When is an Atari no longer "an Atari?"

[greblus]

VBXE is like a graphics card on the PC. It is a self-contained video generator with its own RAM and command set. It's a very powerful add-on and IMO there's nothing really retro about it except where it's being installed.

But it fits perfectly in the Atari architecture and it doesn't feel like a monster from 21-century at the back of our poor old Atari. I know it's a subjective feeling, but it is quite natural and really well thought out design (well, all Candle's toys I have are like that, I don't have a feeling of profanation after the upgrade is done).

 

One doesn't even have to use FX core... and the only sign of modding is the new video socket and in XE series the red light shining through upper cover's ventillation holes, which is kinda cool in the evening

 

The only thing I'm missing are some good programming examples. The manual is quite difficult to comprehend sometimes (eg color attribute maps are still magical to me) and Rybags' examples in Basic from this thread allowed me to start and have some great fun experimenting with Action! If only i have some more free time...

 

Ok, I know it's a bit pointless discussion: when somebody is a collector at heart any kind of mod will hurt.

[+MrFish]

It's worth £100 not to have to look at crappy Y/C output.

 

I don't think Y/C output could be called "crappy", at least on the 800 and 130XE that I've used in conjunction with an awesome JVC CRT studio monitor. I wouldn't even call it crappy on the crappy little Toshiba TV I've used them on.

 

However, I was referencing the "extra" features of VBXE above. Nothing wrong with the improved video signal, but the other stuff is not needed in my case. The eighty columns... maybe, if there actually be enough uses these days. I suppose the eighty columns is similar to the flopped XEP, which is acceptable to me since it's not overkill, even if it's nearly useless.

 

Is a better video signal worth £100 to me? It seems more than a little steep considering how good of a signal I already have. Also, in defense of crappier video signals (i.e.: composite), I tend to like the "softness" that it gives to the pixels for things like games, pictures, demos and such. If you live in NTSC land I also think the 800XL composite and a 1702 make a pretty strong case for the use of artifacting. With that combination I'm close to being converted from my former opinion against artifacting as a whole.

Edited November 19, 2013 by MrFish

[emc]

If they ding you on Antiques Roadshow, when they finally get there, is when it's not an Atari, lol. "If it only had it's original smokers patina and no VBXE it would be worth 10k for insurance purposes."

 

LOL

[flashjazzcat]

 

I don't think Y/C output could be called "crappy", at least on the 800 and 130XE that I've used in conjunction with an awesome JVC CRT studio monitor. I wouldn't even call it crappy on the crappy little Toshiba TV I've used them on.

 

 

Must just be me or my monitors then - even modded machines tend to pale in comparison to VBXE RGB output on a 1084S. If I'd never seen RGB, I wouldn't know what I was missing, but I did, and I do.

 

Even when I think I've tuned the Y/C so it looks good, I boot The Last Word and... forget about it. Sure you can make the letters out, but it's indistinct. Switch to an LCD, then, and watch its skewy s-video scaler make one side of the software 80 column characters wider than the other. With RGB, none if this quaint compromise between practicality and purism: it's clear and you can read it. I always had the uncomfortable feeling, therefore, that LW's 80 column mode is largely redundant on a stock machine (and therefore "not Atari"?... where does it all end?). However - as I say, I may just have experienced unlucky marriages of computer and display. The exception is a particular 800XL with a particular mod (Ultravideo) and a particular LCD monitor (LG M227WD, which sadly died), which resulted in somewhat RGB-like quality. But in general, I don't find Y/C output terribly well suited to 80-column output.

Edited November 19, 2013 by flashjazzcat

[+MrFish]

 

Must just be me or my monitors then - even modded machines tend to pale in comparison to VBXE RGB output on a 1084S. If I'd never seen RGB, I wouldn't know what I was missing, but I did, and I do.

 

Maybe (your monitors)... you're tempting me to pull my JVC out and take those screenshots I've been promising for over a year.

[flashjazzcat]

 

Maybe (your monitors)... you're tempting me to pull my JVC out and take those screenshots I've been promising for over a year.

 

Please do! And take plenty of shots of LW in 80 column mode with the default colour scheme.

 

Anyway: to get back to the theme - RGB output is (I'd suggest) something users would have keenly adopted were an adapter made available back in the day. The extra graphics capabilities of VBXE are, of course, a different matter when it comes to what's "Atari" and what isn't.

Edited November 19, 2013 by flashjazzcat

[+MrFish]

Please do! And take plenty of shots of LW in 80 column mode with the default colour scheme.

 

No problem. That was actually my reference point for determining how great the video looked in the first place.

 

 

Anyway: to get back to the theme - RGB output is (I'd suggest) something users would have keenly adopted were an adapter made available back in the day. The extra graphics capabilities of VBXE are, of course, a different matter when it comes to what's "Atari" and what isn't.

 

I agree, but I'd rather see something on the outside of the machine, or something on the inside that requires fitting via a socket and possibly a plug and play cable only. Not that I can't solder, but to me it's an admission of failure compared to how upgrades were performed on an Apple II and subsequent generations of personal computers. I suppose elegance was lost when the 800's faded out of the picture, and Atari had to cave in to the beckoning of cheaper machines. Anybody want to join me in shedding another tear for the 1090?

Edited November 19, 2013 by MrFish

[Bryan]

It's interesting to see how different monitors handle S-video. It's normal for composite to be bandwidth limited, but some monitors allow very sharp images on the Y input. The color edges will never be perfect under NTSC, but monochrome text can be as sharp as RGB.

[flashjazzcat]

Anybody want to join me in shedding another tear for the 1090?

 

Yeah, I'll get in on that.

[+MrFish]

 

Yeah, I'll get in on that.

 

At this point it would make a nice tissue box. A little pricey...

[Creature XL]

Don't blame only the monitor/TV.

Recently I bought a 2nd 800XL of eBay and its output on my TV is so much worse then the one of my other 800XL.

 

VBXE is definetly not "Atari". for one, "Atari" is the 256/128 color we have and the lack of all these cool colors we know from ST/AMIGA.

the view demos/games I saw videos of on YouTube look more like ST/AMIGA due to the used colors and of ocurse the 320x240 resolution.

It is such a big difference to 160x240.

[flashjazzcat]

Display quality aside, the resolution / colour limitations as well as the stock CPU clock speed are one of the joys of developing for the platform. Not everyone "gets" why that's the case, but it is the case for me. Stick a 16MHz processor in there and throw 256 colours at the screen and it becomes unclear where the achievement lies in getting the machine to perform various feats.

[576XE]

Hello, dear All!

 

My opinion is simple.

Atari can not became NOT ATARI without some surgery!

So if baby's virginity is intact IT'S ATARI.

 

We must recall that Atari loves it's Intellectual peripherals!

PC is one of the best.

And CRAY 10 too. (SIO2CRAY)

And Nakamichi Dragon can be perfect replacement for XC12! (Turbo Dragon 2014)

 

Atari is Master and any Z80 peripherals (and modern ones) are only the slaves!

(So we all need modern Video with F.E. UTF-8 support but staying Atari intact.)

 

I love VBXE idea! I love it's perfect engineering but ...

 

Don't poke your tentacles thingi in my Atari gentle thingi!!!

 

(I,m sorry but my English is far from perfect English)

[+Ripdubski]

We are getting to the point were we need a way to prolong the life of Atari hardware, would a replacement motherboard that included vbxe, extra memory etc but with sockets for GTIA, 6502 & pokey and could be dropped in an XL or XE case still be an Atari?

Something that always ratttles around in my head is a kickstarter to produce a new Atari or Atari compatable, specifically like the 1400xl or 1450 but with a single floppy (3.5") and and a built in expansion such as IDE+ 2, and higher resolution. With case castings matching those old designs. It probably would have to have a different name.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Ripdubski

[fibrewire]

Something that always ratttles around in my head is a kickstarter to produce a new Atari or Atari compatable, specifically like the 1400xl or 1450 but with a single floppy (3.5") and and a built in expansion such as IDE+ 2, and higher resolution. With case castings matching those old designs. It probably would have to have a different name.

 

Most of the hard work has already been done via Candle's Incognito board, so now we just need the rest of the Atari 8-bit in a CPLD or on a SBC to keep it somewhat oem. Maybe the Altirra DE-1 project is a good place to start? Or for a CPLD, maybe an image of GTIA would come in handy?

 

I really like the idea of a small SBC Atari with sockets for an actual 6502 and GTIA with built in Incognito!

Edited February 15, 2014 by fibrewire

[BillC]

 

Most of the hard work has already been done via Candle's Incognito board, so now we just need the rest of the Atari 8-bit in a CPLD or on a SBC to keep it somewhat oem. Maybe the Altirra DE-1 project is a good place to start? Or for a CPLD, maybe an image of GTIA would come in handy?

 

I really like the idea of a small SBC Atari with sockets for an actual 6502 and GTIA with built in Incognito!

Candle designed something along those lines a while back, but I think it pre-dated Incognito.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/73748-building-a-new-xl-mobo/?do=findComment&comment=2398268

[fibrewire]

One doesn't even have to use FX core... and the only sign of modding is the new video socket and in XE series the red light shining through upper cover's ventillation holes, which is kinda cool in the evening

 

I never realized what you were saying - so VBXE doesn't force the user to use the FX core? I'm gonna have to get one of these

 

Guess there is no way to emulate Bit3 or AF80...

Edited February 16, 2014 by fibrewire

[greblus]

 

I never realized what you were saying - so VBXE doesn't force the user to use the FX core? I'm gonna have to get one of these

 

Guess there is no way to emulate Bit3 or AF80...

 

Even with FX core loaded (which i use all the time since the very first day) you won't notice a difference other than a superior video quality and red, which is really red. PAL Blending was introduced in GTIA core 1.26 (but I can't name even one program i use which requires it anyway). And it's also very easy to change the core if necessary.

 

If it's about 80-column mode emulation, It's hard for me to tell anything about Bit3||AF80. Such goodies were basically unavailable in Poland in the eighties so i don't know them. But there is a driver for SDX and the Last Word works flawlessly in 80-column mode, you can see it here:

 

 

(sorry for slow typing, it was completely dark in the room and my Atari was upside down )

[Stormtrooper of Death]

one of my many dreams is this one:

 

remember the Atari flashback machine ? Sold in Holland in het Kruidvat, for 20$. Dirtcheap.

 

i negotitate with some asian folks about doing the same, but this time Atari 8bit 800XL.

 

selling for 30$ in normal retail stores (NOT computer stores).

 

Not an ennemy of windows. Nope.

 

I also have in my mind the package of the box

 

"30$ / euros . a Learning Computer. Introducing, the Atari VR (Vermeulen Richard /thats my name). You can choose option 1 - play emulated 8bit games, or ... option 2 - computer mode. Real SIO ports, USB ports, etc. programming lanuage. thanks to USB you can download thousands of Atari 8bit programs and games. Also included a book / manual on paper (yep, NOT CD-rom ~!!!!) real paper, where you can learn to program this machine)

 

suited for Adults and Children. Fit with 120 standard Atari 8bit and Atari 2600 roms, option 2 gives you a full Atari 130XE.

 

 

Made in COMMUNIST China (i support communism).

 

Power, without the price.

 

PS: Windows and Apple generate users, not programmers, Good ol' Atari made many folks real programmers. ~!

lets bring this back

bomb da base of da internetz, fu'. da micro$oft and apples. Go Atari

for only 30$ you can your own personal star.

 

PPS: If they made a million by the Atari Flashback, I (we) can do the same. Yep, including a real Keyboard. also SD card option included. and superGrafix Chip. In the book evertthing software wise, and hardware is explained.

 

To help DIY folks. Making own hardware add-ons will be encouraged.

 

only 30 euros !

Edited February 16, 2014 by Stormtrooper of Death