Similar regulation in non european countries?

[retromod]

Since nearly 6 years the european community is hit by regulations for hobby hardware enthusiasts preventing them to develop hardware for their systems. It seems many people do not know that and work on components so are hit by fees and additional costs if lawyers or simple government get attention of it.

 

Some examples:

1. you need a WEEE (dump) registration and for each product you must pay about 2000 Eur/year:

a) the component has a chassis or housing, having possiblity to run standalone (even if it makes no sense to do so)

b) has a brand

c) extends the functionality of already existing devices (like internal SIO drive for Atari Homecomputers)

d) you produce not for your own needs, it doesn't matter if sold, or given away for nothing

e) if you import devices like joysticks, modules etc from foreign countries and these are not registered you are the one responsible for it

 

fee: about 50.000 Eur if someone inform government. You must register within one year of spreading the hardware. Government prepare to start controls in the future

 

2. you are commercial (so your website requires commercial preparation etc.) if you

a) sell items on regular base

b) offer prices on your website

 

fee: any other seller is able to send you a fee by their lawyers

 

3. you must confirm to RoHS if you spread something to someone. It is not allowed (regulation 2002/95/EG)

a) to built non-compliant RoHS components on current PCB's (so dual pokey is some kind of illegal if deliverd in a full blown PCB or device)

b) solder must be RoHS compliant (spreading PCB's with lead is forbidden)

 

fee: currently unkown but government plans to start implementing control instances

 

4. VDE Compliant if you deliver power supplies, problem if

a) you write your own name to power supplies (so it is a new device which must be certified)

b) you deliver power supplies or devices with batteries you need a certification or the supplier must have one

 

so all these things are preventing development of small series of devices. Many small developer shutdown their business due to the regulations and only offering de-soldered kits. Only large quantities are possible under that condition or you increase your price dramatically. I know many people do not know or don't want to be bothered with it as it immediately stops their (beloved) activities. Nevertheless it is quite illegal and beyond regulations doing so. I remember several projects from local retro clubs. Those people lives which a high risc to loose all they have earned if someone starts to control their activities. That's why it is absolute necessary to check with your local lawyer how to proceed with planned projects.

 

And curious enough if you deliver to different european countries you need different registrations. This was changed a short time ago to allow one representitive for all countries - prior having one for each country you plan to deliver to.

 

Are there similar regulations in other countries? Like US or Brazil etc?

Edited January 8, 2014 by retromod

[Kyle22]

That is the iron grip of socialism. Here in the US, it's not illegal (yet) that I know of. I wouldn't worry about it too much. There are lots of really stupid federal laws here, but they aren't enforced. Example: I have broken federal law many times by removing the gas-wasting, power-robbing catalytic converter from my car. It runs so much better without it.

 

I have also installed european headlights in my car, now I can SEE

 

Never had a problem, and don't expect to.

 

Who do "they" think they are to tell you that you can't be an electronics hobbyist? If you ever have a problem, tell Hitler to get off your property and slam the door in his / their face(s).

Edited January 9, 2014 by Kyle22

[retromod]

That is the iron grip of socialism. Here in the US, it's not illegal (yet) that I know of. I wouldn't worry about it too much. There are lots of really stupid federal laws here, but they aren't enforced. Example: I have broken federal law many times by removing the gas-wasting, power-robbing catalytic converter from my car. It runs so much better without it.

 

I have also installed european headlights in my car, now I can SEE

 

Never had a problem, and don't expect to.

 

Who do "they" think they are to tell you that you can't be an electronics hobbyist? If you ever have a problem, tell Hitler to get off your property and slam the door in his / their face(s).

well that is not so easy because it makes a big difference if you go over red traffic light or take a picture how you went over the red traffic light. If you deliver something it is there. For example the Abbuc produced more than 400 modules of their freezer card. These 400 items are there! So you can not tell them it was not released or you are not the manufacturer. Even if nobody cares it might be someone tell the right people it is there without following the regulations. and that is the big difference it doesn't matter if you pay now or in 1 or 2 years the 50.000 Eur fee for it.

 

You also have the chance to follow the regulations or to clever bypass it:

- so you have the choice to pay the registration and product listing for WEEE. This cost about 2000 Eur/year and must be added to your product costs as all other companies also do. If you do not register then any other company is able to sent you a fee by their laywer as this changes the rule for all players in the economy. Government has also a department to sent requests for verifications.

- you can bypass it by delivering an assembly kit (it is not allowed to offer an assembly service) as many company started since implementation of the rules

- you only provide circuit schematics let other assemble it.

 

But it seems they want to earn money with it and bypassing the global rules in european communicty - there are ways to avoid it but they don't follow them by ignorance. Rules are for all even if created by only big companies. So the only way is to alter them in beeing part of the system not by ignoring them - this makes it only worser as next step is (currently ongoing) to implement departments to verify the regulations.

 

Today it is not that you are the hero to create something others can't, it is more that you may be the stupid guy who do not know why others don't do it . I've a full list of projects but after discussion with my laywer only a few are left as many projects requires registration, certification etc. so costs may explode and product is dead in the water after manufactured.

 

So if you change something on your car or house it is only a quesiton of time if your inssurance department reject any compensation. For example a famous motor sport guy have had a skiing accident. Insurrence department currently checks if he left the road, was too fast or careless. If so they will not pay. So even the root cause for an accident with your car was not the illegal headlights, insurance may not pay. Currently you may have no problem - until your neightbor tell the police what you are doing....

 

Back in history Atari was blocked for years due to the FCC compliant regulation. TI insist on government to alter this regulation and finally have had success to release their own computer the TI99/4a. In France the regulation was that only RGB connected devices are allowed - Atari created such models - to be able to sell devices in that country.

Edited January 9, 2014 by retromod

[ApolloBoy]

Kinda sounds like you're being a worry wort.

 

That is the iron grip of socialism.

Think you can cool it on the political shit? Edited January 9, 2014 by ApolloBoy

[Kyle22]

Think you can cool it on the political shit?

If you can think of a better way to describe a system of bureaucracy and draconian regulations, please be my guest

Edited January 9, 2014 by Kyle22

[retromod]

I agree these regulations are quite strong for hobbiests but it exists. So many thinks and projects are illegal of course. Ignoring is stupid as many do. Instead you must arrange or deliver assemblies.

If you can not then stop your project or hope nobody find out so you get no fee.

[Andromeda Stardust]

That reminds me, I need to stock up on leaded solder while it's still possible to legally obtain in the US.

 

What about hardware mods? For instance, as a service to gamers you mod a PAL Atari 2600 for A/V output and remove the RF module so it will work (somewhat) with modern TVs. Now, the Atari 2600 is not RoHS compliant, but I assume used game shops still legally sell vintage hardware despite it contains lead. Suppose the A/V kits all contain RoHS certified components, but you are installing them on a non-RoSH certified device. Technically you aren't adding any more lead to the Atari than what previously existed, yet you are somehow in violation of the new laws by selling modified non-RoSH compliant vintage Ataris with A/V output, and they could potentially fine you for this, correct?

 

And if I add an aftermarket product to my vehicle, and I have a wreck, the insurance company won't pay for my injuries? You should check out the hot rod scene in the USA. People strip down an old vintage car to the bare chassis, and soup it back up with all kinds of wild and crazy parts. And guess what? It's completely legal to drive "hotrods" on public roads in the US, provided you have proper tags and registration on the vehicle. Please tell me there is some sort of underground hotrod modding culture in the EU. Think of all those awesome vintage German car bodies rusting in a junk yard just waiting to have new life breathed into them?

 

Check out this beauty, the "Red Baron" 100% street legal too, at least here in the states. You can't say something like this wouldn't turn some heads driving down the German Autobahn, or anywhere in the world for that matter...

Edited January 10, 2014 by stardust4ever

[retromod]

That reminds me, I need to stock up on leaded solder while it's still possible to legally obtain in the US.

 

What about hardware mods? For instance, as a service to gamers you mod a PAL Atari 2600 for A/V output and remove the RF module so it will work (somewhat) with modern TVs. Now, the Atari 2600 is not RoHS compliant, but I assume used game shops still legally sell vintage hardware despite it contains lead. Suppose the A/V kits all contain RoHS certified components, but you are installing them on a non-RoSH certified device. Technically you aren't adding any more lead to the Atari than what previously existed, yet you are somehow in violation of the new laws by selling modified non-RoSH compliant vintage Ataris with A/V output, and they could potentially fine you for this, correct?

 

And if I add an aftermarket product to my vehicle, and I have a wreck, the insurance company won't pay for my injuries? You should check out the hot rod scene in the USA. People strip down an old vintage car to the bare chassis, and soup it back up with all kinds of wild and crazy parts. And guess what? It's completely legal to drive "hotrods" on public roads in the US, provided you have proper tags and registration on the vehicle. Please tell me there is some sort of underground hotrod modding culture in the EU. Think of all those awesome vintage German car bodies rusting in a junk yard just waiting to have new life breathed into them?

 

Check out this beauty, the "Red Baron" 100% street legal too...

 

It is allowed to repair or extend the functionality of a existing device, even with non-RoHS compliant components. But it is not allowed to create products or deliver boards with Non-RoHS complaint components (like the Dual-Pokey solution if delivered without assembly).

If you remove the HF modulator and replace them with a "mod" then this is legal. Until you add additional funcitonality which goes beyond the scope of the device for example adding an internal mass device. For those "extensions" you need a WEEE registration. Even for external one. So if someone creates a freezer modul in it's own housing or an external SIO2SD device then you must register of course even if you give it away for nothing. You release a "product" if it has a housing or is not delivered as assembly and this is the important fact.

 

A good example is a company who built PC out of components and sell them. If they use only already registered parts and do not add their own brand on it they must not register for WEEE. If they add their brand, add parts from china etc. they must register. Stupid but current law.

Same like adding a name plate to a power supply - you create a new device so a VDE certification is required.

 

I'm not a laywer and most of these topics are discussed on a wide base in several blogs and extracted from current verdicts or from learning with my laywer. So if you plan to develop something consult your laywer to be on the safe side. I've done so far for my "computer plans" and the project was better to be stopped under this conditions. Same for an external audio/stereo mod: it is simple not possible without registration as it has a housing, may work standalone (on another device). I choose option 2 in killing this project and only delivering internal version which is compliant under this conditions.

 

In europe you can't modfiy a car at will. You need a certification for each component you add or remove. For example if you mod your engine and something happens and the insurrance department get the information it was a modded car then you must pay for all costs. If you register the modification then you may get higher insurrance rates but you are on the safe side if something happens.

[Osgeld]

It is allowed to repair or extend the functionality of a existing device, even with non-RoHS compliant components.

 

 

therefore you are allowed to extend the audio capibilities of a atari without fear, quit your bitchin

[retromod]

Rude tone. Wow specialy these words provide bad attitude for you. If i as a modder deliver something then RoHS is important. If you mod yourself then not until you deliver them to others. Big difference. I feel invited to check all european extensions and business relations here for compliance. I ll bet a lot will shutdown business immediatly.. Like some do after sending friendly hint if this is your intension let me know....

Edited January 11, 2014 by retromod

[Andromeda Stardust]

fee: about 50.000 Eur if someone inform government.

Is that period supposed to be a decimal point or a grouping comma? Surely they can't expect to fine 50 thousand Euros to some guy assembling/modding parts in a basement and selling them on eBay? It's not like he/she is hurting anyone, and provided the seller reports his/her earnings to the government, they can't be cited for tax evasion.

 

Suppose I move to Europe and start selling custom hand built arcade controllers like the ones I made here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30203515@N04/sets/72157629736738048/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30203515@N04/sets/72157634800361528/

 

They were a labor of love and I built them for my own private enjoyment, but if I decided to sell them, in the US at least I have that option. People definitely sell electronic devices on Etsy as well as art, decorative, and clothing items. To my knowledge the only non-RoSH compliant parts I used was the leaded solder, and that could easily be remedied. If every component including solder and parts is lead-free and RoSH compliant, does that make the device RoSH compliant as well? Surely a hobbiest does not have the means to file applications for every "device" he sells? Is it even possible to get hand-made devices approved? Due to the nature of hand-building, each device has subtle differences and if they are made to order, buyers will often commission changes or additions to suit their needs. Would each "variation" need a separate application fee?

Edited January 12, 2014 by stardust4ever

[ApolloBoy]

Is that period supposed to be a decimal point or a grouping comma? Surely they can't expect to fine 50 thousand Euros to some guy assembling/modding parts in a basement and selling them on eBay?

I think those regulations are supposed to be for actual companies that sell in high volumes, not for small hobbyists, hence why I called retromod a worry wort. I've never heard of any hobbyist in Europe getting their project smacked down by regulations nor have I heard them bringing the issue up.

[2600 Forever]

I've never heard of any hobbyist in Europe getting their project smacked down by regulations nor have I heard them bringing the issue up.

 

I ll bet a lot will shutdown business immediatly.. Like some do after sending friendly hint.

 

Major dick alert!

[retromod]

Is that period supposed to be a decimal point or a grouping comma? Surely they can't expect to fine 50 thousand Euros to some guy assembling/modding parts in a basement and selling them on eBay? It's not like he/she is hurting anyone, and provided the seller reports his/her earnings to the government, they can't be cited for tax evasion.

 

Suppose I move to Europe and start selling custom hand built arcade controllers like the ones I made here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30203515@N04/sets/72157629736738048/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30203515@N04/sets/72157634800361528/

 

They were a labor of love and I built them for my own private enjoyment, but if I decided to sell them, in the US at least I have that option. People definitely sell electronic devices on Etsy as well as art, decorative, and clothing items. To my knowledge the only non-RoSH compliant parts I used was the leaded solder, and that could easily be remedied. If every component including solder and parts is lead-free and RoSH compliant, does that make the device RoSH compliant as well? Surely a hobbiest does not have the means to file applications for every "device" he sells? Is it even possible to get hand-made devices approved? Due to the nature of hand-building, each device has subtle differences and if they are made to order, buyers will often commission changes or additions to suit their needs. Would each "variation" need a separate application fee?

No the fee is correct. Remember this regulation was invented by big companies to prevent smaller company do their business. A lot of freelancer shutdown their business after official announcement. So if you sell within europe you must register for weee (dump regulation) and ensure your parts are rohs compliant. Thats the law. Currently is an ongoing discussion to only allow certified companies to release products. I f you spread something you must be compliant. Sure nobody will hit you if you have luck but what if after a half year someone knocks on door? You have one year to register to weee after spreading your products.

 

So if you have a product to release consult your lawyer first. The money spent may be higher than development cost of the hardware but saves a lot of money or simple stop it at all. I ve been in discussion with curt for example about a new atari computer and after concrete plans how to implement it my lawyer told me we can not do that due to planned unit numbers so price must be duplicated (target was 200 eur). Project cancelled, same for external 80 character card, external surround sound modul etc.

Edited January 12, 2014 by retromod

[retromod]

I think those regulations are supposed to be for actual companies that sell in high volumes, not for small hobbyists, hence why I called retromod a worry wort. I've never heard of any hobbyist in Europe getting their project smacked down by regulations nor have I heard them bringing the issue up.

No that is the wrong assumption. Problem is nobody of the smaller companies and freelancer cared during regulation invention so all the big ones decided to add and modify this regulation law to protect their business. Many freelancer shutted down their business or simple drliver only assemblies as all the hobbiest magazines are now doing.

 

If you deliver business to business the one selling to customer is responsible to register and ensure compliance.

 

In europe it is not possible anymore creating or invent small number of devices. Watch the websites offering those devices, if they understood the message they try to avoid the regulation by choosing the right way of releasing. If not you may risk all. 50.000 is fairly high fee. And also some kickstarter projects never reached european customers due to non compliance with regulation.

 

Adding a brand to a device means in term of the weee regulation for example to create a new product requiring registration. If you do not do that and ensure all parts are previously registered at weee org you are able to avoid that. Today it is not enough to be talented to built hardware you need good lawyers as well to ensure your business is not at risk.

Edited January 12, 2014 by retromod

[Andromeda Stardust]

That sucks. In the US I believe you only need to file an application to have your device UL listed, and that primairly applies to devices which run on AC line voltage. Devices that run on batteries or use low voltage adapters I believe do not need a UL listing, although I could be wrong. If it uses a low voltage wall adapter, only the adapter needs UL listing, and these are available cheaply from many manufacturers. There are also FCC regulations to ensure that devices do not emit harmful interferance, but I've not heard of the FCC bullying people unless they are building illegal radio transmitters. If your device does not transmit RF energy, you're probably safe. Like EU, certain devices are illegal but can still be sold as kits. Things that emit RF like FM transmitters and long range wifi antennas, or dangerous items like Tesla Coils, etc, are only sold as kits so that if a user injurs him/herself or creates harmful interferance, liability is on the end user and not the company selling it.