply using Atari as a distribution arm. It would be 20 years before "western" game designers could catch what was being done in Japan. And Nintendo had pretty much a monopoly on them.

[Atarifever]

Finishing my aside: (Sorry I would have edited, but seem to have missed the time window).

 

A list of chips included in SNES carts, and a pretty good list of those games below (I don't think that list is complete, as I believe some other RPGs use them).

 

http://en.wikipedia....hancement_chips

 

Again, when talk about the 7800 and the Tramiel's mistakes tends toward talk about the Pokey, I think it's pretty neat to be able to see that the Pokey design thing wasn't a bad or crazy idea at all, as the similar design worked out great over at Nintendo.

 

I wish they had gotten more Pokey games out the door. People wouldn't have even realized the 7800 had limited sound if more games had just went and done what they were supposed to. As a kid, outside the Super FX chip commercials, I had no idea everything happening in my SNES (or my NES) wasn't in the hardware. I also wouldn't have cared. If the 7800 games that needed Pokey had gotten it (under Warner or the Tramiels) I think that might have helped them stay a little more relevant. A little anyway.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Atarifever

[Stun Runner 87]

Actually the Pokey would of helped a lot........The music and sound effects makes the gaming experience much better............just saying.

[Retro Rogue]

Warner had no clue how to run a video game company, and Atari was run by the inmates. It wouldn't have mattered. The rage, and for good reason, was coming out of Japan. Atari had chances to pair with Nintendo and Sega on the NES and Genesis and did not.

 

That's a little backwards, and you're also talking about two different companies (Atari Inc. and Atari Corp.) Nintendo had a chance to pair with Atari Inc. and they walked away when it became apparent their ridiculous deadline could not be met because of change in leadership at Atari and a product/dev freeze. Sega had a chance to pair with Atari Corp. and they walked away when Jack wanted world wide (excluding Japan) rights instead of just North America.

 

As for the original question of what would have happened, the 7800 is a small factor in it. What the larger factor would have been was Jim Morgan's planned reorganization of Atari Inc. (think streamlining) into NATCO. Jettisoning non-profitable assets and divisions, and getting rid of half the employees would have given it more of a fighting chance to survive.

 

 

[sqoon]

Ms Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Asteroids, and DK Jr all come to mind. Despite the sound incapabilities, it's my opinion that, on the 7800, these games are head and shoulders above their respective ports on any other system from that generation.

 

Still, by 1984, going into 1985, these were aging IP's. Asteroids was ancient, and DK came out in 1981. NES would have so many new and innovative titles soon, so anything Warner could offer would have merely been a temporary stop-gap at best.

[8th lutz]

Still, by 1984, going into 1985, these were aging IP's. Asteroids was ancient, and DK came out in 1981. NES would have so many new and innovative titles soon, so anything Warner could offer would have merely been a temporary stop-gap at best.

There is a problem. Atari Inc. didn't have DK planed for the 7800. DK was planned by Atari Corp. In 1984, Coleco still had the rights of the DK series and was planning have Donkey Kong III on the Colecovision.

[Retro Rogue]

 

 

Still, by 1984, going into 1985, these were aging IP's. Asteroids was ancient, and DK came out in 1981. NES would have so many new and innovative titles soon, so anything Warner could offer would have merely been a temporary stop-gap at best.

 

Ehh, not so sure about that. Remember, Warner still would have had the coin division,which is where all those popular games came out of. That means that the titles that wound up as Atari Games in coin and Tengen in consumer would have been home titles as well for the 7800 or future Atari consoles.

[toptenmaterial]

The basic underlying problem, as I see it, is that Warner management was woefully inept. And it wasn't just Atari that was suffering, either. The entire umbrella was faring poorly. Although we can look back with distain at some of Atari Corp's decisions, I don't think that there would have been an Atari at all anymore if Warner had held on. Their only alternative (short of sacking a whole bunch of people) would be to close up shop for good.

 

Some positive things happened during the years of Atari Corp. Atari returned to profitability, amazingly.

 

My biggest question is this: when did things start to go south for Atari Corp?

[S1500]

What gets me is the Famicom(ie NES) was released in '83, not too long after the 5200.

 

No, Warner couldn't have changed things with the time adjustment. Atari was playing the same old tune of arcade ports, when we would later see the NES start making games with greater depth for the home market. Sure, the NES had arcade ports, but it wasn't 100% of their software base.

[Atarifever]

What gets me is the Famicom(ie NES) was released in '83, not too long after the 5200.

 

No, Warner couldn't have changed things with the time adjustment. Atari was playing the same old tune of arcade ports, when we would later see the NES start making games with greater depth for the home market. Sure, the NES had arcade ports, but it wasn't 100% of their software base.

 

To be fair, Nintendo also had a headstart. Look at the launch titles for the Famicom in Japan. It's pretty much arcade ports and junk. While Atari was working things out, the NES launched with the Famicoms second generation of games over here. It's kind of like if the NES had somehow taken longer to hit Europe and they had somehow not had a lot of rights there so they lauched with Baloon Fight and Xevious, and the 7800 had launched there with Midnight Mutants and Alien Brigade at the same time. While Atari was putting out the 7800 games they already had in the pipe, Nintendo was bringing over stuff they had 2 years work on.

 

It was largely a circumstance of the timing that made the software seem so much more forward looking 9on the NES.

 

I don't claim to know how exhaustive a Wikipedia list is, but look at the three titles they do have listed for the Famicom launch in 1983.

 

http://en.wikipedia....tainment_System

 

EDIT: A better list from Nintendoage:

http://www.nintendoage.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Search.Results&pId=10&Year=1983

 

Same story.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Atarifever