Greyfox Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 A much more balanced perspective there Dragon, from my initial post my argument was to say that it brought nothing new, but I recede that statement, now that I've read it again and what you've written, there is indeed a lot more to the feature here, the break down on elaboration by yourself within elements of the article make for better scope for the overall article. I stand corrected, and take back my argument, fleshed out in this manner, I think completes a job well done by both you and this months ST article 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Not managed to finish reading it yet, bloody cat thinks it's fantastic 'fun' to leap onto me lap as i'm reading it..the little bas....ket of love :-) The article starts by at least being 100% honest with the reader, that the ST has been covered a number of times before by RG and that's all i as a paying customer/reader, ask of any magazine/book, honesty, in topics like this. Some of the wording could of benifited from a degree of 'proof reading' though as part of the text starts to explain how the ST quickly became the lead development platform for many software houses (very true) so i'm expecting quotes from someone to explain why they used the ST 1st, what made them change to Amiga 1st, then port to ST etc etc, up pops Glenn Corpes who opens straight away by saying his 1st 2 games whilst at Bullfrog were done with the Amiga firmly in mind, Druid 2 Amiga only and Fusion, rather than Bullfrog Management asking him to convert to ST, he converts as he's in effect bored.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 So, going from way it's written he seemed a curious choice of coder, to use, in order to 'back up' the earlier statement made, as reader gets impression Bullfrog put the Amiga 1st and foremost.It might of 'helped' to mention coding for Populous according to other Bullfrog sources started on the ST, switched to Amiga, before being finished on the ST etc and had someone explain why they went this route. Written as it is, it starts to flow, then its as if someone switches the tracks and Glenn suddenly pulls alongside with an alternative viewpoint... Small niggle i grant you, but did seem to contridict was was written before it. Think i'll skip the buisness side of the ST :-), i bought mag as Retro GAMER :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Ok, cat left me alone long enough to finish up..i do have to question this aspect of the article though, when it talks of the ST a big seller in Europe, the way it's worded and i quote: '...the man responsible for much of this fortune was European Product Manager, Darryl Still'..... No, i'm sorry but that's simply not really the way to present this.Darryl, who i've spoken to numerous tiomes over the years in 1 form or another was a key part of the Atari UK TEAM that made the ST do so well in Europe.When i was fortunate enough to interview Darryl for ST Gamer Vol 1, he himself gave credit to others, describing Bob Gleadow as 'The hardest and most inspirational person he ever worked for' and went onto describe roles other key Atari UK people played in making the ST the hit it was. No man is an island and Darryl, Bob, Max Bambridge, Rob Harding and many, many others i'm sure worked damn hard to establish the ST and it's third party support, worked with the press, the stores, you name it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I recently interviewd 1 of the team who launched the Sony Playstation in the UK (interview will appear in a future issue of Classic Console Magazine) and message he gave was very much how hardware launches are a team effort and i'd of prefered article made note of the team aspect and said they had interviewed one of the people involved at 'ground level' as it were rather than word it as it is here.Not wishing to take away anything from blood, sweat and tears Darryl put in, he was very much the 'face' of Atari UK for a number of years, but a lot of people simply made the ST 'happen' in the UK/Europe. To close then? part of me wishes they'd had another 2 pages+ and article could of looked at Lost ST Games, mentioned the prototype 130ST, detailed effect inital stock shortages had on UK, think it was what? 50,000 ST Atari initally shipped worldwide, of those less than 3,000 initally made it to the UK and a good chunk of those went to developers, leaving consumers wanting, plus some distributors had apparently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 wanted the 130 ST to make it to retail, as it would of been a cheaper option to buy from Atari, but given the space it had, whilst not delivering anything ground breaking or adding anything more than a few nice snippets of triva to what i already knew of the ST, it was a nice, solid article.If, like many it seems you had little/no exp.of the ST, just assumed it was a poor mans Amiga, hopefully the article could have shown the ST to you in a better light and shown what a decent work horse it was. When i read earlier comments, i was'nt sure what to expect, but came away pleasantly surprised, it just needed 'work' in a few areas, bit of spit n polish as it were and more careful wording in places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I would have loved the 130 ST, sitting next to my 130 XE. I am surprised, I like the ST article, the way it got broken into segments, eg Game, Demo, Business, Music, I think it's really well done. I think Dragons feedback was ok, well balanced, well OKish really, but what do you think should be included (maybe in the 40th Anniversary issue?) or should've been included in this issue of RG? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Re-reading the article, i do find myself agreeing quite a bit with Greyfox, without wishing to sound overly harsh, there simply are a lot more better examples of games the ST had, the Amiga did'nt without resorting to 8Bit ports like The Last Stormtrooper. I'd of loved to have seen TNT included as i doubt it's a game many RG readers are aware of, never seems to get mentioned: http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DiL_5GpYllFQ&sa=U&ei=JTsgVfT-HYOEPfLqgYgH&ved=0CBUQtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNGgOkXRXBJY9v-GrMlJ-MKrbwHT0A But i personally would of also added System 3's IK, Star Trek:The Rebel Universe (made good use of ST hardware if nothing else-digitised pics and samples from TV series etc.debuted on ST 1st, then ported to other platforms, so that really deserved to be there), Ubisoft's Sapiens never made it to the Amiga did it? an a very unusual title for the time.Few others spring to mind..but i (personally) feel these would of been better showcases for the ST, myself than Starquake etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Thanks High Voltage, like i said early, any writer only has so much space to try and fit the ST life story in, as it were and much as i'd of liked to have seen the article get another 2 pages+, i think the writer did very well with what he was given. Article managed to get across, what i feel is the key message, across to those unfamilar with the ST hardware and that was just how flexible a machine it was and what it offered to so many of us, wanting the cheapest route into 16 Bit Gaming and more and whilst it was 'no Amiga' (i really, really hated the soundchip having come from SID on the C64), in the right hands it was a very capable machine. The choice of games, i've commented on, offered up what i felt were more suitable choices, but that's just a personal viewpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Ok, here are the key areas i feel have been 'missed' so far by the ST articles in RG, EDGE etc: 1)Details still remain 'sketchy' on the sheer amount of work was done by Atari UK staff (pre-Darryl Still era) in terms of launching the ST in Europe.I interviewed Les Player who talked of being given the task of 'kick-starting' ST Software development in Europe, being given 100 ST's to SELL to developers, as Atari could'nt afford to give them away etc etc, which were fantastic insights, but i feel there are more stories to be told yet.... There seemed to be an enormous amount of work going into a big presence at the1985 PCW show which convinced the world the ST was real...(more on this aspect later)... Max Bambridge (Atari UK GM at the time?) seemed delighted, but his 'reward' was pretty damn harsh-Jack T. sacked him almost straight afterwards!!! So that's something i'd love to hear a lot more on, if possible..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 There's also the 'Bitch Fight' :-) between Atari UK and Sir Clive Sinclair, i've yet to hear anything written up on in either publication.... Sir Clive is supposed to have said in an interview that he personally doubted the Atari ST would ever appear (and was willing to put money on it) and it did'nt have any software being written for it. This in particular after his 68000 based QL machine had suffered huge issues and thus you had the 2 Edged Sword situation of 1 set of coders with unfinished 68000 code and nowhere to put it, so the ST was a life saver and on the other hand, you had those that had invested so heavily in the QL, they could'nt afford to develop for the ST.... The Discovery pack rightfully gets credit for boosting ST sales, but lest we forget the £400 of 'free' software' given away with the 'Summer Of ST' deal Atari had, things like Super Sprint, Marble Madness, Defender Of The Crown, Rampage etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 In fact theres rich potential even without covering the ST itself: How about a feature on Atari's ARC label? Publishing games likeLDefender 2, Photon Storm (so there's a Jeff Minter interview there alone), Badlands Pete, Chronicles Of Omega (Lost 7800 game there in it's Ch.Of Cute form), Hellrider, 9 Lives (Simon Butler i recently interviewed for Classic Console Magazine). A little sideways thinking throws up all manner of ideas. :-) Just remember, if they DO appear in Future RG articles, you heard them here 1st... A little credit to Lost Dragon would be all i asked for... :-) All joking aside, i do feel there's a lot more to cover yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) Last suggestion, don't want to give too many ideas :-) But Rainbird title, Verminator was mentioned earlier...idea choice for a feature there: Tim Moore met Chris Hinsley, when Tim was doing Amstrad CPC conversions for Digital Integration and had also done some Raytracer work on the Amiga, as well as his ST stuff, so ideal interview fodder.Chris, think: Everyone's A Wally, Pyjamarama, Frostbyte, Onslaught etc, started coding on the ZX81 and Chris taught Shiny's Dave Perry 'The ways of assembly language and good game structure' whilst at Mikro Gen... So you could get some intersting stories i'm sure from both of these guys, just by using a making of..type feature on ST Verminator. These are just my take on brainstorming how there's scope to do a lot, using ST games etc as your starting point, others i'm sure have very different ideas. Fancy a making of..Verminator, Edge? . A Man can hope.... Edited April 4, 2015 by Lost Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 (edited) Yes, how long did ARC actually exist? When those labels were in the shops, I never even knew they were Atari. Probably it was mentioned in ACE, but I must have missed that. But to tell you the truth, I was an Amiga man, purchased the Batman pack when it was out, New Zealand Story was included as well, which is a great game. Amassed a huge Amiga collection, and had a 500, 500+, 600, 1200 and the CD32. Still got the 600 and 1200. Only got an ST late 90s, when I was given a 1040Ste. Edited April 5, 2015 by high voltage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 @High Voltage:re:ARC-I'm not sure to be honest and that's why i feel there's scope for someone to do a 'proper' article on it.Darryl S.Touches on it, in the ST Gamer Vol 1 interview i did with him, saying it was a software label, fully owned by Atari...supporting ST owners was the key focus, but making money out of the Amiga+PC owners out there was a bit of mischievous fun :-), but i'd love to hear a lot more about the label. Who they approached, what sort of titles they were looking for, why the Label was dismantled, how the various versions sold in relation to each other etc etc. As for the Amiga Batman Pack, that seemed to shift a lot of A500's here in the UK from what i recal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyfox Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Some great info right there guys , as for Arc Developments (Atari UK) I remember owning a lot of their games, all Atari ST exclusive bar "9 Lives" been ported to the Amiga by Frames in 1990, amazing title like "Prince" their answer to populous without playing god, or "Borodino" or "Armanda" feature polygon graphics as you control your ships and armies. Although only doing 11 titles in total, from the team "Frames" birth child of Steve Cain and "Kenny" Everett handling a lot of Arc games, they even got Jeff Minter involved to produce the excellent "Photon Storm". So this reinstates that there was a vast more that could of been included or even expanded on and would and could make a feature company profile feature on, but as far as I know "Steve Cain" sadly passed away a few years ago, but I know Simon Butler I'm sure could tell some stories regarding his time at Frames. I think we could spend all day listing of exclusive and ST gaming Pacific's and not even mentioning exclusive Atari STe titles, but that's the price one pays for a closed mind or simply unawareness or exposure some of us lucky enough to have been given back then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Yep, there's def.room for any future looks at the ST range by likes of Edge or RG to try any number of different angles.The STE exclusives in particular i'd love to see looked at, i recal Atari promising games designed exclusively for the STE hardware, which would of been a real kicker to likes of myself and me mates all 520STFM owners bar 1....he had a 1 MEG STE (And rich parents, lol) but other than some swanky P.D demo's and enhanced ST games (ie Captive, more colours, Stero Sound if i recal...) i never saw anything that made full use of the hardware, so i'd love to read up on which commercial games tapped into it. So there alone as an Atari fan, Ex-ST owner, my exposure was very limited. As for those sadly no longer with us..tell me about it, really harsh to learn of all those who've passed..only last night did i realise Amazing Studio's graphics artist, Christian Roberts (character design, backdrops, sprites etc on Heart Of Darkness) sadly passed away in 2010 :-(. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) Hmmn.Mentioned in another thread it was 'odd' RG would feature GX4000 Operation Thunderbolt twice in same issue (Minority Report and also part of the Making Of...feature), well was chatting online with friend of mine re:The ST, said how much i enjoyed it, how it got across a very good message about the ST being so veristile etc and how all i'd of prefered really is different set of games, mentioned Tranator:Last Storm Trooper and he seems to think game had a degree of coverage a few months before... I stopped subscribing so have no idea if this is true, butr if so, seems a tad odd such an average title is suddenly getting so much press. Guess game must have more fans out there (or at RG Towers at least :-) ) than i gave it credit for. I've a Speccy emulator here, might be time to re-visit it. Edited April 6, 2015 by Lost Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 The talk of how press took to Jaguar Raiden, jogged my memory, so i thought i'd look into how UK Press, back in the day took to a few of the games featured in this months RG Article, after i and others thought there were some 'odd choices' in there: ST Action:3 reviewers looked at Slap Fight, only 1 of the 3 seemed to like it, general view seemed to be it was too old hat compared to say Xenon, overall score of 61%. Enduro Racer was described as a medicore translation, the rough edges giving game an unfinished apperance, could of been a lot better, controls insensitive etc Overall 59%. Rana Rama they describe as easily forgotten.... Starquake scraped in a 69% score. Tranator a lowly 36% and it seems original version has a bug which means you cannot complete game? Looking at reviews of other 8 Bit/older coin-op conversions like Thrust/Crystal Castles/Warhawk (46%), Screaming Wings etc, even at lower prices, it seemed magazine simply did'nt want or expect games like Slap Fight, Tranator etc on the ST? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyfox Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Lol, it seems the selection of games were all very odd indeed. As mentioned by myself, yourself, there were far many other actual great ST exclusive games than listed, but I think we've become the educators of what's great on the ST vs the bog standard. Roll on the next ST article in RG magazine, let hope they'll get it right then 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I looked into just what games ARC had released, very surprised they'd not been featured as a Developer Profile in RG all these years...as well as titles previousily mentioned in this thread, i'd never been aware of Starbreaker for example (if i had, i'd of quizzed Simon Butler about it when i interviewed him for Classic Console), Prince which i believe was an RTS? (my kinda genre), let alone Hell Raider or Enterprise (what became of these 2?). There's also scope to look into claims that John Menzies dropped the ST in early 1990, only to replace it at the end of the year and drop the Amiga, as the £299 ST became their entry level 16 Bit Micro and they felt the Amiga was over-priced, Menzies had what? 41 stores in UK at the time?. Stacks of scope for fresh ST articles, just make the researchers/ideas cheques out to..... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Thread bump: Well i did ask for fresh ST articles from mainstream press and they, well Edge of all places has delivered :-) This months issue (282) has 'The Making Of.......Alpha Waves Format: Atari ST' Seems it was known as Continuum in North America ? Anyway not a game i was personally familar with and i'd never seen Christophe De Dinechin interviewed before, so hats off to Edge for making this happen. Just proves you can explore the ST a lot further without having to fall back on same info, same names. More like this to come i hope... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Necrobump but... I stumbled across an old copy of RG magazine at my folks place and was reading this article again and even now,it still makes me chuckle. Trantor used as a flagship ST exclusive, despite featuring awful art, weaker gameplay than the 128K ZX Spectrum version (no interactive scenery etc) Archipelagos (Logotron 1989) apparently paving the way for polygon 3D on the ST.. Excuse me? Had Steve Bak (RIP) not converted The Sentinel to the ST in 1988? No wonder i stopped buying the magazine if this was the quality of ST work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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