Zynaps from C64

[José Pereira]

Hi.

I am playing and seeing videos of this since yesterday and can't find anywhere it's levels map, only the ZX version.

I have some ideas and would like to build something like it on A8.

I just need the map because I wanna remake it in some points like the resizing enemys ships, some the same and other weapons and powerups, some different gameplay in some points,...

 

Lets say that it can't be exactly like C64 because of ours A8 limitee number of hardware sprites but I just thought in a way to deal with that... just think that I wanna use almost same grounds and enemys but moving different and my idea for them and the weapons can get into, maybe one the best untill now 2D horizontal scroller shooter on A8 .

I just want to have the grounds map and remake the other things going in the same way I did the production/history/logic in X:8...

 

 

Anybody knows if there is a C64 map or anyone knows how and kindly could help in extracting and post here the map?

Thanks.

José Pereira

[bfollett]

Is this what you're after?

 

http://wos.meulie.net/pub/sinclair/games-maps/z/Zynaps_2.png

 

Just found it using google search/images

 

Bob

[José Pereira]

Thanks but that one I have, its from the ZX version.

If no other way I get the C64 chars/tiles and build the map by hand following that one.

[Lynxpro]

You can do software sprites on the A8. Don't let the C64 "win" by default.

[José Pereira]

Yes its around that but in what I have in mind we loose in some parts but win on others.

Lets say that in what I learn and got on X:8 I wanna go now for a shooter where we have also grounds on the middle of screen and enemys on them, by now its still no Armalyte but we'll see ...

Just want to do something at the same time Xuel is busy and after the coming surprises(s) maybe I have this one 'cooked' to show .

[José Pereira]

You can do software sprites on the A8. Don't let the C64 "win" by default.

Yes, we'll have to go for soft sprites for the enemys but...

I passed all weekend and I got what I want (but still no map). I want to use the same game levels map but I'll redone the sprites of the enemys and powerups, do some changes on the weapons available.

In A8 I want to finally get the interleaved charsets I am talking for years going into 4charlines/4charsets. The only one untill now that tried it was CreatureXL in his Har'em game but I think he only used what he really needs at that was 2interleaved charsets.

 

Starting with the begining I have the loading as a simple Zynaps logo that can be used during loading (after we'll see if with G2F and/or RasterConverter we can get the coloured screen with the ship):

 

 

On the Zynaps in-game my idea is to have our ship as PMGs Multicolour then use the other two for the Bomb/Missiles of our ship and these Missiles on the stars.

The enemys are soft sprites but they are in a such a way they look good and show some difference between enemys and ground, so we have:

PF0: dark colour and PF1: always white (these two are in grounds and on the enemys)

PF2 its on grounds (and also some enemy ships and PF3 on enemys. Powerups will have in its center the PF2/PF3 blinking.

(white will be used for the shots like in C64 moving in char steps)

 

Then we'll see how many 'enemys soft sprites vs c.p.u.' we can have on screen (if we need more than we may go into Narrow Mode 32Bytes wide screen).

I also remade them to fit into 2x2chars size because if I remade our ship to be 12->10pixels wide then it makes more sense the enmys also be less sized and indeed I think they'll be much more proportional with the screen gfxs. But of course that I also and mostly had to do that because of the number of chars and c.p.u. (and it will always be better if we will have to go into a 32Bytes wide screen).

 

We can't have enemys over grounds but I think that if we are at a 2D and our ship can't go over ground then why enemys can? To get better/different we'll have some other/new weapons and some ground cannons/lasers and some new weapons for our ship (like I did in X: 8 ).

Other important thing is that to turn this game possible, like I said at the begining, is to use that Interleaved Charsets. Although already used by CreatureXL on his Har'em game (but only with 2charsets I think) this will be the first time on A8 because it will be in 4interleaved and with more sprites on screen (if there's no c.p.u. then I'll go into 32Bytes wide Narrow screen mode).

 

 

 

Some screens I remade (left on A8 vs C64 on the right):

 

 

Edited June 9, 2014 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

And I forgot to say that I didn't made the bottom panel because it have to be all remade.

Why? Because I have to think what weapons,... new and the gameplay and I haven'tdecided it yet.

Edited June 9, 2014 by José Pereira

[Creature XL]

 

In A8 I want to finally get the interleaved charsets I am talking for years going into 4charlines/4charsets. The only one untill now that tried it was CreatureXL in his Har'em game but I think he only used what he really needs at that was 2interleaved charsets.

 

Correction:

 

"HAR'em" was a quick hack. It is using 3 sets. One for the Top gfx one for all the soft sprites (you might have noticed the empty background ) and one for the bottom.

"Heli in the Cave" uses the interleaved sets. It was first tested in my "NYD2013" entry. As said multiple times already, I really like this "mode".

Edited June 9, 2014 by Creature XL

[José Pereira]

 

Correction:

 

"HAR'em" was a quick hack. It is using 3 sets. One for the Top gfx one for all the soft sprites (you might have noticed the empty background ) and one for the bottom.

"Heli in the Cave" uses the interleaved sets. It was first tested in my "NYD2013" entry. As said multiple times already, I really like this "mode".

 

Yes, I wanted to say Heli in the Caves.

Didn't you said that you went for two interleaved charsets because that was enough for you?

Edited June 9, 2014 by José Pereira

[Creature XL]

 

Yes, I wanted to say Heli in the Caves.

Didn't you said that you went for two interleaved charsets because that was enough for you?

 

 

Depends what you mean

It uses 4 alternating char sets. BUT the char definitions (the gfx) are the same in "set 0" and "set 2" and, obiviously, in set1/set3 as well.

But you need the memory for 4 sets. The reason is simply to be able to place the tiles more freely. It is possible to use different tiles in set0/set2 (and set1/set3), however, then you can place these tiles only in 5 possible "tile lines". And as "HitC" was rushed and the editor for the maps was coded by me as well ( C# with .NET-Framework) I made the editor very simple (that is the reason I haven't released the editor).

BTW, I will definitely "steal" the idea from the "Dimo editor" with the colors besides the map screen.

As I have DLIs in each char line anyways and setting color changes by hand (in the code) was too awkward

[Mclaneinc]

Jose, why don't you learn to code, you seem to have the spare time and a very good grasp of the technical side of a display so it seems logical you should learn to code. You could then do your own stuff, no one would expect instant wonderful games but you could put in to practice your idea's in your way. You may already be coding for all I know I just take it that you are not as X:8 states it was your idea but not your coding?

 

Anyway, I reckon you would take to it like a duck to water and produce some real good looking stuff.

[José Pereira]

Too old to ever get anything good, understand me that if just learn to ever produce 2 or 3 simple games like a man walking or a simple ship moving don't really encourage me.

I prefer my contribution and personal talking with some coders, last year came Xuel and I even ever thought in him and what a really nice and big surprise !...

I always had some games going on or not with some guys but untill now not a single one gets to final, but who knows these or others like X:8 don't happen?

[Mclaneinc]

I'm sure things will get finished, keep pumping the idea's at them, don't forget to design some original graphics as well, porting is all well and nice but there's nothing that beats a fresh new game.

[kiwilove]

I will always say that - if you are going to the bother of porting a C64 (or whatever) game to the A8 - then, also it will be possible to improve? upon the graphics and make it look even better? Or try to.

I am a bit lazy these days - and I much prefer to tune up someone else's work, than go ahead and try to come up with some original graphics instead. But I am a very slow worker and need a lot of time to do so...

While it is not easy to do - I think making the sprites multicoloured with separate colours (if possible) is desirable. Also do other such things, etc etc etc.

The same for anything else to add, and tinker with - but with all these little changes/improvements and attention to details - ends up involving a lot of extra work - but in the end is I think worthwhile - because then, you've put your own stamp/mark on it - instead of it being simply a straight port over.

 

Of course - it is not easy for someone to learn 6502 assembler language, to also learn how the Atari A8 hardware works - then to gain the experience required, so as to really push this hardware to it's limits - to become like another Archer McLean, Paul Woakes, or whatever... It'll require an awful lot of time, dedication and hard work...

Most people are already busy with their own life - with what that entails - and simply don't have the time or energy to pursue their Atari 8-bit dreams...

It would be profitable instead to develop on the current new/latest platforms that targets a much wider audience - not that I know how to do that? I simply don't....

 

Harvey

[Creature XL]

 

Of course - it is not easy for someone to learn 6502 assembler language, to also learn how the Atari A8 hardware works - then to gain the experience required, so as to really push this hardware to it's limits - to become like another Archer McLean, Paul Woakes, or whatever... It'll require an awful lot of time, dedication and hard work...

Most people are already busy with their own life - with what that entails - and simply don't have the time or energy to pursue their Atari 8-bit dreams...

It would be profitable instead to develop on the current new/latest platforms that targets a much wider audience - not that I know how to do that? I simply don't....

 

 

The huge amount of free time and motivation most people (like me) had in their youth helps a lot and is (for most) gone when they pass the 30 year mark (or discover girls ).

On the other side the 6502 is not so complicated. Oh boy - did I struggle with the 68k and the enormous address space of the Atari ST and all its vectors....

 

However, if one starts today he should not expect to make the next big game in a few month.

I think a year of experimenting with Atari, learning how to debug and other stuff one never thinks about.

Although, starting to code would be good for everyone talking to developers, as was pointed out to Emkay, José and maybe others since years.

Only then, they will see that it is not as easy as the "theroy" makes it look like. For example, PMG overlays are simple to speak about, but managing the data and the rendering of these is not.

 

 

Slightly back to topic:

Maybe time to pull out and improve the "HAR'em" engine after my current project...

[Heaven/TQA]

68000 is a bitch esp. odd/even adress access... I tried to enter ST scene couple of months ago and same reason I had back in the 90s... missing ANTIC, PM and hate the weird bitplane issues... plus "bombing" issues

 

interleaved sprites was this?

 

ABCD ;sprite 1

ABCD

ABCD

[José Pereira]

I will always say that - if you are going to the bother of porting a C64 (or whatever) game to the A8 - then, also it will be possible to improve? upon the graphics and make it look even better? Or try to.

I am a bit lazy these days - and I much prefer to tune up someone else's work, than go ahead and try to come up with some original graphics instead. But I am a very slow worker and need a lot of time to do so...

While it is not easy to do - I think making the sprites multicoloured with separate colours (if possible) is desirable. Also do other such things, etc etc etc.

The same for anything else to add, and tinker with - but with all these little changes/improvements and attention to details - ends up involving a lot of extra work - but in the end is I think worthwhile - because then, you've put your own stamp/mark on it - instead of it being simply a straight port over.

 

Of course - it is not easy for someone to learn 6502 assembler language, to also learn how the Atari A8 hardware works - then to gain the experience required, so as to really push this hardware to it's limits - to become like another Archer McLean, Paul Woakes, or whatever... It'll require an awful lot of time, dedication and hard work...

Most people are already busy with their own life - with what that entails - and simply don't have the time or energy to pursue their Atari 8-bit dreams...

It would be profitable instead to develop on the current new/latest platforms that targets a much wider audience - not that I know how to do that? I simply don't....

 

Harvey

Hi Harvey,

 

I also have the idea that the game ned to be changed in some parts. Indeed, like it is on C64 can't be on A8 because 2D scrolling shooters and sprites aren't 'A8 friendly' because our lack of hardware sprites.

And yes, I still have to create new gfxs in certain partsaccording to my likes and most of all the ships sprites. To have more c.p.u. and chars on our limited charset(s) I'll re-done all them (indeed many of this and other type of games sometimes the sprites look bigger/un-proportional with the gfxs because they3Bytes/12, 2:1 ratio pixels just because they can and in some, if it was me, I would had done them in 9or10 pixels wide and there are games on C64 going this way although I don't remember any right now).

 

Going into soft sprites and they can cross grounds gfxs then we have to use GR.15/GR.7 (4colours bitmap mode) because of the PF2&PF3 clash that we'll have if using GR.12/GR.13 charmode.

Indeed and after thinking I also came to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense that enemys can cross and we can't. So if this game come into A8 it will not have enemys cross grounds but will have other new features...

 

I also plan to add new weapons in, more or like the ones in X:8 and maybe even have the same sort of ground cannons/lasers.

But the grounds gfxs are already very good on C64 and that part it can be and better it will be the same. Of course I can change some pixels 'here and there' to fit more in my likes but, as you all know, I'm not a gfxs creator/designer so I cannot ever build a complete scrolling levels map.

 

 

José Pereira.

[kiwilove]

Hi Jose

 

We all have our different likes and dislikes etc etc. i looked at a video of Zynaps running - and while some of the designs I liked, and didn't think too much of others...

I still couldn't see too much of the game that stood out - to make it worthwhile porting over.

I did play some C64 games back in the day... One that did stand out - was Sanxion, though it's gameplay was very simple.

Of course, the grand daddy of such shooters would have to be - R-Type, which would be very hard to port to 8-bit. The SNES did have an excellent conversion, as too PC-Engine (which I never checked out, though I have had the emulator and roms).

I've always been a fan of Scramble because in it's time - it was the first? and set the trend. I probably much prefer to see a faithful conversion of this - plus see it enhanced...

 

I think Paul has set out the possibilities - and I do wonder if there is someone out there, who like to do as much with a side scrolling shooter? ie. try to push the envelope of what is possible? It is a lot of hard work, and will take a lot of time - though Paul has said the horizontal scrolling format is harder to work with, versus the vertical.

 

Tail of Beta Lyrae does show a great deal going on in it - but I think most people don't like the colours, nor the graphics mode used (too blocky)...

 

I do like to see projects reaching a high standard - say instead of falling short...

I am more amazed by so many games that have serious design flaws - which should have been ironed out before it's final version (release). And most of these could have been fixed - I think. I think it is the case of not seeing the wood because of the trees. That when people work so long (and hard) on a project - they can't see it from a fresh perspective - and not the obvious flaw(s) - that are fixable...

 

Some may say - oh, everyone's a critic - and I can't be bothered to take note of what they have to say... But fair criticism is always valid - and if you want to end up with a masterpiece - you of course, need to look at it with a critical eye, and go about fixing up what needs to be done with it. A project usually goes through a tweaking period anyway - isn't that why you make demos of it - playable WIP - in which you add more and more to it, while tweaking it all the time... If some things work - you don't change that, but if parts of it are not working satisfactorily, you have to change those parts - to improve it, to a decent standard.

[Creature XL]

I do like to see projects reaching a high standard - say instead of falling short...

 

Here is however a problem when it comes to hobby development.

The last bit which makes a game near perfect takes months.

And this work will never respected and is way too boring and (sometimes) very hard for the coders.

"Back in the day" when there was competition and the coders were paid it was no problem, as those tiny bits towards perfection could mean a huge increase in the selling numbers.

Check out the difference between "Heli in the Caves" ABBUC-Edition vs. final (which is still far from perfect).

Almost 4 months of (hobby) coding work. When you now consider the ABBUC version was maybe 4-5 month.

A perfect version of "HitC" would have probably taken two years to develop.

Have to add that I was mostly working alone (coding, laying out rooms and enemies and so on).

[Mark Wright]

I agree with Mclaneinc - it's never too late to learn how to realise your dreams, and this is exactly the right place to get definitive advice from defacto A8 veterans. There's nothing to match the satisfaction and excitement that comes when YOU have personally made something happen, whether it's overcoming a complex problem in order to make the IMPOSSIBLE possible, or even being the one who's tried enough to categorically state that something is indeed sadly IMPOSSIBLE. Just as someone like Bill Hogue or Frank Cohen taught themselves 6502 30 years (or so) ago, you too can learn the same way - but with the added benefit of all the instant help that was unavailable to them, together with traditional resources like De Re Atari, etc.

 

Jose, have you ever given it a try? I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I fear it's the only way you'll ever see one of your many "flight of fancy" proposals come to life. Or, most likely, not.

 

I'm sure Jose won't take offence, but as has been pointed out so many, many times before, by coders who've earned the right to have THE definitive LAST WORD when yet another of these "this is easy to make!!" threads is started, it's one thing to grasp the GTIA specs/limitations/workarounds enough to generate a static image as a prospective example of how something might look/work, but ENTIRELY ANOTHER (which is seemingly beyond comprehension) to bring that attractive screenshot to life, by even the most dedicated, respected and admired MAC/65 junkies who are actually still able to focus on a screen/move their hands/not require a constant commode...

 

There's obviously quite a bit of effort put into these constant "proof of concept" threads (and of course I'd love to see A8 versions of titles like Bubble Bobble, Ghosts 'n' Goblins, The Last Ninja, Renegade, Pang, Rainbow Islands, Paperboy, Elite (and so on)) but, for the love of Colleen, I can't be the only who sighs at seeing yet another one. If only all that effort could be channelled into making something useful! It's long been established that coders don't approach a project by creating a mock screenshot and working from there, but these threads are always the same pattern: mock screen posted with eye-catching "C64 GAME!!!" thread title, concept quickly shot down in flames by an expert, war of attrition begins...

 

Sorry if I've overstepped the mark here, but I think it's high time that someone put down their G2F and picked up their Mapping The Atari!