The Ultimate role of XEP-80

[576XE]

Hello Atarians!

 

Resently I wondered about the role of XEP-80.

 

If they thought that it's some way to new era or if they thought that it's only 80 Col. tool etc.

Evidently that it can't be video breakthrough into video powered world.

Really it's artifact itself.

 

They drops tens of projects. May be hundreds. Why XEP-80 ?

 

[_The Doctor__]

Because the original idea was to use all it's capability and then the Tramiel anthem of just hurry up and get something done and out of the way so we can get back to my Jackintosh and put all our efforts on it, his screw the 8-bit mentality kicked into high gear! The new machine under him was to be supreme.

[576XE]

Are you think that There are gone a times of 8-bit era?

I mean extensive way of evolution?

Now they goes to 1024 bits.

[576XE]

I'm sorry,

I mean - They prefered the extencive way of evolution.

[+Allan]

Because the original idea was to use all it's capability and then the Tramiel anthem of just hurry up and get something done and out of the way so we can get back to my Jackintosh and put all our efforts on it, his screw the 8-bit mentality kicked into high gear! The new machine under him was to be supreme.

Was this started under Warner? I thought this was an Atari Corp. thing?

 

Allan

[_The Doctor__]

Too far along to ditch, not far along enought to be perfect. It got paired back to make it barely useful and cheap, the Tramiel touch.

[576XE]

I'm thinking about 8-bit video output from joystick port when they have full 16 bit from ECI/CART.

Where is design and where is the sence of measure?

 

Yes, I'm READY to beleive that this scrued palindrom 'Power without a Price -> without Power...' is the matter.

But I can't beleive that the cost of Monitor was in the same range that the cost of little screen TV.

 

The slogan kills itself and no replacement at all.

Not so friendly to 8-bit Atarians ...

 

Just making money I think. So pity.

[+Stephen]

The XEP-80 was entirely junk in every way imaginable. They used a colour chip, and wired it to only display mono. They didn't use the parallel port. Even using the joystick, they wrote a shit driver which allowed for maybe 40% of the true device throughput. The printer interface was slow and not supported. Composite only output, not even separate luma/chroma. I've tried 8 different displays with mine, and NONE can see all 25 lines.

 

I don't have a single good thing to say about this turd of a device.

[576XE]

Hi Stephen.

 

Thank you for some new (for me) features that the device has.

I never heared that it's chip has color abilityes.

[_The Doctor__]

I had a driver for the printer port and it did work, someone here has or had the faster 80 column driver. Another fellow started the initial work on bringing color back. The joystick port is way more capable than I ever imagined. This is all in another thread here on Atari Age.

Edited November 12, 2014 by _The Doctor__

[+Stephen]

I'm not knocking the joystick port in any way. The fact that is is so usable, is just another the XEP-80 was a steaming turd. If we can later modify it, cool. All that means is Atari released a stinky turd.

[_The Doctor__]

Yes it could be a stinky turd, but I polished the turd and made use of it, I used a monitor and a good quality Monitor class television back in the day and the XEP made my Atari hydra possible, Bobterm allowed dual screens one menu one terminal... I liked it. I also liked putting read.me files up on the XEP while I went about doing what the read me said on the other screen... I guess it depends on what you thought of using it for... I found it very useful and highly readable, I used the XEP version of Atariwriter and some other hacked editors at the time. It didn't take much space with the modem sitting on top of it and since it printed just fine I ditched the other interface box. It made the space look much tidier.

Edited November 13, 2014 by _The Doctor__

[+David_P]

If you're still developing on real hardware, the XEP-80 is a nice debugging tool. You can send debugging info to the XEP-80 screen - and if the computer crashes, the XEP-80 screen will still display the last information (unless you power cycle it, or power cycle the Atari & have it reset the XEP-80). Of course, you lose RAM and cycles to do so, but depending on what you're doing that may not be a big consideration.

[+wood_jl]

Because the original idea was to use all it's capability and then the Tramiel anthem of just hurry up and get something done and out of the way so we can get back to my Jackintosh and put all our efforts on it, his screw the 8-bit mentality kicked into high gear! The new machine under him was to be supreme.

 

"Screw the 8-bit mentality" - that's just silly.

 

There were a couple of incentives in play, and they're both related - to making money.

 

(1) Make shit as cheap as possible that will well (make money)

(2) Don't go belly-up (make money)

 

There wasn't some "anti-8-bit" mentality. That lies within the imagination of fanciful 8-bit enthusiasts (of which I am one) who would like to imagine an alternate universe in which additional A8 hardware would have sold well, made a profit, and been a success. That fantasy clashes directly with the *fact* that by 1985-1986, 8-bit computers were all largely obsolete (or perceived to be obsolete), and that fact was exacerbated (particularly in Atari's situation) by the fact that the Atari8 computers - no matter how wonderful (and I do think they are such) - were never big sellers, to begin with.

 

By 1985, software vendors were abandoning the A8 platform, in droves. Don't believe me? Look at the software releases post-1984, where the C64 got a version of just about everything, and the A8 did not receive a version of the same software.

 

The Atari 520ST ("Jackintosh") single-handedly saved the company. Don't believe me? Read the upcoming book "Atari Corp: Business Is War" which shall surely explain it to you. Had Atari Corp *not* concentrated on the "Jackintosh" (codename: "Rock Bottom Price") they would have gone belly-up, in short order. That is fact, and the annals of history have clearly recorded it.

 

The reason that the XEP80 is a piece of shit has less to do with a hypothetical "Tramiel-disdain" for the A8 line than it did with "make shit as cheap as possible." As much as Tramiel (and any other successful businessman) likes money, if there'd have been a buck (or lots of bucks, rather) in making more A8 offerings, that is exactly what they would have done. Unlike the end-user who may have some emotional attachment to the hardware (or a particular line of hardware), the Tramiels were simply in business to make money. "Screw the 8-bit" is hardly a worthy business strategy. "Make stuff that sells" is. In 1985, that was the 520ST for Atari, whether it meets with one's likings, or not.

 

But the criticism of the Tramiel-era to include the cheapest shit-components possible - still stands Ask anyone who has ever delaminated a cheap XE-era board and lifted a trace, or had an XE with bad RAM. Very common occurrences. However, they were not part of a "Screw the A8" mentality. It was all about BUCK$.

[_The Doctor__]

I spoke directly with Mr. Tramiel and that was his mentality during negotiation for for a dealership, minimal buy in was $50,000 usd at the time.. I know exactly what the man said and how he said it. Read all the fantasy books you want. Tramiel was all about the dollar and all about what projects were 'his'. As soon as Atari was cash rich the JTS swindle kicked in and his family cashed out... You have no idea how many dealers lost everything because of this 'saviour'. Atari was power without the price and the best, .... by the time he was done Atari wast cheap sh*t that didn't meet the test...the successes were in spite of not because of his efforts. The battles that were fought just to make the stuff as good as it was you couldn't fathom, he would have used the thinest tinfoil to do the job if he could have gotten away with it.. I am glad the engineers and other workers fought so hard to give us a modicum of quality and durability. He was only looking to have stuff last about 3 and half years mtbf max. I love the 8-bit, I love the tt030, I love the Falcon(but he cheaped the sh*t out of it as well look up the original specs and ideas), I enjoy the Jag. I enjoyed the STe but had to clean the crap out of them and install the metal bars and clips on every last one of them so I wouldn't have to drop check the dang things all the time just to make em run. Jack wasn't going to pay for the fix so all our customers and friends got the mods and fixes done at cost or for nearly nothing out of respect and standing by what we sold. They were aware of many things and were looking to cash out and that's about it. The JTS merger what a crock... call it the Jack Tramiel Swap, take your stock and leave you with nothing, Closed system, closed mind, closed corperation.

Edited November 13, 2014 by _The Doctor__

[576XE]

No mean at all.

 

It was only a theoretical question!!!

 

I just can see the reason ...

Hawing two parallel monitors explain all the things!

 

It's the real purpose!!!

 

I can have menue on one and can have a document in work on another display!

 

Today, having two displays we can have users manual on one display and real workspace on another.

 

Many thanks _The Doctor_ I never thought that Atari is silly balloon.

 

I beleive that no one of us dreamed to be in Mr. Tramiel's place. Hard times!

And...

 

Don't kill the pianoist!!!

Edited November 13, 2014 by 130XE

[576XE]

By the way...

I think that 8-bit mentality came to us only in 2010 and further...

Yes! I don't mention about DLT etc. (I read about thair HD for Atari in early 90th.)

[ricortes]

Must fight it! Must stay away! ARRRGHHH! I can't resist

 

Ultimately consumers don't care. A lot of hardware nerds do but it is a dick flopping contest that the average public finds too boring for words while we, being nerds ourselves, shout "Them's fighting words!"

 

If the Atari 8 bit was shrunk to 3"x5", had a touch screen, ran Android OS, and you could make phone calls with it, there would be 3 billion devices. To a large extent, 80 column CRT monitors, keyboards, 300 Watt power supplies, et al, are going the way of the nerd and the dodo.

 

Strangely enough, Apple seems to figure out consumers better then Atari ever did. They still run no better then 3rd behind MS and Google if market penetration is your measure of success. My SO certainly doesn't care. I get phone calls 'my computer is slow' or 'why did my home screen change', not 'Is my computer running on Intel or 6502?" The consumers out number us a million to one. I still run desktops of course, you all still probably run desktops too. My SO hasn't turned on her desktop since I got her a laptop. I think that was 1.7 GHz AMD ago.<2002?> Had I ever forced an XEP80 on her, there would be no joy in Mudville.

 

Atari made an XEP80 when what everyone at large wanted was a 3"x5" touch screen you could make telephone calls with or a laptop. It serves no useful purpose other then historical like ox drawn carts or a flat earth. This is coming from a guy who came within a hair's breadth of buying a Kaypro 2 yesterday.

 

I hope you take this somewhat humorously as that is the spirit in which I wrote it.

[_The Doctor__]

I always like when people compare a device like the ipod touch of 2008, 2007 if you were iCrazy and could get an early release.......against devices from 1986-1987 and act like they existed as the exact same time.... Makes the Atari seem timeless . Like I said It might have been a turd but polished and used to serve your purposes made it very useful in it's time. Who knows with the right mods it could be very useful again for a geek like me or my kids, since I have always had a hydra and wouldn't go back ever since I FIRST did it with my Atari. I never needed a 300 watt power supply for my 8-bit. I don't think with everything running it used more than a couple of light bulbs worth of power.

[_The Doctor__]

What you talkin' bout I still use a compupro s-100 and adds+ terminal ! .sh party!

[+wood_jl]

I spoke directly with Mr. Tramiel and that was his mentality during negotiation for for a dealership, minimal buy in was $50,000 usd at the time.. I know exactly what the man said and how he said it.

Awesome! There is so much unfounded speculation, but it's really great to talk to someone who spoke with Tramiel himself. That fact and occurrence in itself should make for an interesting anecdote, as not that many people - and certainly few who still care about Atari - and even fewer yet who on AtariAge - had the opportunity to speak with Tramiel, directly. How intriguing! DO TELL about this!

 

 

Read all the fantasy books you want.

 

Actually, the *later* book isn't out yet. The authors regularly post here, and they seem reasonably well-researched, although I confess I have not read the even the first book, although I am looking forward to it. I would tend to reserve judgement on calling them "fantasy books," as you have pulled the trigger. It's a shame, then, that the authors didn't interview you as a credible source of Atari information (as you seem to believe yourself to be and in light of your dismissal of their work as "fantasy books", then, eh? I'm not judging, as I have (1) yet to read the books and (2) make no claims myself as to having any actual Atari dealings as you do. You do offer a markedly-different perspective than they do, and a quite a blunt dismissal of their works, I'll say.

 

Tramiel was all about the dollar and all about what projects were 'his'. As soon as Atari was cash rich the JTS swindle kicked in and his family cashed out...

I have no doubt Tramiel was all about the dollar, and little else. That shows in XE build quality, and so many other ways. But the JTS "swindle" was *years* (about 12, 1984 to 1996) down the road from stuff like the 520ST and the XEP80, was it not?

 

You have no idea how many dealers lost everything because of this 'saviour'.

I remember my local Atari dealer just NOT BEING SENT STOCK - meaning the best-selling (most profitable at the time) stock - the 520ST and 1040ST - in about 1986-1987. They ended up mail-ordering stock at mail-order prices to resell at retail - to stay in business - because Atari wouldn't send small dealers any stock. Everything went to (1) Europe (more profitable) and (2) LARGE dealers (big profitable deals). So I don't think Atari maintained their dealer network very well at all, but Commodore (under Jack and after) seemed to make similar moves.

 

 

Atari was power without the price and the best, .... by the time he was done Atari wast cheap sh*t that didn't meet the test...the successes were in spite of not because of his efforts. The battles that were fought just to make the stuff as good as it was you couldn't fathom, he would have used the thinest tinfoil to do the job if he could have gotten away with it..

Agreed - he sure did! Look at the cheap RAM in the 130XE, as well as the motherboard. Before that, look at the tinfoil-laminated cereal box that was the RF shield in the C64 (and 1541) that retained unnecessary heat, etc. Look at all of the C64 power supplies that went bad. Look at ST drive mechs - the absolutely, positively lowest-bid stuff they could get their hands on.

 

 

I am glad the engineers and other workers fought so hard to give us a modicum of quality and durability. He was only looking to have stuff last about 3 and half years mtbf max. I love the 8-bit, I love the tt030, I love the Falcon(but he cheaped the sh*t out of it as well look up the original specs and ideas), I enjoy the Jag. I enjoyed the STe but had to clean the crap out of them and install the metal bars and clips on every last one of them so I wouldn't have to drop check the dang things all the time just to make em run.

I know what you mean. I have some STs with metal clips holding the chips down. Hah, I'd almost forgotten about that problem, but had it in the old day.

 

Jack wasn't going to pay for the fix so all our customers and friends got the mods and fixes done at cost or for nearly nothing out of respect and standing by what we sold. They were aware of many things and were looking to cash out and that's about it. The JTS merger what a crock... call it the Jack Tramiel Swap, take your stock and leave you with nothing, Closed system, closed mind, closed corperation.

You had an Atari dealership!?? DO TELL! Love these stories.

[_The Doctor__]

I didn't reference any book specifically, I don't think anybody writing the books care to know about the dealers or the neglection of the dealer network.

 

We not only sold Atari products but repaired and upgraded them, I also handled systems for the post office as well as dental supply companies etc.

 

I ran a couple of BBS systems.

 

I spoke with Tramiel about dealership, costs, and the ability to continue with Atari... it was all business. He did not want to continue with the 8-bit line, he did not want to pursue the Amiga contract(putting our speculations to bed, little did we know he wasn't even aware of it and would use it to help him in a legal battle not to reclaim it but to help him out of some squabble over things with his old company), he just wanted to push the ST line, we bounced some numbers back and forth, he wanted a closed system period. Everything sealed behind the tamper proof sticker, Making custom systems for specialized industry less if not practically impossible. This would force clients to go directly to Atari, whom was not equipped to handle all the specialty market stuff. Result no more specialized market. I was only concerned with the business I was active in and with. I can't speak to everyone else's experiences save a couple dealers, sources, and mail houses. I couldn't even get a Falcon when they were saying sales were not there.. hell the sales were there just no product, I had to order them from a mail house/music store and drop ship them to the customer! When it arrived we would get the call and set them up with whatever they needed, the damn Falcon didn't have the same cart port either! It was suppose to clock the same as the TT030 or be faster, instead it wasn't like that at all. When TOAD finally had one they were kind enough to set it up with more memory and a pc card and ship it for us. There really isn't much to tell, I didn't figure anybody would care about us talking... why would they. If I had been smart I could have transcribed it all down or even recorded it but again it was business talk. Inconsequential at the time. Not a big deal.

 

Many dealers were treated like crap and indeed had to mail order some product. All document handling systems were all moved to the ST line and would have external boxes attached instead of having it internal, far less attractive...

 

The money Atari had at the end wasn't from sales, it was from lawsuits Atari won, Jack knew this, (even if we didn't) sold stock in Atari, then worked on the merger... Jacks crew cashed out. Everyone else was left with worthless paper. That's the way it went.. I don't care to re-live it. I am certain people writing books can track down a ton of dealers/re-sellers/ or businesses that relied on Atari with alot more to tell than us. I don't see any number of dealers/repair shops/re-sellers/devs really being mentioned in any event. I suspect the stories will all be far more interesting and kind of the same (at least near the end).

 

I am glad to see yourself and others mostly can see or agree with what I have had to say.

 

If I come off negative, It's just because losing one's shirt can be a bad experience.

 

I love these machines, I love the people, I loved what Atari was, and I love the dedicated community that is here and feels the same.

 

The last companys I had any dealings with Atari equipment that I had Title with were Progressive Systems Group inc. and American Dental supply. PSG went all PC, ADS went all Apple.

 

Last I knew I had ADS last machines minus the TT030 in the storage building. I will see what's left of it.

[_The Doctor__]

All of the above is from memory, it's in the order it popped into my head and typed as such, lest it be forgotten before I can get it typed in. Your making me remember one of so many many years and times gone by... if I can remember more I will type it here. If it's rambling so be it. Your getting as I recall it, now that I am thinking about it. Heck now I remember the living room of the house I was in at the time! Go figure. Nice wood floors excellent wood work, high ceilings, and a desk full of chips board and soldering irons.

The desk was loved by myself and despised by my signifigant other... Later to be mother of my children with whom I am still with... Yes my daughter loves my Atari and has a retro streak in her. She thinks I am a dinosaur.... she's probably right.

[Goochman]

I remember wanting a Mega ST 2 when they were released. My local dealer didnt "pay" Atari to be a US licensed Mega dealer so he couldnt stock them. The on eother dealer an hour away did and after a month I finally got my hands on it. 2 weeks later that dealer went under and the MEga 2 I got had a defect. My local dealer couldnt/wouldnt touch it since Atari wasnt shipping him product and didnt make him a "Mega" dealer. Atari almost wanted to wipe their hands of it since in theory the "Mega" dealers got money to handle warrenty work. Finally Atari agreed to a replacement after I paid to ship it back to CA which wasnt cheap as Im in the DC area.............

 

Still have that Mega 2 - its one of the nicest designs ever made IMHO.

[_The Doctor__]

I remember wanting a Mega ST 2 when they were released. My local dealer didnt "pay" Atari to be a US licensed Mega dealer so he couldnt stock them. The on eother dealer an hour away did and after a month I finally got my hands on it. 2 weeks later that dealer went under and the MEga 2 I got had a defect. My local dealer couldnt/wouldnt touch it since Atari wasnt shipping him product and didnt make him a "Mega" dealer. Atari almost wanted to wipe their hands of it since in theory the "Mega" dealers got money to handle warrenty work. Finally Atari agreed to a replacement after I paid to ship it back to CA which wasnt cheap as Im in the DC area.............

 

Still have that Mega 2 - its one of the nicest designs ever made IMHO.

Exactly the kind of ass-hattery that went on. That is what killed Atari off. Plain and simple. I don't know wtf they were thinking.