Atari A8 Donkey Kong Hack

[TwiliteZoner]

I think the best balance is with DonkeyKongArcade_XL_v7.2.

[+darryl1970]

I prefer the peach faced Mario! What is more arcade arcade though?

Mario has more of a peach tone to his skin, but he is definitely red with blue. His mustache, eye, and hair are blue too.

So, the blue Mario is probably more accurate.

 

The gray one looks good, but is a little washed out when you play him on multiple boards.

 

I really wish that I could do peach color skin, but that's the sacrifice to multi-color prizes, and seemed to like the overall look back when I put it out there for discussion.

I think the prizes looked really bad as one color. Plus the main competitor of the day would be the ColecoVision (no SGM), and I think this current look SLAMS the ColecoVision AND the ADAM versions! (Both had white faced Marios and no complaints)

 

It seems that some people have blue bleeding into the white. I have tried to find the right color combination to not make too much blue.

I SUSPECT that it may be those of us using RCA vs those using RF converters that play into this some.

My XL, using RCA looks pretty white in the face.

 

I got a little tired last night, and I mixed some of the versions up more than I had planned. I found my error (was missing a semi-colon on a mod file)

Plus I was running up and down the stairs. I will try to get a final version, based off some of the feedback here.

 

Plus I will work on getting the 5200 colors to match the A8.

 

Not tonight though. I got to bed too late last night.

 

Thanks again for all the feedback.

Edited April 7, 2016 by darryl1970

[Tempest]

I'd rather have Mario the correct colors than multi-color prizes. Just my opinion.

[Jinroh]

I think the 7.2 ALT RMT version kills! Multi-Colour Prizes, Great Sounds, Great Colours, etc! It's awesome!

Edited April 7, 2016 by Jinroh

[+darryl1970]

Yeah. I'd much prefer a white face on Mario to get multi-colored prizes. It adds so much to the game.

Mario is the center attraction, so he is priority. However, I think both of these solutions are viable.

I will be able to tweak them more when I can try them on real hardware.

I've tried so many combinations, I forget what looks good on real hardware.

I had line causing an error last night, and that was confusing me. I was tired.

 

I'll get it.

[+darryl1970]

Found that lightening the girder colors slightly allow for a brighter Mario (less blue bleeding with brighter red).

Also, Kong looks less red and yellow.

 

Created some screenshots of other ports last night. Decided to make a collage on my lunch.

Kind of like the old Parker Bros ads.

 

I am going to try it on REAL hardware before I get too excited, but came up with the lighter colors on lunch.

[Jinroh]

Looks good so far. I can't wait to see a shot of it on real hardware.

[Tempest]

Looks nice so far. Hopefully it works on real hardware.

[Jinroh]

Yeah so far it makes it really stand out amongst the other ports, great job Darryl.

[TheNameOfTheGame]

The newest is looking good! :thumbsup:

[+MrFish]

Nice job so far Playsoft and Darryl.

 

Some Comments:

 

1. I like the new Mario. I really liked the old one, and just thought he needed his colors updated. But you've done a good job getting him looking and animated like the arcade. I agree with Tempest, if there is a conflict with P/M usage between Mario and the prizes, I'd rather see Mario in his proper colors than have multi-colored prizes. A nice touch, but I think single color prizes are fine, as long as they aren't using colors so close to playfield colors (as in the original Atari version).

2. The new and different fireballs look good. Nice seeing them change when he's got the hammer too (second and pie level).

3. The new barrels look good, but they look too wide when rolling (when the sides are showing, not the ends). They look right when stacked, but you can see in the arcade that they are not as wide when rolling compared to the stacks. If you only have the choice between one or the other, I'd go with how they look when rolling, since this is what the player will be looking at the most.

4. The original Atari version girder braces for the first level look better (and the other level they're used on). The thicker smaller ones look more like the arcade. The new ones look too thin.

5. The use of yellow on the girders for the second level doesn't work too well. I've heard other people comment on it, and I think the problem here is that you end up with too much yellow overall, and it overpowers the level visually. On the arcade they're just another shade of blue, so they kind of blend in. So I think it's better to let it go, or find some other way of enhancing them. They already looked quite nice being solid blue.

6. I like blue for the ladder color rather than aqua. I think the aqua probably works in the arcade because of how it goes together with the maroon/dark pink girders or something. It just doesn't seem to work here.

7. The new hammers look nice when stationary, but it's a little odd to see them change shape when he's swinging them. I think I lean towards having them look the same in both positions.

Edited April 8, 2016 by MrFish

[+MrFish]

3. The new barrels look good, but they look too wide when rolling (when the sides are showing, not the ends). They look right when stacked, but you can see in the arcade that they are not as wide when rolling compared to the stacks. If you only have the choice between one or the other, I'd go with how they look when rolling, since this is what the player will be looking at the most.

 

I went back and reexamined the arcade barrels. They are actually the same size in both instances. I think it's more of an optical illusion that they look wider/taller when stacked because the graphic used there has darker pixels on the outer portion, which make it look thinner and more stretched out towards the ends. The rolling version -- being animated -- has one of its incarnations with lighter pixels on the outer portion of the barrel and darker ones on the inside, which tend to make it look thicker and less stretched out.

 

I still think they're a tad wide on the version you're working on though. In comparison, the original Atari version's barrels were 1 pixel less in width than what you have right now.

Edited April 8, 2016 by MrFish

[TheNameOfTheGame]

Nice job so far Playsoft and Darryl.

 

Some Comments:

 

1. I like the new Mario. I really liked the old one, and just thought he needed his colors updated. But you've done a good job getting him looking and animated like the arcade. I agree with Tempest, if there is a conflict with P/M usage between Mario and the prizes, I'd rather see Mario in his proper colors than have multi-colored prizes. A nice touch, but I think single color prizes are fine, as long as they aren't using colors so close to playfield colors (as in the original Atari version).

2. The new and different fireballs look good. Nice seeing them change when he's got the hammer too (second and pie level).

3. The new barrels look good, but they look too wide when rolling (when the sides are showing, not the ends). They look right when stacked, but you can see in the arcade that they are not as wide when rolling compared to the stacks. If you only have the choice between one or the other, I'd go with how they look when rolling, since this is what the player will be looking at the most.

4. The original Atari version girder braces for the first level look better (and the other level they're used on). The thicker smaller ones look more like the arcade.The new ones look too thin.

5. The use of yellow on the girders for the second level doesn't work too well. I've heard other people comment on it, and I think the problem here is that you end up with too much yellow overall, and it overpowers the level visually. On the arcade they're just another shade of blue, so they kind of blend in. So I think it's better to let it go, or find some other way of enhancing them. They already looked quite nice being solid blue.

6. I like blue for ladder color rather than aqua. I think the aqua probably works in the arcade because of how it goes together with the maroon/dark pink girders or something. It just doesn't seem to work here.

7. The new hammers look nice when stationary, but it's a little odd to see them change shape when he's swinging them. I think I lean towards having them look the same in both positions.

 

1. I like the multi-colored prizes too. Hope we can keep both. This latest version of mario is very encouraging.

2. Agree

3. Never noticed it really, but having your opinion is very helpful since you have a good eye for graphic design.

4. Never noticed this either, thanks.

5. Agree. I still don't feel comfortable with the yellow lines. I hope Darryl will give us an alt version with the original blue girders once everything else is completed.

6. Agree.

7. Hmmm, what exactly is the reason for the change in shape?

 

:thumbsup:

[+MrFish]

7. Hmmm, what exactly is the reason for the change in shape?

 

I'll let playsoft or Darryl give a final answer here. But it's most likely due to the fact that when the hammer is above Mario's head, it can have the same resolution as Mario -- since it'll just use P/M pixels in the same horizontal P/M strips as him -- and therefore have the possibility of a more well-defined shape. When the hammer is in front of him, it probably has to resort to using a multi-width (double-width?) missile -- since there's no way to borrow from Mario's P/Ms without flickering (multiplexing) in this instance -- which would not have the same resolution and therefore have to be more blocky looking as it is. In the original A8 version, he just made the upper position graphic look blocky, so they have about the same look. I lean towards advocating this style, just to be consistent graphically.

Edited April 8, 2016 by MrFish

[Dmitry]

I have to say, I just tried the game, and it's a solid improvement

 

DK is my favorite game of all time on the Atari 800. It was good to start, but I like the new Kong especially.

 

I guess I'm playing a days old version, so my feedback may be out of date, but while on the whole I may like the blue better than the green - the green ladders are not bad.

 

The main thing that I do like more on the original than the new - is Mario.

[+darryl1970]

Nice job so far Playsoft and Darryl.

 

Some Comments:

My replies are not to argue the point, but to share as to why I will probably leave a lot of it as is. It's not that I don't appreciate the feedback. I do appreciate you taking the time and interest, and I hope anything that remains the same do not ruin the experience for you.

 

1. I like the new Mario. I really liked the old one, and just thought he needed his colors updated. But you've done a good job getting him looking and animated like the arcade. I agree with Tempest, if there is a conflict with P/M usage between Mario and the prizes, I'd rather see Mario in his proper colors than have multi-colored prizes. A nice touch, but I think single color prizes are fine, as long as they aren't using colors so close to playfield colors (as in the original Atari version).

If Mario was really suffering color-wise, I would agree, but a little more white in the face is not unusual for the home games of the time. This is more well-rounded. I think you forget how HORRIBLE the prizes looked. It really does make a huge difference to have both colors (thus 3). Again, I agree that Mario comes first, but he looks WAY better now. The colors are right (given the A8 compromises), and he doesn't look like that retarded UGLY Mario that was in the original, with an out of place notch for an eye, icicle nose, and two right arms. who COULD have thought that looked anywhere close to Mario? I thought the colors were fine. It was Mario's shape that made him look put together wrong.

Please note that the Colecovision has a slightly higher resolution and 16-pixel wide sprite. Thus, Mario can afford more detail and still be about the same size.

2. The new and different fireballs look good. Nice seeing them change when he's got the hammer too (second and pie level).

Thanks. I really wanted to have it as close to the arcade. playsoft really came through by adding the blue frames for each.

3. The new barrels look good, but they look too wide when rolling (when the sides are showing, not the ends). They look right when stacked, but you can see in the arcade that they are not as wide when rolling compared to the stacks. If you only have the choice between one or the other, I'd go with how they look when rolling, since this is what the player will be looking at the most.

You addressed this in your follow-up.

4. The original Atari version girder braces for the first level look better (and the other level they're used on). The thicker smaller ones look more like the arcade. The new ones look too thin.

I see your perspective on the thickness. My perspective is coming from the CLEANER look of the arcade. (The open area inside and the top and bottom levels being slightly thicker) Due to the low resolution of the Atari and scrunched space, something has to give. I have only seen positive feedback on these girders until now. The arcade has double layer tops and bottoms. The insides are not scrunched together and muddy like the original A8 version girders (only 4 pixels of empty space). From that angle, I think the current ones give it a more arcade feel. The original girders look like blobs to me.

 

I might revisit this a little. Looking at how it's drawn has me curious now if it could be done differently than both.

 

5. The use of yellow on the girders for the second level doesn't work too well. I've heard other people comment on it, and I think the problem here is that you end up with too much yellow overall, and it overpowers the level visually. On the arcade they're just another shade of blue, so they kind of blend in. So I think it's better to let it go, or find some other way of enhancing them. They already looked quite nice being solid blue.

I do wish there was another shade of blue available. While what would look best, I think the plain girders look worse. II think the brighter yellow makes it less over run, and that should be better in the latest brightness tweak. I tried red, and that is bad.. I might take a look at this again, but did lighten the yellow, and I made the holes bigger. I think it gives it a nice look. A good compromise for a graceful degradation.

6. I like blue for the ladder color rather than aqua. I think the aqua probably works in the arcade because of how it goes together with the maroon/dark pink girders or something. It just doesn't seem to work here.

I originally questioned it too, since these girders are much darker than the arcade. Early versions also had a darker aqua that did look out of place. Initially, I completely agreed, as I thought there was a clash. With the most recent tweaks, this combination has really grown on me, and it feels way more arcade-like to me.

7. The new hammers look nice when stationary, but it's a little odd to see them change shape when he's swinging them. I think I lean towards having them look the same in both positions.

It's a limitation of the Atari P/M graphic system and lower resolution. The hammer was also misshapen in the original A8, and it had weird garbage under it, in the down position. This cleans up the hammer in the up and stationary frames. I would hate to make two frames ugly, just to match the one with limitations..

 

 

 

I went back and reexamined the arcade barrels. They are actually the same size in both instances. I think it's more of an optical illusion that they look wider/taller when stacked because the graphic used there has darker pixels on the outer portion, which make it look thinner and more stretched out towards the ends. The rolling version -- being animated -- has one of its incarnations with lighter pixels on the outer portion of the barrel and darker ones on the inside, which tend to make it look thicker and less stretched out.

I noticed color makes a big difference. Some colors actually appear lower resolution. If Mario's blue color is too light, he looks really chunky and misshapen. It is really disheartening, because I needed the lighter blue to keep the blue out of his face. I truly believe any blue on may see now is just color bleed if you're not using RCA connectors.

 

I still think they're a tad wide on the version you're working on though. In comparison, the original Atari version's barrels were 1 pixel less in width than what you have right now.

I didn't recall adding any pixels to the rolling barrels, but I went back to be sure. I added a pixel to the falling frames, so they wouldn't be disproportionate. I think the 1-pixel you see is how the Atari makes some colors look lower res.

[Jinroh]

From Darryl and Playsoft just you know hacking away I'm amazed at what they've been able to do.

The multi-colour prizes really add a lot, in not making the A8 look like an inferior machine. The new white face Mario looks nearly identical to the Colecovision version which really encourages me as I remember it being the golden boy back in the day for DK.

 

All in all, I'd prefer err to the side of arcade accuracy, but that's just me. I really just love all these changes, it's amazing even for what it is now.

[+MrFish]

My replies are not to argue the point, but to share as to why I will probably leave a lot of it as is. It's not that I don't appreciate the feedback. I do appreciate you taking the time and interest, and I hope anything that remains the same do not ruin the experience for you.

 

Sure, I understand that; it's your work. I'm just putting some of my thoughts out there. If they're of any help in your work, great; if not that's fine too.

 

 

If Mario was really suffering color-wise, I would agree, but a little more white in the face is not unusual for the home games of the time. This is more well-rounded. I think you forget how HORRIBLE the prizes looked. It really does make a huge difference to have both colors (thus 3). Again, I agree that Mario comes first, but he looks WAY better now. The colors are right (given the A8 compromises), and he doesn't look like that retarded UGLY Mario that was in the original, with an out of place notch for an eye, icicle nose, and two right arms. who COULD have thought that looked anywhere close to Mario? I thought the colors were fine. It was Mario's shape that made him look put together wrong.

 

I don't think the old prizes looked that bad. They could be edited a little, in a single color to be improved. The main problem with the original Atari version prizes, to me, was that they were almost the same shade of blue used in the playfield. So just changing their color alone is an improvement.

 

Haha... I never noticed the "two right arms" on the old Mario. Something is definitely wrong there. No offense to Landon Dyer, the original is still a very good game -- especially at 16K -- and I still like the old Mario, two right arms or not. As I said, you've already done some nice improvements to how he looks.

 

 

I see your perspective on the thickness. My perspective is coming from the CLEANER look of the arcade. (The open area inside and the top and bottom levels being slightly thicker) Due to the low resolution of the Atari and scrunched space, something has to give. I have only seen positive feedback on these girders until now. The arcade has double layer tops and bottoms. The insides are not scrunched together and muddy like the original A8 version girders (only 4 pixels of empty space). From that angle, I think the current ones give it a more arcade feel. The original girders look like blobs to me.

 

Yes, the arcade version has double layer tops and bottoms, and two pixel wide cross supports. So with the tops and bottoms of the Atari version being single layer, I just think it helped at least having the cross braces thicker.

 

 

I didn't recall adding any pixels to the rolling barrels, but I went back to be sure. I added a pixel to the falling frames, so they wouldn't be disproportionate. I think the 1-pixel you see is how the Atari makes some colors look lower res.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, but I am talking about the "falling frames":

 

Edited April 9, 2016 by MrFish

[+darryl1970]

Thanks Mr. Fish.. I do appreciate your input.

 

As for the barrel frame, I was referring to the rolling, and you were referring to the falling. I see what you mean now.

I did make those a little wider.

Collision isn't hardware though, so none of the graphic tweaks really affect anything.

 

 

[Jinroh]

For the girders I think the current thinner version that is there looks the best.

 

Proportionally it looks right on to the arcade even if missing the little thicker lines. The arcade has more vertical resolution, so I think that makes up for it IMO.

[+darryl1970]

For the girders I think the current thinner version that is there looks the best.

 

Proportionally it looks right on to the arcade even if missing the little thicker lines. The arcade has more vertical resolution, so I think that makes up for it IMO.

Thanks. I actually spent the past couple days trying different "looks". I went back to the original, and just didn't like it as much. I had something that looked similar to the C-64 DK port. It wasn't bad, but it left a pixel gap between the bottom of girder and ladder. It was barely noticeable, but I knew it.

 

I tried removing the yellow from the rivets. I even tried dotted lines, which didn't look dotted. It kind of worked. After each comparison, I still preferred how it is now. I know Playsoft is pretty tied up right now, so no more hacks. He's already done more than I ever expected.

[+Cafeman]

I'm confused by the many versions so far. In the end, I hope there is a concise list of all the 'options', or maybe just 1 or 2 'final versions'.

[+darryl1970]

I'm confused by the many versions so far. In the end, I hope there is a concise list of all the 'options', or maybe just 1 or 2 'final versions'.

I am just sharing periodic updates before the final release. This allows for feedback.

 

However, there will be 3 final versions, which will all share the same final graphics, colors, and collision tweaks:

1. Original sounds & Game Start is "How High Can You Get?")
2. RMT Sound -- includes updated sound effects Kjmann & Tep392. This places the Kong girder stomp at the game start
3. 5200 version, which is based off of the original sound.

[gozar]

 

I am just sharing periodic updates before the final release. This allows for feedback.

 

However, there will be 3 final versions, which will all share the same final graphics, colors, and collision tweaks:

1. Original sounds & Game Start is "How High Can You Get?")
2. RMT Sound -- includes updated sound effects Kjmann & Tep392. This places the Kong girder stomp at the game start
3. 5200 version, which is based off of the original sound.

 

 

The original sounds one seems to have a regression in the hammer collisions. I should never die standing still with the hammer, but I do. And it doesn't take out the barrels on the level above me like the regular version.

[+darryl1970]

 

The original sounds one seems to have a regression in the hammer collisions. I should never die standing still with the hammer, but I do. And it doesn't take out the barrels on the level above me like the regular version.

 

Every version, including the arcade, will miss a barrel from time to time. It is a certain percentage, and that percentage of missing is made higher by two factors: The higher the level and whether Jumpman is moving or still.

 

As for the above collision, Mario should ONLY be able to hit barrels over his head if he is standing at the lowest point of the ramps. If you are used to the original Atari version, that is completely wrong to be hitting overhead barrels toward the middle of the ramp levels. The other thing that was wrong with the original Atari version was that Mario could jump and hit his head on the barrel above, starting in about the middle of the ramp level. Mario should ONLY hit his head on an overhead barrel at the very end (lowest point) of the ramp.

 

In a previous thread (I don't expect you to read every thread, but I share because there were no objections), I said that I had found a sweet spot to where Mario no longer hits his head on the barrels above him. This caused many deaths that shouldn't have happened. However, I shared, that the compromise was that Mario could no longer hit barrels on the ramp above him with the hammer.

 

So, to sum this up. Mario has always been able to miss, and you were just unlucky when you missed. Also, you are correct that Mario cannot hit the barrels on the overhead ramp with the hammer anymore, but this is for a MUCH greater good. It would be nice if there could be two collision heights -- one for without the hammer and one with the hammer. However, Playsoft is currently unavailable to spend any more time on this. If you or anybody else is capable of adding this functionality, PM me.