When is an Atari no longer "an Atari?"

[fibrewire]

That said, i'd probably let an FPGA clone pass as long as it maintained an extremely high level of accuracy; that means an 800XL with a VBXE is less Atari-ish than a DE-1 with an SIO, video and joystick ports grafted on according to my "logic" so i'm not sure how seriously anybody should take any of this paragraph...?

My sentiments exactly. VBXE is cool, but it falls into the same category as stuffing a 6809 or SID chip inside. It's cool, but also it's not Atari. Conversely, the SWP ATR8000 is an external peripheral and allows two way interaction between the Atari, and doesn't break compatibility because there is no "brain transplant" involved. Also, the Incognito feels more like a proper Atari successor to the 8 bit line because it supports multiple original hardware configurations. But this is just my opinion...

Edited November 16, 2013 by fibrewire

[suspicious_milk]

Vbxe is still Atari. Gtia/Antic was designed as an evolution to the VCS. It still "races the beam", so you don't have to, but is obviously the same family from an engineering standpoint. AFAICT VBXE logically extends that and couldn't be more "Atari" if Nolan Bushnell sqeezed it out his butt.

 

So long as my Official Atari periphials, media, & programs work with it, and ANY emulation is 100% transparent to me as a USER; it's a freakin' Atari.

 

I've used various Mac/Linux emulators and they just don't cut it. I also have an SIO2SD, which I kinda like, but still prefer floppies and tapes. I find cassettes to hold up better over time, and would love to see a new cassette drive made. Unlike 5.25" disks, new cassettes and their hardware are still around & cheap. Due to other uses, it appears they aren't going away. A newly manufactured floppy drive wouldn't hurt my feelings either.

[+wood_jl]

Incognito merely allows an Atari (beige 800) to do some things that it couldn't (XL/XE stuff), so it's **obviously** still "an Atari" as the goal is to do Atari things, namely XL/XE things on an 800. As the 400/800/XL/XE never really advanced, it's not a huge stretch for beige 800 to do these things, although it is QUITE a nice application of technology (thanks, Candle!) to make it happen. But it is obvious that what we wanted was an Atari (beige 800) to behave like another Atari (XL/XE) and under those circumstances and results, how can anyone claim anything was not trying to be anything other than an original Atari? VBXE - on the other hand, advances Atari graphics closer to Amiga-like graphics - clearly beyond Atari. That is different, and a different machine, but very cool, nonetheless.

[+wood_jl]

edit:Web delay and double post

[suspicious_milk]

Sooo by that logic, a 68k upgrade would be good, so we can run MINT. Maybe VBXE allows graphics closer to a Jaguar not Amiga, so it's still Atari? I noticed you used the preface "original", which wasn't the discussion. So anything that advances the Atari, makes it not Atari? Kind of weird opinion, but you're entitled

[+wood_jl]

Sooo by that logic, a 68k upgrade would be good, so we can run MINT. Maybe VBXE allows graphics closer to a Jaguar not Amiga, so it's still Atari? I noticed you used the preface "original", which wasn't the discussion. So anything that advances the Atari, makes it not Atari? Kind of weird opinion, but you're entitled

 

Sooo, my opinion is that when a mod that allows an Atari8 (beige 800) to behave like another (extremely similar, in the first place) Atari8 (XL/XE), it's still "an Atari." That wasn't "the discussion?" Wasn't the discussion "When is an Atari no longer "an Atari?" Is there something wrong with the preface "original?" Allow me to tie-in the relevance of "original." See, when the discussion is "When is an Atari no longer "an Atari"" then "the original" is clearly a reference to the Atari before modification. I'm not sure what could be simpler or more easily-understood by that. Thereby I don't understand your being thrown by the preface "original." I don't know what a 68k upgrade has to do with "the discussion" anyway, but I'm pretty sure that 68k processors are outside the bailiwick of Atari8. So my opinion was that the Incognito makes an Atari behave like another Atari, therefore it's clearly still an Atari. Your opinion of that opinon is that it's kind of weird. My opinion of the opinion that a mod that makes an Atari act like another Atari and therefore is "kind of weird" is that that opinion is kind of weird. But as you so duly noted, you're entitled, as well.

[akator]

Isn't most of this pretty straightforward?

 

FPGA and emulation are reproductions. We don't call a repro Rembrandt the real thing or a repro Ferrari the real thing, therefore a repro Atari is not the real thing either.

 

Something modded beyond the function of the original equipment is a hybrid. We aren't talking peripherals like SD floppy emulators or flash carts, but installing an OS that wasn't available 20 years ago is pretty significant. The object becomes a hybrid between old and new. Hybrids are not considered the same as the original. (Example #1: blend a donkey with a horse and get a mule or a hinny. The mule or hinny is a hybrid. It is neither a donkey nor a horse. An Atari modded too far is also hybrid.) (Example #2: genetically mod a human to breathe both air and underwater. Is the result still homo sapiens? No. The engineered result may be better, more capable, but it is now something new.) (Example #3: put a Ferrari engine into a Ford. The result is not a Ferrari, nor is it a Ford, it is a hybrid or "custom.")

[suspicious_milk]

Well at least we agree we are weird :-P

 

My hangup on "original" is because even replacing, say, a case badge would make it no longer "original" in the strictest sense.

 

I stated, outright, how an Atari would no longer be one; according to my opinion of course (the point of discussion). You gave some vague guidelines, and I was attempting to "nail them down" out of shear curiosity; as of course there is no right/wrong.

 

However, the logic of how you arrived at your opinion seems possibly inconsistent.

 

A 68k upgrade is well within the purvue of your 1st post: but not your 2nd after you introduced "bitness" as a qualifier.

 

Out of curiosity, again; would a 32-bit (or 8-bit) multi-core CPU make an Atari not an Atari if it were 100% 6502C code compatible as well as socket (ie drop in replacement)?

Edited November 17, 2013 by suspicious_milk

[suspicious_milk]

@akator good examples, I can't disagree, it's just interesting to see where people draw lines & and why :-)

[fibrewire]

We are getting to the point were we need a way to prolong the life of Atari hardware, would a replacement motherboard that included vbxe, extra memory etc but with sockets for GTIA, 6502 & pokey and could be dropped in an XL or XE case still be an Atari?

This is a great example. I guess this depends on what version of the 8-bit one grew up with, or if this machine is really just a retro computing discovery, etc. Aside from what others think, a regular 6502 came with my 800 and a few extra ttl logic to make a halt state i believe. So an 8-bit atari to me is a stock 800/XL/XE or an electrical representation that supports:

 

* 6502B w/ supporting ttl OR 6502C "Sally" atari custom cpu

* ANTIC

* GTIA

* POKEY

* PIA

* SIO

* 800/XL/XE RAM addressing (Incognito)

* 2 Joystick ports

* some kind of RF out

* Must work with majority of software developed between '79 to '91

 

Some grey areas that I didn't include are:

* Atari 400/800 4 joystick ports

* Atari 800 slots

* Right cartridge slot

* CTIA

* PBI

* XE enhanced cart slot

 

Anything outside of this or a similar list is:

* A Bonus

* Not Atari

 

I hope this list is the black-and-white example people were looking for. Please feel free to add to this list or just rip me a new one

Edited November 17, 2013 by fibrewire

[+MrFish]

Simple Analogy:

Atari 8-Bit = Aged Wine

Peripherals = Cup used to drink the Wine


My Perspective:

Use any Cup you want, but don't mess with the Wine...

[atari8warez]

When an Atari is no longer an Atari?

 

Well, when the motherboard no longer looks like this. LOL

 

[Bryan]

Out of curiosity, again; would a 32-bit (or 8-bit) multi-core CPU make an Atari not an Atari if it were 100% 6502C code compatible as well as socket (ie drop in replacement)?

 

Probably because a PC running an emulator can theoretically be 100% compatible with a given system yet is not that system.

[potatohead]

Yes, and it would come down to whether or not others could and or would have that mod.

 

Say some magic drop in CPU ended up being dead simple, cost $20, and people just started selling Atari systems already modded, similar to video mods and memory mods. If the population got up there, we all might have a fine time jamming on it. Problem is, the stuff just never quite gets ubiquitous.

 

Harmony seems to be making the jump though. Plenty of people have 'em, more are buying 'em, and batari is gonna be around for a while and did a great job engineering it to just work and not cost much.

 

So, I would say this is possible, but hard.

 

Thing is, Harmony games using the extra CPU still feel a lot like 2600 (VCS) games, so it all kind of works. Maybe that's a special case due to how the VCS does it's thing.

 

Personally, I always wanted a 6809 in my Atari back in the day. Once I programmed it on the Color Computer 2 and 3, it was addictive. Fun chip! Now it got done, but the moment has passed for me. Wanted one in the Apple as well, on a card and those got made too. A little different, but still that moment has passed I think.

[+MrFish]

Personally, I always wanted a 6809 in my Atari back in the day. Once I programmed it on the Color Computer 2 and 3, it was addictive. Fun chip! Now it got done, but the moment has passed for me. Wanted one in the Apple as well, on a card and those got made too. A little different, but still that moment has passed I think.

 

I'd still like to see what the early 6809 Mac was like.

[potatohead]

Me too.

[+MrFish]

I'll bet there's still one of the boards out there, either at Apple or with someone from the original team, like Burrell.

Edited November 18, 2013 by MrFish

[potatohead]

At this point, we just need the code. FPGA the thing and check it out!

[Marius]

I agree with mr fish and his wine

 

I really must say that my Atari fun has increased a lot since I do stick with original computers and concentrate on external solutions.

 

The only mod that does not count for me as a mod in this theory is the adding +5V on the 800XL PBI port, although i did not do that one.

 

Since i have the turbo freezer 2011 with even a huge XE compatible ram expansion and all kind of storage solutions (like IDE+, sio2usb, myide ][) and amazing carts like SIC! And the 4MB cart from panos/big Ben ...

I really don't have any need to upgrade my Atari! As soon as I want to step back to original it is a matter of detaching all this and bang I am back where I started.

 

Of course: ultimate 1mb is one of the greatest upgrades ever and I think I would love Vbxe ... But that last one adds features to my Atari which I only can reproduce on an Atari which also has VBXE ... So that makes Atari with Vbxe and software especially for Vbxe less Atari for me.

 

All software that uses more than 128kb is also having this issue (although there are external memory expansions). I want to be able to boot a title from stock Atari 1050 or xf551 on a stock 130xe,

 

That gives me the feel that this actually could have be seen in the 80's when my Atari was my only computer in da house.

 

Meanwhile I like the 320+ games like commando and bomb jack and Demo's like NUMEN and silly venture titles.

But more as a prove how powerful the original hardware is (and the coders who are true wizards!)

 

 

[+DarkLord]

This is an interesting (and familiar!) thread to me. I've had this same kind

of conversation over in the ST forums (here and at Atari Forum). Lots of

opinions, yay and nay.

 

I recased my Falcon into a Wizztronics case and (some) people immediately

claimed it was no longer a Falcon. Still the same motherboard, OS, just

running a lot faster, with more memory, better graphics and lots more drive

space because of the extra room for things like the CT60 and SuperVidel.

 

I put a PAK 68/3 (68030 running at 40mhz) board into my Atari STacy. Again

some people said because it wasn't the original 68000, it was no longer an

Atari (for the record, it has a compatiblity mode that runs the original TOS

version and CPU). A person would be hard pressed to look at its outside

and say its not a STacy. Still original motherboard, running an Atari OS,

and Atari software...

 

The PAK accelerator board was sold in the 90's for the ST line. I can't

remember anyone *ever* saying that if you used one you no longer

had an Atari *then*.

 

I've got an 800XL with the Ultimate upgrade and an external SNUX

drive. Still looks like an 800XL to me...

 

So my point is, I can't help but wonder if its because Atari Corp is

gone, and we are looking at our machines through a "retro" lens,

that this question even comes up...

[Bryan]

Personally, I always wanted a 6809 in my Atari back in the day. Once I programmed it on the Color Computer 2 and 3, it was addictive. Fun chip! Now it got done, but the moment has passed for me. Wanted one in the Apple as well, on a card and those got made too. A little different, but still that moment has passed I think.

I think it would be fun to design a drop-in 6502 replacement with expanded instruction decoding. I wouldn't go crazy adding new ALU features, but just make other things possible with a single instruction.

[fibrewire]

So my point is, I can't help but wonder if its because Atari Corp is

gone, and we are looking at our machines through a "retro" lens,

that this question even comes up...

 

For me it's my (lack of) understanding of the VBXE that really prompted the creation of this thread. As someone else mentioned in an earlier post, "if it looks like an atari 8-bit..." - the VBXE surely changes that. I appreciate the limitations of the hardware as it's spawned awesome work in demos and games that create astounding graphics from the Atari 8-bit through the years. The games and demos produced so far using the new accelerator look amazing, but isn't a VBXE equipped 8-bit computer only marginally different than an Atari Lynx?

Edited November 19, 2013 by fibrewire

[Bryan]

 

For me it's my (lack of) understanding of the VBXE that really prompted the creation of this thread. As someone else mentioned in an earlier post, "if it looks like an atari 8-bit..." - the VBXE surely changes that. I appreciate the limitations of the hardware as it's spawned awesome work in demos and games that create astounding graphics from the Atari 8-bit through the years. The games and demos produced so far using the new accelerator look amazing, but isn't a VBXE equipped 8-bit computer only marginally different than an Atari Lynx?

 

VBXE is like a graphics card on the PC. It is a self-contained video generator with its own RAM and command set. It's a very powerful add-on and IMO there's nothing really retro about it except where it's being installed.

[+MrFish]

Here's what VBXE does for the 8-Bits:

 

 

But, hey, it looks like a lot of fun. So for whoever is into it, go for it. Hobbies are all about having fun and getting away from all the everyday BS of life, not conforming to somebody else's idealized standard about "how to play the game right", or needing to justify why you do what you like to do. Who the hell should tell you or me how to enjoy our own F'ing hobby? Anyway, VBXE is a waste of time, money, and silicon in my case.

Edited November 19, 2013 by MrFish

[flashjazzcat]

It's worth £100 not to have to look at crappy Y/C output.