FPGA Based Videogame System

[lekrang]

 

I would think Analogue would want the jailbreak to happen b/c it would sell more consoles. But they might want to distance themselves from it. Hence the anonymous source.

 

You might be right, I could see that side of it also.

I guess we are now playing the waiting game.

[Nomenclature]

 

Actually it looks like kev's 5200 Jr system:

 

http://kevtris.org/Projects/5200jr/index4.html

 

Ya, what NT mini menu is that? NT mini doesn't support 5200 I thought or am I behind on something? By the way, would love a Super NT menu font that looked like that it's sweet.

[cacophony]

It is better for Kevtris to focus on fixing the minor SNES core issues that are found in the next few weeks, as opposed to releasing a core store for the SNT.

 

A feature request for the SNT: settings profiles. If the SNT could load small settings files from an SD card, that would allow for people on the net to share recommend settings, save their settings, etc.

 

I don't care about the core store (got the nt mini for that), but I'd really like the ability to load non-special chip roms off the sd. I imagine that's very little work so I'm hoping it comes soon.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

I don't care about the core store (got the nt mini for that), but I'd really like the ability to load non-special chip roms off the sd. I imagine that's very little work so I'm hoping it comes soon.

I could see Kevtris trying to implement SA-1 via FPGA, but Super FX would probably take too much valuable time.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Thanks for the reply. The tvs are different models. The tv displays a message saying that an incompatable video signal is detected

I hope the Super NT does not output 1080p by default. My 2006 Sanyo is 720p/1080i only. The 720p Mini consoles and AVS work flawlessly with it, but if any devices are locked to 1080p in their default setting, it will run into problems on my set. I also have a 1080p gaming monitor in my bedroom so I could manually reconfigure settings on that if necessary.

[SegaSnatcher]

I hope the Super NT does not output 1080p by default. My 2006 Sanyo is 720p/1080i only. The 720p Mini consoles and AVS work flawlessly with it, but if any devices are locked to 1080p in their default setting, it will run into problems on my set. I also have a 1080p gaming monitor in my bedroom so I could manually reconfigure settings on that if necessary.

1080p is the default setting. And no offense, but you really should consider upgrading your display. The Super NT is best used with a nice display with known low lag. The TCL 605 series is fantastic and will soon come down in price. You could probably get the 55" model for under $500 in a couple months.

 

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/tcl-55-class-54-6-diag--led-2160p-smart-4k-ultra-hd-tv-with-high-dynamic-range-roku-tv/5878705.p?skuId=5878705

Edited February 11, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[Andromeda Stardust]

Thanks for the reply. The tvs are different models. The tv displays a message saying that an incompatable video signal is detected

I hope the Super NT does not output 1080p by default. My 2006 Sanyo is 720p/1080i only. The 720p Mini consoles and AVS work flawlessly with it, but if any devices are locked to 1080p in their default setting, it will run into problems on my set. I also have a 1080p gaming monitor in my bedroom so I could manually reconfigure settings on that if necessary.

The more I think about it, the less I think we will be getting a jailbreak firmware.

First time around with the mini nt we got confirmation pretty early on that it was coming.

The silence on this matter makes me believe that things have changed.

 

If I am not mistaken when the mini nt release Kevtris wasn't an employee of Analogue per say but now he is.

There might be some legality issues regarding him releasing these now that he is officially an employee and not a third party releasing these on the side.

 

I also think that analogue probably has some future plans/projects coming up to keep the ball rolling on these retro FPGA-based systems.

I could easily see them releasing a FPGA version of sega consoles next or any of the ones that are more popular in the FPGA cores Kevtris has already built.

 

Also... considering the original topic of this thread, if Kevtris is planning on releasing this all-in-one FPGA system in the future, it would be counter-productive if there was already a system out there being able to do mostly the same thing as his own product.

Only few people would most likely buy the Z3K for the added options since most of us are buying up the analogue super nt.

 

Just my opinion.

 

For now I am holding off on the super nt.

I will be looking at this thread regularly to one day pick up a Z3K.

I just find there isn't quite enough there to justify the price for me considering my current setup with framemeister and 1chip snes.

Don't get me wrong, the work Kevtris put in is simply amazing. A marvel of engineering for sure. And the amount of time of effort he spent must have been immense.

I also love the support he is providing, with quick firmware updates to keep everyone happy.

Truly, on those aspects the price is justifiable and hope as many people as possible pick it up to encourage him.

If I didn't have the framemeister I would be buying one for sure.

A huge number of people still haven't gotten their systems yet. Give it time. Perhaps Kevtris needs a nice vacation after working nonstop for months. He may still release a jailbreak firmware, when it's ready. Or not. I have no horse in this race but it would be nice to have since I passed over the NT Mini. It's also plausible Kevtris needs time to build expansion chip cores (sa-1, fx, et al) before dropping in ROM loading.

[Riptide]

All things analogue aside, I have two more general questions about FPGAs if you have time to answer Kevtris.

 

What are your thoughts on the MISTer board? In a hypothetical world where the analogue nt/s-nt never happened, do you think you would've considered porting your 8bit cores to the MISTer or continued pursuit of your own hardware solution?

 

We are all familiar the clone consoles that use NOAC ASICs and many of the inaccuracies they have, but is the code for your NES core the type of information that would be used to get an ASIC made? I realize using an FPGA obviously allows for bugfixes (and multiple cores), but once the vast majority of bugs have been found could analogue take your code and get a bunch of highly accurate NOAC ASICs? (not that this would be a smart/dumb business decision, just asking if possible)

Edited February 11, 2018 by Riptide

[RabidWookie]

When the game engine itself is running at less than 60Hz, the game may not poll the controller inputs every frame, instead polling the controller after each frame is rendered. TAS speedruns verified on real hardware had to account for lag frames when the controller bot played back the recorded inputs. Since the game isn't polling the controllers every frame and the display hardware is being infrequently updated, it can make the gameplay feel clunky and laggy, even on real hardware with a CRT. For instance, if the display is refreshing at 15Hz, that is 67ms between refreshes on the TV. So you press the controller after it has been polled, it could take up to 60ms or longer for the input to register again, even on real hardware. 16ms is imperceptible to all but the most hardcore speedrunners, but 67ms is very noticeable. So for instance playing StarFox SNES or a 4-player Mario Kart 64 match, the hardware itself can feel laggy and unresponsive. If you display or controller input adds to the lag total, this can make the game feel even worse.

But if 67ms is passing between refreshes, does that mean there's no difference between, say, 16ms of input lag and 40ms of input lag since the controller isn't being polled until 67ms pass?

[retro_fan]

I hope the Super NT does not output 1080p by default. My 2006 Sanyo is 720p/1080i only. The 720p Mini consoles and AVS work flawlessly with it, but if any devices are locked to 1080p in their default setting, it will run into problems on my set. I also have a 1080p gaming monitor in my bedroom so I could manually reconfigure settings on that if necessary.

 

Yup, I have noticed that people are having issues with this. That's why I have asked first whether there are some technical difficulties when it comes to implementing 1080i, and then whether there are more hotkeys hoping that you can change the resolution to 720p using a hotkey maybe...

 

EDIT: Or holding down the reset button on the console, or something...

Edited February 11, 2018 by retro_fan

[thetick1]

All things analogue aside, I have two more general questions about FPGAs if you have time to answer Kevtris.

 

What are your thoughts on the MISTer board? In a hypothetical world where the analogue nt/s-nt never happened, do you think you would've considered porting your 8bit cores to the MISTer or continued pursuit of your own hardware solution?

 

We are all familiar the clone consoles that use NOAC ASICs and many of the inaccuracies they have, but is the code for your NES core the type of information that would be used to get an ASIC made? I realize using an FPGA obviously allows for bugfixes (and multiple cores), but once the vast majority of bugs have been found could analogue take your code and get a bunch of highly accurate NOAC ASICs? (not that this would be a smart/dumb business decision, just asking if possible)

 

Having worked on custom ASICs the answer is definitely yes. It is just economics as the ASIC mask is extremely expensive and high volumes would be needed to make it profitable for Analogue. Also note simple changes for hardware fixes can be done cheaply (compared to a new mask). They are called Engineering Change Orders where I worked. ECOs are lots of work for the engineering team but certainly an option for the simple fixes or even if initial chip is completely unusable. It's all economics/volumes that decide if ECOs make sense.

Edited February 11, 2018 by thetick1

[retro_fan]

no, the video is all generated internally to the FPGA. There's several PLLs on the FPGA itself, and I am using those to generate the various clocks. There's around 22 clock domains on the design as it stands. The problem is I would need some non-integer N/M ratio to get the right clock for the HDMI stuff from the 21.47Mhz domain. Right now video gets a clock that varies depending on video mode. i.e. it's 148.5Mhz in 1080p mode. There's no easy way to lock the two PLLs together (the one generating 21.47Mhz and the 148.5Mhz one) in the proper ratio to offer 60.09 hdmi.

 

The video always runs at 60.00 fps and it will cause cycle stealing on the snes side to make it stay in synch with the hdmi for the zero delay mode. If you run full/single buffered, the cycle stealing is turned off and is allowed to free run.

 

Well, if it's really not possible to have the "original clock" option then fine, we've already got quite a few settings... But I want to ask (I would like to learn more ), you can't implement it because (not taking into account the monitor compatibility issues)?...

 

a) You would have to completely change you're FPGA design for this to work

 

b) You would need a completely different FPGA chip to generate this clock

 

c) You would need some external component outside the FPGA for this

 

d) It is just too much work to get it right

[SegaSnatcher]

 

Well, if it's really not possible to have the "original clock" option then fine, we've already got quite a few settings... But I want to ask (I would like to learn more ), you can't implement it because (not taking into account the monitor compatibility issues)?...

 

a) You would have to completely change you're FPGA design for this to work

 

b) You would need a completely different FPGA chip to generate this clock

 

c) You would need some external component outside the FPGA for this

 

d) It is just too much work to get it right

If OG clocks are that important to you why not just use an OG SNES?

[retro_fan]

If OG clocks are that important to you why not just use an OG SNES?

I have just said in the very post you're quoting that "it's fine", and that "we have quite a few other settings to choose from". Now I just want to learn more about how the Super Nt works (that's why I'm asking this question).

Edited February 11, 2018 by retro_fan

[RabidWookie]

I assume the NT Mini running on a CRT runs at 60.08hz?

[nasta18]

Would it be possible to change color palette analogue super nt like analogue nt mini?

Probably in a later update?

Edited February 11, 2018 by nasta18

[Andromeda Stardust]

Dumb question, and only slightly related to the topic at Hand.

 

I have a SuperEverdrive. What is the benefit of the SD2NES over the SuperEverdrive?

 

for me, none at the moment. until they get support for fx and sa-1, its just a stupidly overpriced everdrive as far as im concerned. the dozen or so obscure games and hacks that work on it over the everdrive arent worth it imo.

[Andromeda Stardust]

It is better for Kevtris to focus on fixing the minor SNES core issues that are found in the next few weeks, as opposed to releasing a core store for the SNT.

 

A feature request for the SNT: settings profiles. If the SNT could load small settings files from an SD card, that would allow for people on the net to share recommend settings, save their settings, etc.

 

uniqe profiles would be awesome. for instance i could see myself using 1080 with 6:5 scaling on my bedroom pc monitor, and 720 with 3.5:3 pixels on the living room tv, and separate scanline tweaks for each.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

 

for me, none at the moment. until they get support for fx and sa-1, its just a stupidly overpriced everdrive as far as im concerned. the dozen or so obscure games and hacks that work on it over the everdrive arent worth it imo.

 

Instant loading and MSU1 support is worth the admission alone.

[Andromeda Stardust]

1080p is the default setting. And no offense, but you really should consider upgrading your display. The Super NT is best used with a nice display with known low lag. The TCL 605 series is fantastic and will soon come down in price. You could probably get the 55" model for under $500 in a couple months.

 

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/tcl-55-class-54-6-diag--led-2160p-smart-4k-ultra-hd-tv-with-high-dynamic-range-roku-tv/5878705.p?skuId=5878705

 

the sanyo was purchased in 2007, 500 usd new, works with all my sd consoles, will sync to ntsc50 from atari/n64 (with bottom cropped off) and 720p 50hz hdmi. the hdmi lag at 720 is imperceptible though composite and rf have minor lag which is not game breaking. 2600 7800 sega nes snes n64 all work flawless on it, and it have discrete svideo and component inputs. please tell me where i can buy a new hdtv with this level of compatibility with out of spec signals. so please dont tell me to toss it in the trash just because it cant handle 1080p. its 26 inches so it could use an upgrade. id rather get a lightly used plasma from a few years back for my money (no shared component inputs) than a new set with poor analog compatibility.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

 

the sanyo was purchased in 2007, 500 usd new, works with all my sd consoles, will sync to ntsc50 from atari/n64 (with bottom cropped off) and 720p 50hz hdmi. the hdmi lag at 720 is imperceptible though composite and rf have minor lag which is not game breaking. 2600 7800 sega nes snes n64 all work flawless on it, and it have discrete svideo and component inputs. please tell me where i can buy a new hdtv with this level of compatibility with out of spec signals. so please dont tell me to toss it in the trash just because it cant handle 1080p. its 26 inches so it could use an upgrade. id rather get a lightly used plasma from a few years back for my money (no shared component inputs) than a new set with poor analog compatibility.

 

First, using analog devices without a external digital converter/upscaler in an HDTV is a bad idea. Also, input lag has improved through the years. There are now HDTVs with input lag just under 1 frame.

 

Hooking up a Super NT into a low quality TV from 2006 is akin to someone installing 20" rims on their 1989 Mazda.

 

Also, its 2018 and the biggest TV you own is only 26"? If you can afford a $200+ FPGA console, surely you could have spent $500 for a proper HDTV.

Edited February 11, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[NE146]

Hooking up a Super NT into a low quality TV from 2006 is akin to someone installing 20" rims on their 1989 Mazda.

 

Like with the NT Mini, I eventually plan on hooking it up to my 14" CRT on my office desk.. and why not?

[SegaSnatcher]

 

Like with the NT Mini, I eventually plan on hooking it up to my 14" CRT on my office desk.. and why not?

At least that is a CRT and if its a decent brand no problem. Totally different than a low quality LCD from 2006. LCDs really didn't start getting really good until LED Backlighting was implemented.

 

I mean if 26" was all I was limited to I would just stick with a CRT.

Edited February 11, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[Andromeda Stardust]

First, using analog devices without a external digital converter/upscaler in an HDTV is a bad idea. Also, input lag has improved through the years. There are now HDTVs with input lag just under 1 frame.

Hooking up a Super NT into a low quality TV from 2006 is akin to someone installing 20" rims on their 1989 Mazda.

Also, its 2018 and the biggest TV you own is only 26"? If you can afford a $200+ FPGA console, surely you could have spent $500 for a proper HDTV.

 

It was the largest TV I could afford at the time I bought it. I wanted a 32" HDTV but was not prepared to pay $700 for it. And yeah, like I'm gonna spend $300 on a fancy upscaler (which adds lag btw) and get all my consoles modded for rgb. I already have access to seven generations of Nintendo hardware (and 3 generations of Game Boy) over HDMI. RetroUSB AVS, Super NT (currently in transit), UltraHDMI modded N64, HDMI digital adapter for Game Cube, Wii-U (Wii b/c), and of course the Switch. The Atari consoles I can't imagine playing on anything but a CRT, and all that leaves is Turbografx and Sega Genesis for the FPGA treatment. Mega NT is coming so I'm good.

 

Lastly I'd like to add that I still believe 1080p is overrated for retro upscaling. 720p allows integer scaling without cropping or windowboxing and looks just as good. As long as the Super NT can default to 720p when it reads the edid data on my set, it will run fine. Question is if it remembers my scanline and multiplier settings between 720p and 1080p without fiddling with menu options everytime, if I transport it between the 23" 1080p ASUS in my bedroom and the 26" 720p/1080i Sanyo in the living room. Because if I set it up for 1080p 6:5 pixels on my ASUS, then it remembers those settings and displays unusable signal on the Sanyo because I didn't manually switch it back to 720p / 4:3 or 3.5:3 pixel aspect. I would hope that if I plug the Super Nt into a display not capable of rendering 1080p video, that it would revert to the previously used 720p settings.

[SnoopKatt]

It'd be neat to be able to make/load profiles via text files on the SD card. Then we could all share our favorite configurations, as well as make setting changes a little quicker.