If Warner held on a little longer

[Ransom]

Because journalists at the time and a lot of the people who ran the toy industry did not understand the concept as a medium. To the toy industry (which is what controlled video gaming at the time), the Atari 2600 was just another pet rock, Rubik's Cube, Simon, or UNO deck. And even though the Atari 2600 was dominant on the shelves for six years, it never got accepted by these guys as anything more than 'the next fad' - one they really wanted to kill dead to make way for the NEXT fad. The people running the companies were two generations removed from their market and it showed.

 

What saved video games in the US was NOT just the launch of the Nintendo, which certainly helped, but was the rise of stores like Software Etc., which took some of the control of the market OUT of the hands of the toy industry and into its own niche. It was really had to say that 'no one wants video games' when the little game shop across the aisle was outselling Sears' entire toy department in 1985... and it did.

 

That's interesting. I'll bet their compensation was tied up to some extent in having a new fad toy each year as well.

 

I remember buying Atari 400/800 software at Toys R Us and thinking it was kind of weird to buy computer stuff at a toy store.

[Jaynz]

Yeah, some of the toy companies were VERY upset that this 'old fad' was still dominating shelves at retail toy aisles when they wanted to push their 'next big thing' instead. But, yes, the Atari generation was sold through the toy aisles more than anything (I remember the very nice Atari display at Greenwood Park Mall's LS Ayers being hidden with their four tiny rows of toys in the back, for instance.) It wouldn't be until about midway in the NES era that Video Games would be thrown into the electronics departments, where they've been ever since.

[Retro Rogue]

But, yes, the Atari generation was sold through the toy aisles more than anything (I remember the very nice Atari display at Greenwood Park Mall's LS Ayers being hidden with their four tiny rows of toys in the back, for instance.) It wouldn't be until about midway in the NES era that Video Games would be thrown into the electronics departments, where they've been ever since.

I'm not sure where you got that idea, they were sold in TV/Electronics stores and departments as well, going all the way back to the early 70s. In fact in most major department stores (Sears, Macy's, Marshall Fields, Gimbels, JC Penny, Target, Kohls, even K-Mart) they were sold in this area. Additionally, that's where the majority were sold through up until the popularity explosion of the early 80s when it expanded into toy areas (partially in thanks to the demand created by high tech electronic toys lead by Mattel with their handhelds, which skyrocketed in 1978).

 

Al Alcorn historically had a hard time getting anyone in the toy industry interested in the PONG console in 1975 when they showed at the toy show that year, and were only able to get in through the Sears sporting goods department, which shortly after moved to the TV/Electronics department. Magnavox's Odyssey and Odyssey pong followups were also in electronics retailers only (in the very early days usually only dealers of Maganvox products).

 

Here's an example of a typical TV/electronics store location in this early home PONG commercial:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flo0LrX0qUw

 

Here's a typical Macy's/etc. department store display around '80-'81:

 

[Magic Knight]

The guy on the right is looking for the cashier, but she's busy round the back playing breakout

[Jaynz]

I think it really depended mostly on when. I know that in the 1970s, and the first year or so for Atari, they were tied as 'electronics' very closely to the television department. (Not quite as drastic as Magnavox, though.) That really seemed to change once Space Invaders went out and it was more obvious that the kidlets were picking up the games rather than the bar-patron adults.

Doing some checking in, I did learn that LS Ayers, Sears, Woolworth, 3-D, and Ayr*Way all moved their Atari stock over to toys for Christmas of 1980, where they stayed pretty much until the crash. (Compare where Sears put the Telegames in its catalog.) The thinking and marketing definitely changed that year, and there are some adverts and commercials calling the Atari "The Toy of the Year". Thus the 'toy fad' thinking begun in earnest.

Keep in mind that 1980 is pretty much when I got into video gaming hard.. the years before that are a bit hazy... I was young. I do remember playing some video games in Arcadia, Indiana in a pinball parlor that very reluctantly picked up a few old 'EM Machine' ports...

[adamchevy]

As far as I have read and studied the original programmers of Atari games didn't intend there audience to be children. Maybe if they had stayed mostly in the electronics area of stores and in catalogs there sales might have stayed steady. I think it always comes down to marketing and product ingenuity/quality. Both are things Nintendo did absolutely right. I think there was a big disconnect between the game programmers and the marketing department at Atari. I think these concepts and understanding of how to market video games were in there infancy to some extent, but that's hard to argue when you compare Atari and Nintendo back in the 80s. Nintendo had superior games and superior marketing. Kids are generally thought of when you think of games, but currently the genre of video games and electronic entertainment seems to be pretty even across all age groups and it was probably the same then. Atari like most failed companies seemed to lack the best minds and talent, along with some unforseen competition from Nintendo. Competition that could have been somewhat eliminated, but again a lack of leadership talent and vision . I would have liked to have seen some better competition with Nintendo from Atari, but they almost seemed like they didn't know how to respond to some real competition to there long dominant presence in the marketplace . I think if Nolan Bushnell had stayed in charge history would look a lot different right now for Atari . He hired the best and brightest minds of that era. He also had a sound understanding of marketing.

[Lynxpro]

As far as I have read and studied the original programmers of Atari games didn't intend there audience to be children. Maybe if they had stayed mostly in the electronics area of stores and in catalogs there sales might have stayed steady. I think it always comes down to marketing and product ingenuity/quality. Both are things Nintendo did absolutely right. I think there was a big disconnect between the game programmers and the marketing department at Atari. I think these concepts and understanding of how to market video games were in there infancy to some extent, but that's hard to argue when you compare Atari and Nintendo back in the 80s. Nintendo had superior games and superior marketing. Kids are generally thought of when you think of games, but currently the genre of video games and electronic entertainment seems to be pretty even across all age groups and it was probably the same then. Atari like most failed companies seemed to lack the best minds and talent, along with some unforseen competition from Nintendo. Competition that could have been somewhat eliminated, but again a lack of leadership talent and vision . I would have liked to have seen some better competition with Nintendo from Atari, but they almost seemed like they didn't know how to respond to some real competition to there long dominant presence in the marketplace . I think if Nolan Bushnell had stayed in charge history would look a lot different right now for Atari . He hired the best and brightest minds of that era. He also had a sound understanding of marketing.

 

Atari Inc. understood marketing. Under Warner's reign, they marketed products masterfully. Atari advertised all the time on TV and in print. They successfully had their products in movies and tv shows thanks to their parent company Warner. Nintendo was a johnny-come-lately who became successful through the hindsight of the mistakes and circumstances that caused Atari Inc.'s downfall. They weren't innovative; it's just their marketing seemed like the stuff of legend when compared to Tramiel's Atari Corp.

[Jaynz]

Let's not kid ourselves. The real truth of the matter is that Atari needed to let the 2600 go, but were understandibly too scared to do it. By the time of 'the crash' that 2600 was long in the tooth and looked it. Pac-Man had happened and it was game that looked and played better EVERYWHERE else. Whatever technical failures or bad decisions you can cite, the real one was that Atari wasn't moving on, and not gearing itself to move on (neither the 5200 or 7800 ever had serious pushes) as technology moved forward.

To put it into terms, imagine if Sony had come out with the PS2 and PS3, but decided to not push them at all and still milk the original PS1 instead of either of their new systems. Where do you think Sony would be? That's EXACTLY what Atari did. The big difference between then and now is that most people saw Atari as 'the entire video game industry' and when Atari failed in the US, the bottom dropped out. Coleco nor Mattel didn't have the mindset of Microsoft or Nintendo and said 'now we can move in and take their place'... they said "Crap, Video games are DEAD! Switch to badly made computers instead!"

[DracIsBack]

Is there any idea how Jack's sons were received as bosses by Atari employees? Jack obviously had the rep of being a "boss from hell" but I've never heard anything regarding Leonard and Sam (wasn't there a third son? His name escapes me but I think he worked in engineering).

 

Here's an interesting article that I read recently.

 

http://www.consumerelectronicsnet.com/article/Content-Insider---Game-On-2871501

[desiv]

Because journalists at the time and a lot of the people who ran the toy industry did not understand the concept as a medium. To the toy industry (which is what controlled video gaming at the time), the Atari 2600 was just another pet rock, Rubik's Cube, Simon, or UNO deck.

Hmm..

Just find it interesting that of the "next fads" you mention, only the pet rock is not still for sale in toy stores...

 

desiv

[Jaynz]

True, but none of them have the same insane marketing as they did back then, and both the Cube and Simon are largely 'nostalgia' pieces more than mainline sales toys. (The Pet Rock actually enjoyed another release in the past few years as well.) When I worked with a toy agent in college, I was told up front that all they want to sell is the 'next fad', period. Brand building, and long-term sales are a "waste of time" ... apparently toy agents still say that, yet Mattel and Hasbro (much less Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo) are all about building their brand to stay competitive and even dominant.

[gorfcadet]

I know this point is out of left field, but I really remember a big difference maker to me and my brother was the automatic rf switcher with the Nes and Master System. We had the 7800, Nes, and a C64; but once we realized the Nes switcher didn't require us to constantly reach behind the tv it was a big plus in the Nintendo column. I wish Atari had put out an auto rf for the 2600 and 7800.

I'm sure many parents were pleased that their children were no longer reaching behind the tv every five seconds.

As far as holding on, I'm not sure how much more success it would have meant. They really needed a few Japanese devs on board as Capcom, Tecmo, Konami, Sega, and Nintendo really had their fingers on the gamer pulse at the time. Funny that a simple port of Pac Land would have been huge as a Mario style game at the time and Bob's Bently Bear could have been a huge hit 30 years ago.

Still glad I had a 7800 all these years.

[Lynxpro]

I know this point is out of left field, but I really remember a big difference maker to me and my brother was the automatic rf switcher with the Nes and Master System. We had the 7800, Nes, and a C64; but once we realized the Nes switcher didn't require us to constantly reach behind the tv it was a big plus in the Nintendo column. I wish Atari had put out an auto rf for the 2600 and 7800.

I'm sure many parents were pleased that their children were no longer reaching behind the tv every five seconds.

As far as holding on, I'm not sure how much more success it would have meant. They really needed a few Japanese devs on board as Capcom, Tecmo, Konami, Sega, and Nintendo really had their fingers on the gamer pulse at the time. Funny that a simple port of Pac Land would have been huge as a Mario style game at the time and Bob's Bently Bear could have been a huge hit 30 years ago.

Still glad I had a 7800 all these years.

 

Atari Games Corp had their fingers on the gamers pulse. Gauntlet, Gauntlet 2, Paperboy, 720 Degrees, Marble Madness, Roadblasters, Xybots, STUN Runner, Indiana Jones, Road Runner, Super Sprint & Championship Sprint, Hard Drivin', Cyberball & Tournament Cyberball, Batman, Tetris, Blasteroids, Rampart, Pit Fighter, Toobin', Primal Rage, APB, T-Mek, San Francisco Rush, California Speed, Area 51, etc, and that's not counting the Namco titles they released outside of Japan. They ruled the arcades until SF2 and had their catalog been exclusive to the 7800, the console would've came closer to the NES's success and that's without any Japanese support. But no, the Tramiels didn't buy the company nor did they license that library until after the release of the Lynx.

[gorfcadet]

I love all of those games, but from 84-88 Atari would have still needed a Mario killer, Zelda killer, Contra killer, Metroid killer, Dragon Warrior, etc. I love most of the games you listed, but at the Nes launch I think we started to see a divergence in arcade experiences vs console experiences. SEGA did a decent job of leveraging its properties, but at the end of the day I think sales bear out that arcade gamers didn't represent as big a piece of the pie as folks who wanted a different experience at home. The success of the Genesis seemed to come from Sonic and EA sports though I loved all my early arcade ports I don't think Altered Beast moved as many systems as the hedgehog. Fighting games and brawlers would be the exeption in the early 90's. Fighters fall into the Jaguar's lifetime.

 

Most of those games were late 80's early 90's; what from 84 to 86 from the arcade division would have given the 7800 some legs?

 

Mascots like Link, Mario, and Mega Man were hitting big. Atari would have needed to flesh out Bently, Dig Dug, or been sneaky and made a Donkey Kong/Mario Bros sequel to combat Nintendo with their own characters. I don't know if the license included use of those characters outside of the existing games though. No doubt they were missing the arcade division's design leads.

[Lynxpro]

Don't forget The Atarian vs the evil Ninjaendo. Or The Atari Force!

[MrMaddog]

This is what I think would happen if someone other than James Morgan was in charge of Atari (and Warner left NATCO the hell alone...)

 

7800: Would have been released a bit sooner in '84. Sales are good and Warner realizes that video games aren't a fad but people have been waiting for the right system to come out. Initial games are old arcade ports but soon the 7800 receives ports of home computer games and the newer American arcade games (especially from Atari's coin-op division). In other words, Atari really did reinvent the video game! More 3rd party titles come from American publishers and the system appeals to older gamers who grow up on the 2600.

 

Nintendo: They still are sucessful but would not be number one. With Atari still in the dominate position, Nintendo could approach Mattel to do distribution in the States like they actually did in Canada. NOA still insists on 3rd parties making games exclusive to their systems with lots of restrictions. Many American publishers balk at the terms because they've done good business with Atari for a while now. So nearly all the 3rd party games on the NES are strictly Japanese, especially with many arcade games being from Japan. The NES would mostly appeal to younger kids being sold in the toy section as well as being more open to the different style of games than on the 7800. There are adventure type games like Zelda and Metroid that older gamers like.

 

Atari ST: The home computer division is still sold off to Jack Tramiel but without the distraction of trying to compete in the (previously) dead gaming market, Atari Computers do a bit better. Hopefully Sam Tramiel wouldn't buy the money pit that was Federated Electronics and try to foster good relationships with Atari computer dealers. ST's were best known for non-gaming purposes even though there are still lots of 3rd party games made for the system (especially in Europe). Even better if they learned to market the ST as a better and cheaper alternative to the Mac (with help from Dave Small's Mac emulator). Ulitmately the PC platform will win out no matter that happens. They would ever fold like Commodore did or become yet another PC maker.

 

Amiga: It was originally a high end 16-bit system with a keyboard and disk drive (like the A500). But since NATCO cannot make computers that compete against Atari Corp, the Amiga loses the keyboard and/or desktop OS. People can still use the Amiga to develop games but wouldn't be use other computer purposes with the ST filling that role. Even so, it's still a popular system at least in Europe. Higher cost and popularity of the 7800 prevents it from being a mass sucess in the States (though some will buy it like it's a NeoGeo). In later 80's the Amiga starts ganing more traction due to being the only 16-bit system till Sega comes out with the Genesis which is cheaper even though the carts cost more than the Amiga games.

 

Big Cat Systems: Due to 16-bit cart systems coming out, Atari repsonds with the Panther which surpasses the Amiga. The Jaguar gets delayed for a couple years and gets a RISC based CPU instead making it much better than what we got. Lynx would do fairly well due to ports of Atari arcade games and better 3rd party support because they need American developers to compete against the Japanese competition.

 

If Atari still survives after the 90's, they probably would make an Xbox like system...