no Qix for the 7800?

[Lynxpro]

The 7800 XM isn't a 7800, therefore it is irrelevant and of no interest to true classic console gamers. If I wanted to play a not-7800 version of Qix, I'd just fire up the original in MAME.

 

But it is a 7800. It has a Pokey chip which GCC/Atari Inc. originally intended to include in various game cartridges but Atari Corp. was too cheap to do so except for in the cases of Ballblazer and Commando. Thus the XM allows a more efficient allocation of POKEY chips instead of wasting them in multiple carts. The XM includes the HSC which GCC/Atari Inc. intended to produce but Atari Corp. later was too cheap to offer us. If it's possible for the XM and the XBoard to "add" 128K RAM to a 7800, then it would've been possible to do it via cartridge back in the day on rare occasions but Atari Corp again was too cheap to do so. And the Yamaha YM2151 was used in various "Atari" - both Inc. and Games Corp entities - arcade games so it could've been offered via cartridge again if Atari Corp. hadn't been cheap.

 

So the XM is a realization of what Atari Corp. should've done with the 7800 - but didn't - and what Atari Inc. most likely would've done had NATCO gone through and the Tramiels had instead purchased Mindset and subsequently gone under and sold used cars for the rest of their lives.

 

Had NATCO gone through, the later 7800 games probably would've used the Amiga Paula or the Atari AMY sound chips in them, and at the very least, the GUMBY chip which may or may not have ended up being more powerful than the trusty POKEY.

 

 

 

 

 

With that being said, let's not forget about the XBoard. Too bad the XM's code couldn't be altered to allow for the XBoard to also be used in conjunction… That would mean 256K RAM and 3 POKEYs! Through in a Cuttle Cart 2 or the future Harmony and that would bring the 7800 up to QUAD POKEYs like some of the Atari arcade games had...

[8th lutz]

 

What happened with Elevator Action? Did GCC lose it? I'm getting confused whether that was supposed to appear on the 5200, 7800, or both.

 

Elevator Action was supposed to be on both systems although an internal Atari document had the Atari 7800 version as Unscheduled Options.

 

The catch is the name of the elevator action programmer for the Atari 7800 version isn't know unlike the Atari 5200 based the Digital Press Collector's guide and there was 2 documents about the Atari 7800 version the game with the first being an internal Atari Inc. Document called Unscheduled options. The 7800 version was expected to be shown at the June 1984 ces and was 80 percent completed according to a 2nd document.

 

The 5200 version was also around 80 percent done according to the 5200 programmer of the game Joe Copson before Elevator Action was pulled. People at Digital Press thought the title wasn't burned to an eprom.

[Lynxpro]

Elevator Action was supposed to be on both systems although an internal Atari document had the Atari 7800 version as Unscheduled Options.

 

The catch is the name of the elevator action programmer for the Atari 7800 version isn't know unlike the Atari 5200 based the Digital Press Collector's guide and there was 2 documents about the Atari 7800 version the game with the first being an internal Atari Inc. Document called Unscheduled options. The 7800 version was expected to be shown at the June 1984 ces and was 80 percent completed according to a 2nd document.

 

The 5200 version was also around 80 percent done according to the 5200 programmer of the game Joe Copson before Elevator Action was pulled. People at Digital Press thought the title wasn't burned to an eprom.

 

 

Both were 80% done? Ugh! Too bad they apparently don't know where the source code is...

[8th lutz]

The Atari 7800 did have some games on the internal Atari document called Unscheduled options besides Elevator Action . The catch is it is unknown if Atari Inc. actually considered GCC for doing Elevator Action.

 

The Atari 7800 had on the n the internal Atari document called Unscheduled options is Cloak & dagger, Disney #1, Garfield, Jungle Hunt, Super Pac-Man, and Tempest. I remembered Tempest being mentioned on this forum years ago with Atari doing the game, not GCC with Dave Getreu being the designer. All I remembered reading Tempest didn't go far as a completed game and it is obvious why from a ram standpoint.

 

I have no idea what of a Disney game Disney #1 was supposed to be. It does makes sense with Atari Inc. released Disney games for the Atari 2600 and there was other prototype Disney games found for the Atari 2600 and the Atari 5200.

Edited December 10, 2013 by 8th lutz

[Trebor]

The 7800 XM isn't a 7800, therefore it is irrelevant and of no interest to true classic console gamers. If I wanted to play a not-7800 version of Qix, I'd just fire up the original in MAME.

I am a "true classic console gamer" and the XM is of interest to me.

 

The XM module is placing hardware which could be manufactured and used inside a 7800 cartridge in a central location. When you look at the contemporary system of the time - The NES - The majority of the games released for that system would not exist without the additional hardware that was placed inside the cartridges.

 

Memory Management Controller chips found inside Nintendo cartridges include (but not exclusive to):

 

A*ROM

MMC1

MMC2

MMC3

MMC4

MMC5

MMC6

UNROM

 

Third Party chips found inside Nintendo cartridges include (but not exclusive to):

 

FME7

NAMCO106

VRC2

VRC4

VRC6

VRC7

SUNSOFT4

 

Also, there is the additional hardware "add-on" battery backed saving for some games.

 

If you eliminate all those chips and features, the bulk of the Nintendo library disappears. Technically, Nintendo could have designed an 'XM like' device that held all those different chips (Perhaps not the third party, but definitely the MMC ones) and features; however, they designed and produced them on the cartridge level instead.

 

Without those 'XM-like' additional chips inside NES cartridges you lose ~90% of the entire library. Roughly only ~10% of the games released for Nintendo's flag ship console could run on the "base" system without additional hardware.

 

Would this mean that a "true classic console gamer" only plays ~10% of the Nintendo library?

 

When you compare what additional 'different' hardware (One of which already exists in the original retail library) the XM is adding relative to the abundance of additional 'different' hardware found in NES carts it is much, much less.

 

The XM eliminates the need for homebrewers to create or manufacture new cart (types) to accomodate the games. A cartridge (PCB) can be designed and manufactured that would play games like Donkey Kong XM and Bentley Bear fully without an XM. The XM eliminates the need for that to be done over and over again, saving time, money and resources in the long run.

[ZylonBane]

But it is a 7800.

 

Can you plug a 7800XM cartridge into a stock 7800 and play it? No? Then it's not a 7800 game. It's as simple as that, no matter how much y'all try to rationalize it.

[Trebor]

 

Can you plug a 7800XM cartridge into a stock 7800 and play it? No? Then it's not a 7800 game. It's as simple as that, no matter how much y'all try to rationalize it.

What do you think of Ballblazer and Commando?

 

Can you take a 7800XM cartridge, create a new PCB with the necessary hardware and create a 7800 cartridge that does not require an XM? Yes. It is a 7800 game. It's that simple.

 

What I think you are really having issue with is how hardware is being utilized and presented. It's not something for example along the lines like a 7800 game should not use POKEY sound (Unless you believe Commando and Ballblazer are not 7800 games). You just want the (POKEY) chip(s) to come from the cartridge itself and not an external piece of hardware.

 

You're against a 7800 version of Qix that requires the XM module. OK...Would you be against a 7800 version of Qix that did not utilize an XM module, but rather contained the necessary parts of the XM being utilized inside a cartridge?

[ZylonBane]

What do you think of Ballblazer and Commando?

 

I think that you can plug them into a stock 7800 and play them. How this very simple concept is confusing you is frankly beyond me.

[Lynxpro]

 

I think that you can plug them into a stock 7800 and play them. How this very simple concept is confusing you is frankly beyond me.

 

We don't have an infinite supply of POKEY chips to use in Homebrews in order to satisfy your narrow definition of what constitutes a "7800". The XM case resembles the original designs for Atari Inc.'s planned HSC. It is logical to conclude that Atari Inc. would've ended up including a POKEY, a GUMBY, or an AMY with it if only to standardize all future releases and reduce their costs per cartridge.

[Trebor]

I think that you can plug them into a stock 7800 and play them. How this very simple concept is confusing you is frankly beyond me.

It's not confusing, thank you for clarifying as I understand your stance better.

 

You don't like how the hardware is being utilized and presented for 7800 games that need an XM module for part of the game's features. You rather all the necessary hardware pieces (chips) for each game to be contained inside every individual game cartridge so you can just plug it into a 'stock' Atari 7800.

 

I hope you realize that someone who does not have issue with the way hardware chips are presented for a console's game can still be a 'true classic console gamer'.

[desiv]

Can you plug a 7800XM cartridge into a stock 7800 and play it? No?

Actually, yes you can.

From what I've heard, you plug in the XM cart into a non-XM 7800 and the game plays, just without Pokey sounds (Donkey Kong XM and Bentley, I believe)....

Now, that might not be the case for all the XM games, but it is for some, which means that the issue isn't XM dependent, but game specific. So, if there is a game that won't play at all on a 7800, then that game isn't a 7800 game.

Which is true, it is a 7800XM game.

 

While others are 7800 games with XM sound. (Kind of like O2 "The Voice" or Intellivoice games. They are still games for their systems, but require some extra hardware to play or play fully)

 

desiv

[Jaynz]

Err... looking at Qix... not exactly sure why it needs to be a dynamic bitmap as it isn't in motion at any given time, doesn't scroll, etc. Doesn't the 7800 support a playfield?
Even if you DO use it as a bitmap, there are only 2 bits require per 'spot'... (320x240x2)/8 , assuming each and every single pixel at hi-res (which the arcade doesn't even do), that's 19.2K . Knocking it down to every other pixel gets you down to 4.8K ... A couple of good tricks and you're pretty easily under 4K here... I'm not sure why anyone thinks the XM is necessary for Qix. :S

[The Usotsuki]

The NES did it. I don't think it was with a bitmap.

[Trebor]

I'm not sure why anyone thinks the XM is necessary for Qix. :S

 

For me, I don't think it is "necessary", but it would be better to utilize the Yamaha chip or at least the available POKEY for better than the default TIA sound. Additionally, since this would be an arcade port, having high score saving would be a good feature to include as well.

[Jaynz]

The HSC could be an option, but wouldn't strictly make the game an XM game. As for sound.. this is Qix. TIA can pretty easily duplicate a lot of the 'rhythm' sounds. The only issue MIGHT be the 'death' ringer... but I have faith that the devs here on AtariAge could code a very good version of that for TIA as well. Again, I'm just not seeing anything about THIS game that would REQUIRE the XM.

(I know there's excitement for the XM, but the constant refrain of "This should be on the XM" is very self-destructive, since it limits game releases to those with a 7800 AND an XM, with the latter indefinitely delayed again. Sure, there should be advanced games for it, the Qix really isn't one of them that makes sense.)

[Trebor]

 

Again, I'm just not seeing anything about THIS game that would REQUIRE the XM.

For me, just like "necessary", "require" is not being mentioned either. Still believe though, this game would be best served with Yamaha or POKEY chip being utilized and high score saving in place.

 

TIA could be an alternative, similar to the way Froggie/Beef Drop have been handled.

 

Along those lines, I always wonder how good (bad) Commando or Ballblazer would be with just TIA in place. We have 2600 Commando (Which doesn't sound "horrible"), but much like the difference between the original Donkey Kong on the 2600 and DK VCS, how the chip is handled in some cases is like night and day.

 

If Qix was ever developed though, I wouldn't want the developer getting frustrated or spending (too much of) their time, energy and efforts on trying to make TIA sound great when superior sounding alternatives are present. That kind of struggle is better spent for someone who would develop a 2600 port.

[Jaynz]

Trebor, for practical purposes, the XM is the ultimate elitist schism in an already small audience base. It's neat, and I'm sure those who will get it will love it, but the majority of 7800 fans will NEVER have one, and those guys who get the carts from the store aren't going to be keen to say "For an additional $200, you can get a POKEY chip for Qix!" either. As soon as someone says "Let's make it an XM title", I read "Let's screw the whole 7800 fanbase for our own little clique of fans!"

So, for me, if a game doesn't actually NEED the XM for some key, important reason (and Qix's sound is nowhere near involved enough to warrant Pokey, much less Yamaha!), then I don't really want to see it go there and be exclusive to it. Besides, when I want a 7800 game, I'm shooting for the 7800 experience. I already have a NES, Colecovision, et al... so I, personally, don't really see the benefit of an 'XM Port' when I can already get the NES title or the arcade version. Save the XM for an expanded 7800 experience, not to try to fake being an NES.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Jaynz

[PacManPlus]

Hi Guys:

 

You actually *do* need the XM's memory for this game.

It has to do with the player being able to draw lines just about anywhere on the playfield. Because of this, each zone can only be 1 scan line high (just like if we were emulating vector graphics with a line drawing routine). That ends up taking a *lot* of memory for the entire screen.

 

I could explain more, but I'm at work at the moment...

 

Bob

[AtariFriend]

Hey Guys:

 

I could explain more, but I'm at work[ing on XM Qix] at the moment...

 

Bob

 

[Jinks]

I dont have an nes never will buy one. (Not into flicker graphics)I have lots of modern systems that can blow away the 7800 and nes. But I opted to buy a xm cause I like the 7800. And its all about mo power!!

You can buy a small block v8 for pennies but we spend $$$ on crap for our i4 cars like intakes and fartcans and whatnot.. cause we think its cool and we can thats why.. oh and to save pokeys!! Dont you want people of the future to have a poke?

[Trebor]

So, for me, if a game doesn't actually NEED the XM for some key, important reason (and Qix's sound is nowhere near involved enough to warrant Pokey, much less Yamaha!), then I don't really want to see it go there and be exclusive to it...

 

...Save the XM for an expanded 7800 experience, not to try to fake being an NES.

I appreciate your position, still stand by mine respecting superior sound and high score saving support being best, as well as previously mentioned Qix could certainly go the "Beef Drop/Froggie route", if possible.

 

The XM module is not the 7800 "fake being an NES". It is streamlining things for most of the features (Instead of having to add them to every cart for every release that utilizes such features as POKEY or designing a PCB with battery support for things like high score saving). Again, as mentioned earlier, Nintendo went 'XM-like' on the vast majority of its library.

 

This includes the previously mentioned 'XM-like expanding memory' of A*ROM cartridges. Without that "NES XM" feature you lose (at least) the following games from the NES library:

 

Arch Rivals

Battletoads

Battletoads / Double Dragon

Beetlejuice

Cabal

Caesar's Palace

Captain Skyhawk

Cobra Triangle

Commando

Danny Sullivan's Indy Heat

Double Dare

Hollywood Squares

Jeopardy (Entire Series)

Lion King, The

Marble Madness

NARC

Nightmare on Elm Street, A

RC Pro-Am 2

Solar Jetman

Solstice

Super Off Road

Time Lord

Wheel of Fortune (Entire Series)

Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

Wizards and Warriors (Entire Series)

World Games

WWF Wrestlemania

WWF Wrestlemania Challenge

 

Is the NES trying to be something else when utilizing A*ROM? Nintendo did what the XM does on a cart-by-cart basis.

 

Love seeing support for the 7800 overall.

[ZylonBane]

Because of this, each zone can only be 1 scan line high (just like if we were emulating vector graphics with a line drawing routine). That ends up taking a *lot* of memory for the entire screen.

 

The 5200 version of Qix used double-height pixels for the playfield, so the memory required wouldn't be horrendous. But there's probably even more memory required for the fill routine. On the computer version you can actually see the fill algorithm drawing in pixels (slooowly), while the 5200 version seems to work in an off-screen buffer. So yeah... a 7800 version would need extra RAM in the cart or a very small and/or very chunky playfield.

[thursday83]

Played both Volified and Super Qix on the PS2, they both blow compared to Atari 5200 Qix.

[Trebor]

Played both Volified and Super Qix on the PS2, they both blow compared to Atari 5200 Qix.

LOL...That's awesome.

 

[Jaynz]

Bob > Playing the arcade... it cheats for the back-drawing. It's not a per-pixel bitmap, but 4x4 chars from the looks of it (or a larger set of 8x8 chars). (Do a 'death spiral' and you see how it breaks down). So, Bob, here's my challenge.. $100 from me if you keep this to the non-XM ... (though of course optional pokey and HSC for XM use is just fine.)

 

To Clarify: That's a $100 straight-up donation. No other purchase included.

 

Trebor > The difference is that Nintendo didn't require you to buy an add-on for all those games. As I said, the XM may be glorious, but few of even us HERE are going to have one, much less the 7800 base. I would hate to see a fairly basic game like Qix get bumped up out what I would think as 'reasonable' when the XM should probably be looked at more like the 'super mode games' or extended adventures, etc. (In my opinion.)

Edited December 11, 2013 by Jaynz