Coleco Chameleon .... hardware speculations?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

It sure as hell would have if I had been smart enough to enable ads in the forum as soon as I saw that DVR card on eBay!!

160 users in total, 118 are guest.

 

You should show ads for non-registered people.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Thomas Jentzsch]

If we would have taken the talent of all people and their time required following this thread, I am sure we could have come up with some really nice retro hardware. Plus some games!

[PlaysWithWolves]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mike hasn't taken any money for this project yet, right? So no one is out anything at the moment (other than time spent reading this insane thread). That's at least some good news. I think the comparisons to Ponzi and Madoff are a bit out of line.

 

 

People seem to have a lot of disdain for that pinball guy who took a lot of money but never produced. I guess if he'd been busted before defrauding the public, that would have been just worthy of a slap on the hand?

I don't know how the law looks at attempted fraud and successful fraud but as far as I'm concerned they're the same. There's no "little bit pregnant". A purse thief who fails is as bad as one who gets away.

 

Or, let MK keep trying until he finally succeeds. Practice makes perfect!

 

[goldenegg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mike hasn't taken any money for this project yet, right? So no one is out anything at the moment (other than time spent reading this insane thread). That's at least some good news. I think the comparisons to Ponzi and Madoff are a bit out of line.

 

 

 

He hasn't taken money from customer yet, but I believe it's fact that he took money from his business partners. That was at least the case with the RetroVGS. I assume the same to be true regarding the Chameleon. I also wouldn't be surprised if Coleco Holdings put up some amount of cash, if only to bring him out to the Toy Fair. Hell, they let hi take up the majority of their booth, which I'm sure he didn't pay a penny for.

[+thanatos]

I was finally motivated myself to subscribe after putting it off for forever... This thread has delivered for everyone!

[Tempest]

 

People seem to have a lot of disdain for that pinball guy who took a lot of money but never produced. I guess if he'd been busted before defrauding the public, that would have been just worthy of a slap on the hand?

I don't know how the law looks at attempted fraud and successful fraud but as far as I'm concerned they're the same. There's no "little bit pregnant". A purse thief who fails is as bad as one who gets away.

 

Or, let MK keep trying until he finally succeeds. Practice makes perfect!

 

The thing is, I don't think Mike INTENTIONALLY set out to defraud anyone. I don't believe the system was a scam from the beginning, I think it was an honest attempt at making a retro console that went seriously wrong. Ponzi and Madoff were out to scam people from the beginning, there was no intent to offer a real product. That's the difference

 

 

He hasn't taken money from customer yet, but I believe it's fact that he took money from his business partners. That was at least the case with the RetroVGS. I assume the same to be true regarding the Chameleon. I also wouldn't be surprised if Coleco Holdings put up some amount of cash, if only to bring him out to the Toy Fair. Hell, they let hi take up the majority of their booth, which I'm sure he didn't pay a penny for.

 

If that's true then he's in even bigger trouble than I thought. Another reason he just needs to come clean and take what's coming to him. He's not going to hide and wait this one out.

[galax]

If we would have taken the talent of all people and their time required following this thread, I am sure we could have come up with some really nice retro hardware. Plus some games!

 

One problem, which Mike struggled with for over a year and never really got a hold of (specs were still changing even while the Toyfair was happening), is that everyone's idea of "really nice retro hardware" is different. There are so many options for things it should include/support: modern cartridge, old cartridges (adapters?), SD cards, downloads, open source, DRM, FPGA, ARM, hardware emulation, software emulation, have the horsepower for modern (e.g. Unity) 'retro-style' and indie games, RGB/composite/HDMI/component/s-video, stereo/8-track/9.1 surround sound (kidding), and support wireless/USB/NES/Atari/other controllers?

 

Should it be something like a Retron 5, Flashback, Ouya, MiST, Direct to TV, RetroPie, Vega Plus, Analogue NT NES, or one of the countless other ways of playing retro games? Those already exist (with varying degrees of success) so it should be differentiate itself in some way, but too different from those and it probably won't sell.

[RupanIII]

I just replied to your message, it just goes on and on man!

You have no idea how long it's taken to finally reach the end of the thread, but I did it. I did it.

[RupanIII]

The short story:
He apparently told his investors that RetroVGS was part of Retro VGMagazine.

They didn't get hard contracts, just hand him money.

He forms a separate company and they have shares in that instead, and that company is worthless.

That money gets spent, on what who knows.

Forward to the Chameleon.

 

The thing is, I don't think Mike INTENTIONALLY set out to defraud anyone. I don't believe the system was a scam from the beginning, I think it was an honest attempt at making a retro console that went seriously wrong. Ponzi and Madoff were out to scam people from the beginning, there was no intent to offer a real product. That's the difference

 

 

 

If that's true then he's in even bigger trouble than I thought. Another reason he just needs to come clean and take what's coming to him. He's not going to hide and wait this one out.

[galax]

People seem to have a lot of disdain for that pinball guy who took a lot of money but never produced. I guess if he'd been busted before defrauding the public, that would have been just worthy of a slap on the hand?

I don't know how the law looks at attempted fraud and successful fraud but as far as I'm concerned they're the same. There's no "little bit pregnant". A purse thief who fails is as bad as one who gets away.

 

About that pinball guy John Popadiuk. It doesn't seem to be outright fraud, more just incompetence at running a business. It seems that he did employ real people for a few years, but he's a designer not a manager and spent huge sums on money on small details. $2 million isn't a huge sum if you are employing 4 (I think) full time and some volunteer staff, renting a workshop, and buying expensive equipment. There's an interview with him here, he talks about it in this (very long) interview here: http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/episode-197-an-evening-with-john-popadiuk_59362 - at 1:09:20 he talks about asking for help running the business side of things.

 

There's a case in progress against him: https://w3.courtlink.lexisnexis.com/cookcounty/FindDock.asp?NCase=&SearchType=2&Database=1&case_no=&Year=&div=&caseno=&PLtype=2&sname=Popadiuk&CDate

 

I think one of the lessons learned from both his and Mike's stories is that with crowdfunding make sure that the person who is being given the huge sack of cash has a track record at managing and delivering projects, and not just creative talent and/or enthusiasm.

[phoenixdownita]

I think that you guys are getting WAAAY too riled-up about a piece of vaporware video gaming hardware. The only thing that anyone needs to do is to stop supporting Mike's ventures in the gaming industry. What is it that you want? Prison time?

I am waaaaaaaayyyy riled-up because of the vapor-ware, or in this case fumes-ware.

 

What I want is for Mike to man up and do like the ex-president of Volkswagen automotive who after having thrown his HW guys under the bus during the diesel emission scandal resigned from President. Do you think it's fair? Same M.O .... in order

1) it's not me,

2) I didn't know,

3) it's those pesky HW guys,

4) I resign

5)

[Cav]

 

The thing is, I don't think Mike INTENTIONALLY set out to defraud anyone. I don't believe the system was a scam from the beginning, I think it was an honest attempt at making a retro console that went seriously wrong.

 

I believe this as well. I spoke with Mike last year at E3. I could tell he was genuinely excited to be there to try and drum up business for the original console idea. He had very wide-eyed optimism about the project, but it just spun entirely out of his control, which is where we are today. But intentionally set out to scam? Not from my observation at the time.

[Tempest]

I think one of the lessons learned from both his and Mike's stories is that with crowdfunding make sure that the person who is being given the money has a track record at managing and delivering projects, and not just creative talent and/or enthusiasm.

 

Agreed. I've seen this happen several times in other classic gaming/computing communities. The problem is is that a lot of people have enthusiasm and good intentions but very few have the talent to pull things off.

[PlaysWithWolves]

 

The thing is, I don't think Mike INTENTIONALLY set out to defraud anyone. I don't believe the system was a scam from the beginning, I think it was an honest attempt at making a retro console that went seriously wrong. Ponzi and Madoff were out to scam people from the beginning, there was no intent to offer a real product. That's the difference

 

 

So, that SNES mini and DVR card just accidentally fell into the respective Chameleon cases?

(Might be considered a rookie mistake were it not for RVGS.)

 

[Tempest]

 

So, that SNES mini and DVR card just accidentally fell into the respective Chameleon cases?

(Might be considered a rookie mistake were it not for RVGS.)

 

I should amend my original statement. In the beginning he didn't intend to intentionally set out to defraud anyone. Once he started making those fake prototypes then yes, he was committing fraud. What I'm trying to point out is that I think he started this project with good intentions and intended to actually make a product. He wasn't trying to scam people from the beginning (which is what people like Ponzi and Madoff did).

 

Don't think I'm defending Mike's actions, what he's done is wrong, really really wrong. But I think people who are implying that this while thing was a scam from the get go and that Mike needs to be strung up in the town square to pay for his crimes are going a bit overboard.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

I believe this as well. I spoke with Mike last year at E3. I could tell he was genuinely excited to be there to try and drum up business for the original console idea. He had very wide-eyed optimism about the project, but it just spun entirely out of his control, which is where we are today. But intentionally set out to scam? Not from my observation at the time.

 

Intent is really irrelevant at this point. The facts are that the last two prototypes were unequivocally proven fraudulent. So whether it was an intentional deception or an extraordinarily unlikely unintentional deception, as in Mike somehow not having enough of a basic technical/logical understanding to know the difference between a mass manufactured board and a one-off prototype board, it's clear that no one there is equipped either morally or technologically to see this project through to completion.

 

The Coleco rights holders giving 7 days for Mike and team to turn in a working prototype is also irrelevant. Even if that were somehow magically delivered, the project is still irrevocably lost to a PR nightmare. You don't experience multiple public failures, deceptions, mismanagement, and poor communication and get infinite re-do's without a massive financial war chest, and we already know that this project had little-to-no such war chest from the start, hence a lot of the non-marketing-related core issues that this project suffered. It's time for everyone associated to move on and put this mess behind them. I'm sure the Coleco rights holders will be joining those who already moved on in about a week or so, but why delay the inevitable?

[Breakpack]

 

I am really getting tired of people walking over Skype, it just isn't fair.

[Tempest]

 

Intent is really irrelevant at this point. The facts are that the last two prototypes were unequivocally proven fraudulent. So whether it was an intentional deception or an extraordinarily unlikely unintentional deception, as in Mike somehow not having enough of a basic technical/logical understanding to know the difference between a mass manufactured board and a one-off prototype board, it's clear that no one there is equipped either morally or technologically to see this project through to completion.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that Mike didn't intentionally deceive people with the fake prototypes. Once you start throwing random boards/systems into cases and calling it your new prototype then you're deceiving people (there's no way he didn't know those prototypes were fake, absolutely no way). What I was trying to point out is that I don't think he started the project with the intent to deceive. Whether or not that makes a difference is for everyone to decide for themselves.

[Cav]

 

Intent is really irrelevant at this point. The facts are that the last two prototypes were unequivocally proven fraudulent.

 

Fair enough. I was just trying to point out the (admittedly limited) observation/experience I had last year.

 

I think there might be a running belief of a Snidely Whiplash image from the outset vs. what I witnessed, which was more the picture on the "40 Year Old Virgin" movie poster. Optimistic naivety, which is what I experienced when starting Classic Gamer Magazine. I just knew when to get the hell out of Dodge.

[PlaysWithWolves]

Thanks for the clarification. I think I can be quoted from earlier in this thread saying that I thought his intentions were good (I'm not so certain now). Even as morbidly fascinating as all this has been I pretty much just want him to go away. I don't even care if GameGavel and RETRO mag live or die. Somebody flag down the train before it crashes again.

 

 

 

I should amend my original statement. In the beginning he didn't intend to intentionally set out to defraud anyone. Once he started making those fake prototypes then yes, he was committing fraud. What I'm trying to point out is that I think he started this project with good intentions and intended to actually make a product. He wasn't trying to scam people from the beginning (which is what people like Ponzi and Madoff did).

 

Don't think I'm defending Mike's actions, what he's done is wrong, really really wrong. But I think people who are implying that this while thing was a scam from the get go and that Mike needs to be strung up in the town square to pay for his crimes are going a bit overboard.

[Tempest]

Thanks for the clarification. I think I can be quoted from earlier in this thread saying that I thought his intentions were good (I'm not so certain now). Even as morbidly fascinating as all this has been I pretty much just want him to go away. I don't even care if GameGavel and RETRO mag live or die. Somebody flag down the train before it crashes again.

 

I think Mike is toast in the retro community for the foreseeable future. Even if he came back to apologize no one would believe him and no one is ever going to trust him again (at least not for a long long time). I sure hope this wasn't his only hobby because he's not going to be on many people's friends list these days.

 

 

I think there might be a running belief of a Snidely Whiplash image from the outset vs. what I witnessed, which was more the picture on the "40 Year Old Virgin" movie poster. Optimistic naivety, which is what I experienced when starting Classic Gamer Magazine. I just knew when to get the hell out of Dodge.

 

Exactly. There's a big difference between someone who intends to scam people from the get go and a naive person who starts lying out of desperation. Neither are good but one is far worse than the other.

[jaybird3rd]

Intent is really irrelevant at this point. The facts are that the last two prototypes were unequivocally proven fraudulent. So whether it was an intentional deception or an extraordinarily unlikely unintentional deception, as in Mike somehow not having enough of a basic technical/logical understanding to know the difference between a mass manufactured board and a one-off prototype board, it's clear that no one there is equipped either morally or technologically to see this project through to completion.

 

The Coleco rights holders giving 7 days for Mike and team to turn in a working prototype is also irrelevant. Even if that were somehow magically delivered, the project is still irrevocably lost to a PR nightmare. You don't experience multiple public failures, deceptions, mismanagement, and poor communication and get infinite re-do's without a massive financial war chest, and we already know that this project had little-to-no such war chest from the start, hence a lot of the non-marketing-related core issues that this project suffered. It's time for everyone associated to move on and put this mess behind them. I'm sure the Coleco rights holders will be joining those who already moved on in about a week or so, but why delay the inevitable?

For whatever it's worth, I feel the same way about it. Those who were close to Mike at the inception of this project insist that it started with the best of intentions, and I'm certain they're being honest about that. But whether Mike was intentionally deceitful and fraudulent at the outset, or whether that was something he resorted to later as he became more desperate, the results are largely the same.

 

There's nothing wrong with having dreams that we are passionate about, but I think everyone also has a responsibility to be self-aware enough to recognize when we're in over our heads, and to acknowledge our limitations. At some point, it must have become clear to Mike that he didn't have the knowledge or the resources to make the project happen on his own, and that's when he had the choice either to be open and honest and to seek out help, or to begin manipulating people and lying to get what he wanted.

 

He chose ... poorly.

 

[Dissident Aggressor]

So are we taking bets as to how Mike will respond to Coleco?

I have some guesses...

1. The dog ate my prototype.

2. Engineer Lee fled the country and took the board with him.

3. No prototype due to industrial espionage.

4. My car spontaneously burst into flames, and the board was inside!

5. April fool!

[MotoRacer]

So are we taking bets as to how Mike will respond to Coleco?

 

I have some guesses...

 

1. The dog ate my prototype.

2. Engineer Lee fled the country and took the board with him.

3. No prototype due to industrial espionage.

4. My car spontaneously burst into flames, and the board was inside!

5. April fool!

6. After careful consideration, we realized we needed to put even more time into this system to push more features that we felt were lacking with the original - er, second Original idea - third? Anyways.... I'm also excited to announce a new partnership with K&Y! We're going to screw you, so it may as well be as easy as possible! Please back our new Kickstarter in two weeks, which is totally enough time to make a system. I mean, we have the shell, so we're almost done, as that's one of the last steps when making a system. Or something....

[Thomas Jentzsch]

At some point, it must have become clear to Mike that he didn't have the knowledge or the resources to make the project happen on his own, and that's when he had the choice either to be open and honest and to seek out help, or to begin manipulating people and lying to get what he wanted.

Probably there were some problems with the project. Then he cheated a bit and tried to hide them to gain time, still believing in the project. Then the next problem came, and he couldn't just be honest anymore due to his initially cheating. So he went further and further into this bad direction. He wouldn't be the first doing so.

 

But eventually he must have realized that he was doing wrong and that the project was doomed. And then he failed again and miserable by knowingly continuing what had become a scam. That's was step which now defines his character.