Coleco Chameleon .... hardware speculations?

[toiletunes]

How the hell did they get the rights to over 300 Atari 2600 games from multiple sources when the Flashback series tops off at 100?

 

Oh yeah, because Kennedy said so, that's how.

[phoenixdownita]

How the hell did they get the rights to over 300 Atari 2600 games from multiple sources when the Flashback series tops off at 100?

 

Oh yeah, because Kennedy said so, that's how.

More likely, he said they are in talk to get "them VCS rights" ... which may just really mean he sent an e-mail to an old buddy of his to a yahoo e-mail account and hasn't heard since.

 

 

Or they got Gary Kitchen involved again and he pulled some strings ..... fascinating conjecture and totally made up by me right this moment .... just because none of the big wigs of the old campaign have chimed in yet .... last time they had Keith Robinsons CEO of INTV ... is it even the same INTV?

Edited February 21, 2016 by phoenixdownita

[PlaysWithWolves]

Yes, but it also has a huge library of games out of the box and has its own unique look, not to mention seems to be a very high quality item. Not too many people would pay that kind of money for a system with no games (outside of collectors).

 

I admire what Analogue does because there are already a bunch of low - medium quality clones out there. No point in fighting for the bottom of the barrel. The price is high, but not a shock considering how they are made.

 

Yep. I was just buttressing what CPUWIZ wrote, more or less. There are people out there (like perhaps some here in the community) who would be willing to spend a lot on the right product. But Flojomomo is also right that it's not going to appeal to the masses.

 

Their NeoGeo is even more expensive and sold out (granted, they could only make ten/year).

 

More likely, he said they are in talk to get "them VCS rights" ... which may just really mean he sent a mail to an old buddy of his to a yahoo mail account and hasn't heard since.

 

If you listen to the Chameleon portion of the GiantBomb podcast someone previously posted, the CNET guy says MK told him that he's in talk with Atari and named a couple other classic developers that I can't recall.

So basically, it could just be Retro MK back to his old ways.

[phoenixdownita]

....

 

If you listen to the Chameleon portion of the GiantBomb podcast someone previously posted, the CNET guy says MK told him that he's in talk with Atari and named a couple other classic developers that I can't recall.

So basically, it could just be Retro MK back to his old ways.

Let's not forget the e-mails triverse brought forward of what went on with Konami vs how it was presented by Mike

 

Konami to Mike: you fund it, build it, sell it, show us the numbers then we'll talk

Mike to us: Konami is onboard on the RVGS

So for now I wouldn't read too much, let's wait for the KS reward tier about it, then it is official ..... isn't it?

Edited February 21, 2016 by phoenixdownita

[leods]

 

Let's not forget the e-mails triverse brought forward of what went on with Konami vs how it was presented by Mike

 

 

You mean the e-mails Mike posted himself here on an open Forum even though the Konami representative specifically asked him not to talk about any of their talk, because there was nothing set on Stone?

[enoofu]

 

Let's not forget the e-mails triverse brought forward of what went on with Konami vs how it was presented by Mike

 

Konami to Mike: you fund it, build it, sell it, show us the numbers then we'll talk

Mike to us : Konami is onboard on the RVGS

So for now I wouldn't read too much, let's wait for the KS reward tier about it, then it is official ..... isn't it?

 

Konami will not be on board unless Mike has Pachinko Cores

[phoenixdownita]

 

You mean the e-mails Mike posted himself here on an open Forum even though the Konami representative specifically asked him not to talk about any of their talk, because there was nothing set on Stone?

Oh yeah that too ... why did I think triverse was involved?

[iamnotagoomba]

 

Yep. I was just buttressing what CPUWIZ wrote, more or less. There are people out there (like perhaps some here in the community) who would be willing to spend a lot on the right product. But Flojomomo is also right that it's not going to appeal to the masses.

 

Their NeoGeo is even more expensive and sold out (granted, they could only make ten/year).

 

 

If you listen to the Chameleon portion of the GiantBomb podcast someone previously posted, the CNET guy says MK told him that he's in talk with Atari and named a couple other classic developers that I can't recall.

So basically, it could just be Retro MK back to his old ways.

I seem to remember Capcom and Konami (although don't quote me on that as I was listening to the podcast whilst falling asleep). The Giant Bomb guys basically dismissed the project as a joke although respectfully wished him luck.

[triverse]

Oh yeah that too ... why did I think triverse was involved?

I was involved because I took the names that Mike dropped in the original NintendoAge thread making the announcement of the RETRO Video Game System and putting them in an article. Then I used basic journalism skills to decide to contact those companies about their involvement. Out of Konami, Sega, Capcom, Bandai Namco, John Romero and a few others, only Konami even admitted knowing anything about this thing. I was given a phone number to call, it was for Mike Rajne (name may be off) who was noted in the "Kennedy Release" of e-mails as the one that Mike Kennedy was using as a source that Konami was onboard. In the "Kennedy Release" we saw that Mr. Rajne was indeed NOT giving consent that Konami was developing games for the RVGS, rather he tentatively was saying Mike Kennedy would be responsible for everythng involved and even then it was not a guarantee that Konami would agree to that version of their properties.

 

In short, I am one of the first people to stand up and point out the lies and not toeing the company line (I was also an early banned member from their Facebook group- not sure if I was first, but I am sure at least in the first 10). I am not on a witch hunt, just a hunt for the truth.

[Chocobro]

 

Respectfully, FPGA + retrogaming is still emulation. It's that helicopters and airplanes thing again. Both follow the same rules of aerodynamics and logic. Software and FPGA are recreating the behaviors of the original target system. It's just implemented differently.

 

My best guess estimation is FPGA based emulation is where software based emulation was in the very late 1990's and early 2000's, when it comes to user friendliness and being "consumer ready". Some of the core logic is spot on and at par with software emulation of today.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I agree that FPGAs are emulation, but not sure I disagree either(or very least it's a semantic argument not worth fighting about ).

 

Basically I see it as FPGAs implementing blackbox reverse engineering are emulating the original hardware in hardware, but beyond that it gets murky. As efforts improve and we get closer and closer to the original hardware, there's a line crossed somewhere where it becomes a re-production or clone. Like if I create a piece of furniture, (woodworking being another hobby), and someone else takes my design, my cut-list, etc, uses the same wood, the end result is not an original but is also not just an emulated copy. It's potentially identical to the original. Once we get there it becomes more a philosophical debate about metaphysics and ideas.

 

To re-iterate, I'm not disagreeing with you, I just personally am not willing to draw that line in the sand and refer to it as emulation. It's a paradigm shift away from what we've really known and doesn't compare well imho. Maybe long-term we should find a new word to describe it.

 

Would this be an accurate comparison? An emulator is a program that runs on a machine and an FPGA core is a program that runs a machine. In other words, with emulation a ROM would run within the emulator but with an FPGA the core would run the hardware by telling it what to do and then the ROM would run directly on the hardware kind of separate from the core instead of within it?

 

 

Close, but I'd say ultimately not accurate. The big distinction is that a core doesn't tell an FPGA what to do, it re-arranges the FPGA's gates physically to do what it needs to do.

 

This might be a bad analogy, so if I really miss the mark just discard it XD.

 

Let's say you have a lego set that builds a castle.

This is the original box from the Lego company itself. You have a computer with a program that allows you to use virtual bricks to build a castle in a virtual environment, and finally you have a computer that takes a bin of common lego parts, and given instructions, can assemble it into a physical castle like the original boxed set.

 

My analogy would be that the original set is original hardware, computer the emulator, and the computer with physical lego parts is the FPGA.

 

From that perspective, I think it'd be fair to argue that the third option is "more real" but still not original.

 

That's the best I could think of to explain it, it's a difficult concept to explain because there really is nothing else like it to compare against. Even to computer scientists it feels like trying to explain CPUs to someone who has only ever known telephones.

[leods]

I was involved because I took the names that Mike dropped in the original NintendoAge thread making the announcement of the RETRO Video Game System and putting them in an article.

 

The best part about that, was that Mike was furious that you leaked his confidential stuff, but he was the one who was bragging about it in the first place...

[StopDrop&Retro]

Okay, now I've seen everything.

 

[enoofu]

Don't think anyone is mocking the hard works that goes into FFGA Programming and its research, for Game Emulation or similarly on software emulation side.

and pretty much everyone here encourages both hardware and software emulation solutions

 

Since both helps in the understanding on how they machines were built and ran, and help preserve the games

 

Accurate is also somewhat hard to pindown since old electronics both in hardware and software generally weren't as accurate or reliable as they should of been in the first place

[Keatah]

 

It's a little better than that... what's missing is compatibility but many game already work fine in many cores.

It does benefit from emulators documenting a lot of weird quirks from different games; what's mostly missing is interested developers to work on open source.

 

Here's the beta Gameboy core of the MiST for example, it has some sound issues but many early games work already:

 

I think that in addition to lack of developers, there is lack of standardization. There are many different types and sizes of FPGA out. And several totally incompatible rigs have been made already. Cores would need to be recompiled and tweaked for each one.

 

Right now, 1 version of a software emulator is going to run on a thousand different PCs and configurations.

 

Perhaps when intel standardizes fpgas on their x86 chips things will change.

 

 

I was thinking something like that. If an FPGA ran 10 consoles flawlessly through RGB on a PVM with only one SD card for the ROMs then as long as the price is cheaper than all 10 of those consoles with all the mods, cables, etc. to run them on a PVM and 10 flash carts then I think the price would be worth it. The savings for me would be the space saving by crushing all those into one console. Especially if it was built with such good quality and without moving parts that it could potentially outlive all 10 of those consoles. I want a console like that. FPGA or whatever technology. Just some kind of all in one retro console that is buy once and then it is a done deal because it was made to last.

 

I don't really have much against emulation. I mean, I fully intend on eventually getting to filling up my Nvidia Shield with emulators. It just that I'm more against the hardware the emulators run on. It seems that every 4 years or so, sometimes sooner and sometimes later, my computers break down even when I take good care of them. The fans from the heat, spinning disks, etc. aren't built to last and buying new computers seems like buying new cell phones as if they were designed to be replaced and upgraded relatively soon.

 

If I'm paying $500+ for something then it should last at least until I no longer want it anymore which can be quite awhile since I'm into retro consoles. Something just seems really off to me when I see people on here talking about their 8-bit computers from 30+ years ago when I struggle to keep a modern computer alive for 10 years. I'm getting to the point of just wanting to buy cheap Chromebooks with maybe a dual boot of GNU/Linux on them instead of an all purpose machine. Especially since I mostly use them as a portal to the internet. I feel the same about modern consoles. Fans, spinning disks, moving parts, etc. I hate that shit. I want to go back to the Retro Land days back when Solid State was a selling point. Anyway, I find it kind of ironic that one of the arguments for emulation is an answer to the question,"What about when the original hardware dies?" when if I fully jumped into emulation after first hearing that argument then my original emulation hardware would already be dead while my original hardware wouldn't. I rather stick to what lasts or find something new that lasts for gaming and then go cheap on my internet portal. And I'm willing to pay a premium on what lasts.

 

A top flight console built for the ages is a good thing. Like I said before I would be willing to pay up to around $400-$500 such a unit. Quality switches rated for 5,000,000 presses. Thicker plastic that doesn't degrade. Gold contacts. Connectors that can be replaced easily. Screws instead of snap-catches. Extra physical volume around the main board.. things like that..

 

I also hear your complaint about crap PC hardware. Yes it has gotten bad in the past 6-7 years. And I may have to add an addendum about longevity in my Treatise on Contemporary Emulation. The cheaper stuff is indeed designed to be replaced every few years.

 

One utility computer I built in 1998 is still functional and totally ready for the next 10 years, easy! And for my main emulation rig I've gone ahead and purchased a number of spare parts in duplicate & triplicate for the future so that any repairs needing to be done can be done so immediately. I believe it will last another 40-50 years of weekly usage with minimal downtime.

 

 

Something along those lines, but there's more to it.

PC (or even RPi2) Emu is a little clunky in the way you need to configure everything and the way to connect to a big TV.

I'd like one box where all the reasonable defaults have already been set for all the various "cores", that entails very few USB controllers are preconfig (PS3, XB360 wired seems to be the likely choice).

 

The second part is that emu in the past allowed homebrews/hacks to run work and that wouldn't run at all on the real hardware unbeknownst to the author, and that caused some grief later. I wouldn't mind emu/FPGA to allow for faster CPU, PPU or in general 2x speed etc... as long as it is explicit (and in many cases it is, I know).

 

The promise of the FPGA based retro gaming is that (if it works) there should be really little fidgeting involved (maybe owners of the retrofreak/Retron5 can speak/contrast as those are emu based instead) and possibility to get higher fidelity with relatively less hardware (so that one godforsaken game I do wan't to play, does play as it should).

 

At the end of the day is anyone's choice. I started with emu in the late 90s when the first SNES9x were around and thought we were done, turns out we weren't.

 

Then I went "real hardware" (last decade or so) and the pain to use HDMI + some system ctrls are utter crap makes me want a third solution, kevtris Z3000 (HDMI only is fine) seems the likely candidate if it is ever built.

 

Is not that emu per se cannot be that third solution but usually the host OS is cause for some grief (update this, reboot that, and assorted nonsense).

 

EDIT: this is my opinion, I am not trying to convince anyone of it, I just know this is how I feel and what I would like the Z3000 to be!!! And hoped the CC could be (be it likely won't so moot point there).

 

I agree about the setup fiddling. There is room for improvement here.

 

One thing I disagree on is the host OS rebooting and constant updates. A dedicated emulation rig solves this by not going online on a daily basis and subjecting itself to constant change. So it can operate for years. Sure, you can do annual or bi-annual updates and all that. But daily updates is simply wrong.

 

Some of the difficulty that emulators have to deal with is "adapting" ancient consoles to the new environment of today. The biggest issue being CRT-to-LCD. And a close second if controller configuration. Some VCS games manhandle the display to generate CRT effects not possible on LCD (if the same efforts are used). A totally different method has to be implemented. Regardless if it is software emulation or reconstruction via fpga. These effect must be computed on the fly and pre-rendered becase an LCD cannot do Bloom, Phosphor Decay, or adjacent-color artifacting.

 

Some Atari 400/800 and Apple II games do funny things to the signal by placing one certain color next to another certain color to get a whole different color.

 

Look at these screenshots from Altirra. Without NTSC/CRT/TV artifacting and with. This is a good example of the emulator "understanding" color artifacting of outdated hardware of the day and making concessions. Simulating the effects of playing with the signal. Simulating - because we're not actually computing the light and electrical interactions that create the colors, but instead observing the outcome and painting the picture to match observations.

 

[Reaperman]

Okay, now I've seen everything.

 

 

I dunno, I read a bit of that, and they seem to be mostly on the ball as far as what's going on.

How can journalists keep assuming honesty from the cc team?

 

Even if they're clickbait-type news outlets, I'd think there'd be more clicks involved in covering the drama.

Could we be looking at sponsored content? Or simply that investigative reporting is completely dead, and all I need to spread bs is a table, a sign, and some business cards.

[Raticon]

I am actually quite stumped about the fact that so many of those gaming/tech sites that i usually hold in quite high regard are just regurgitating the press-blurb from MK and his cronies.

 

Either they have set a new bar for lazy gaming journalism or they are intimidated/bribed into writing like that.

 

Honestly i believe that one thing that really plays in here regardless of their reasons is the plain fact that "Retro gaming" is all the rage now with multitudes of pixelated platformers and roguelikes flooding Steam, Xbox Live and such outlets and people get carried away with this, especially the young generation of PS3/Xbox360/Wii-era gamers fueled with "artificial nostalgia" that never played cart based systems and get a fair bit of skewed picture of how it really was, while wanting something modern at the same time. I dont know how to explain it really, but i am under the expression that some younger gamers take a brand new era pixel platformer and believe it was like this back in the day.

 

Speaking about carts, is the Chameleon 50/100 megabyte limit mentioned earlier here official or speculation? If true it really makes a lot of these new games excluded right now.

 

Edited for stupid typo.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Raticon

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

It will be interesting to see if they include the extra audio hardware from the Famicom. Even if not... it could be patched to have it.

 

Yes.

 

Game Tech / Kevtris HDMI mod uses the bundled FPGA to digitally recreate the expansion sound if you're using digital outputs, or you can use the console mixed audio from the original analog mono supplied by the console (AV Famicom or NES Toaster) for authentic analog sound.

 

RetroUSB's AVS uses a more purist approach, using an ADC to convert analog audio from the cart input pin into digital and mix it with the HDMI outputs. Only the expansion sound is not created 100% digitally, and I assume you could mute it for noise free operation on games that do not use expansion audio. Brian Parker states that this ADC is the only "analog" part in the entire system.

 

It kinda makes sense because Brian Parker with his original 2009 PowerPak flash cart pioneered adding expansion audio back to the NES by jumping a resistor across the expansion bus between pins 3 and 9. Presumably he opted to keep this expansion sound functionality with the AVS because it existed on the original Famicom or modded NES.

[Keatah]

I'm not sure I agree that FPGAs are emulation, but not sure I disagree either(or very least it's a semantic argument not worth fighting about ).

 

[..]

 

To re-iterate, I'm not disagreeing with you, I just personally am not willing to draw that line in the sand and refer to it as emulation. It's a paradigm shift away from what we've really known and doesn't compare well imho. Maybe long-term we should find a new word to describe it.

 

[..]

 

Close, but I'd say ultimately not accurate. The big distinction is that a core doesn't tell an FPGA what to do, it re-arranges the FPGA's gates physically to do what it needs to do.

 

FPGAs can be programmed to function in an emulative capacity. Just as they can be programmed to process other signals.

 

Perhaps "Emulation" is the wrong word entirely because it describes a function. And what software emulators and fpga emulations really are are estimated reconstructions.

 

Very much like smashing two cars together. Then trying to understand how they work and rebuild something that performs the same function by way of observation of individual parts. On occasion a bonus happens in the form of a specification sheet or original diagrams and schematics. Then those parts get a step-up in accuracy. As time rolls on more information becomes available and soon enough you can build a real car, albeit some minor differences, say, in turn radius or final weight.

 

About the FPGA re-arranging its own parts. It appears that way, but there are no motors and levers inside to push things around !!

Try reading some of the search results and see for yourself!

 

https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=FPGA+how+it+works&oq=FPGA+how+it+works

[bretthorror]

My guess at the pack-in? Action 52.

[Keatah]

I am actually quite stumped about the fact that so many of those gaming/tech sites that i usually hold in quite high regard are just regurgitating the press-blurb from MK and his cronies.

 

Either they have set a new bar for lazy gaming journalism or they are intimidated/bribed into writing like that.

[..]

 

I dunno, I read a bit of that, and they seem to be mostly on the ball as far as what's going on.

How can journalists keep assuming honesty from the cc team?

 

Even if they're clickbait-type news outlets, I'd think there'd be more clicks involved in covering the drama.

Could we be looking at sponsored content? Or simply that investigative reporting is completely dead, and all I need to spread bs is a table, a sign, and some business cards.

 

Laziness, the pressure to do something and churn out material, apathy, and general ignorance. All these "reporters" have heads full of steam and energy drinks. It's all about fast hi-speed and getting clicks. All of that goes against genuine investigative reporting.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

I was never under NDA until this last Tuesday/Wednesday. There are some things that you do just for being a professional. Hopefully I'm not being too professional.

 

 

 

 

 

It certainly looks like you are stirring something up and it is completely unfair. I've been here the whole time as and I've provided what CC team couldn't; information and transparency; and now I am somehow responsible for the mess they have created? I don't have stock on this company, I am just a license owner.

 

Now I hope the AA community comes forward and really proves wrong the blame you are putting on me. ( If you guys really want me to keep posting here and not be scared the s**t about this place. )

 

For now, I am just going to make official statements from our website.

Piko, please don't leave AA. It's bad enough they ostracised you from NA accusing you of backdoor dealing, adding to their massive HOS list without allowing you to even plead your case. Guilty until prooven innocent. Regardless, there are some NA members who believed the rumors and won't touch your stuff. I am not one of them.

 

Secondly, AA has lately become a witchhunt with regards to Mike and his associates, and during the process has gotten you in the hotseat again, along with Collectorvision. I just wanted to say, I 100% got your back, and commend you for sticking to your guns and not violating your NDA, or whatever terms they forced you to agree to.

 

Chameleon has become a three ring circus, and you and Collectorvision are like vendors who loaned property or equipment used in the circus. If the circus is a disaster due to gross mismanagement, you guys are really not at fault, but I can see how it may make you look bad by association. Walking a tightrope is never easy after all.

 

I can't speak for others, but I will continue to support you, Collectorvision and others buying your products whenever I see something I like, but I recommend you tread lightly and distance yourself from these unsavory businessmen. Mike and company will pull down anyone they can into the abyss with their sinking ship.

[toiletunes]

They would never do Action52 without breaking it down into four separate carts- Look for Action13, volume1...

[Glimglam]

 

They would never do Action52 without breaking it down into four separate carts- Look for Action13, volume1...

 

 

Be sure to keep on the lookout for the clear shell, colored shell, and clear colored shell variants, too. (Kickstarter backers only! Never to be made again!)

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

They would never do Action52 without breaking it down into four separate carts- Look for Action13, volume1...

 

Hehehe. Reminds me of the "Action 53" Vol 1 and Vol 2 homebrews by INL. Very good stuff. The worst game on their homebrew multicart is lightyears better than the best game on the Action 52. And they did not cost $200 new.

[keepdreamin]

stupid question, forgive me if it's already been posted. Has anyone contacted the folks over at kickstarter and given them a heads up about this mess?