ElectricTroy Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I agree: The NES argueably has the best sound of any 8-bit system. I have an SMS, 7800, NES, and XEGS and generally find that to be the case. You've obviously never heard the Commodore=64. It could do amazing stuff, and nohing surpassed it in the 8-bit arena. Go listen for yourself: www.hvsc.c64.org Compared to the C=64, an NES sounds like a toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 ElectricTroy, Purely based upon the hardware abilities the C64 sounds chip is almost on par with POKEY However the ubiquity of the C64 saw far more developers creating software for the platform, so SID was pushed far harder than Pokey in the day. Hence far more memorable SID audio exists, and far more people remember SID tunes. To balance the Atari side I suggest you listen to this stuff: http://grayscale.scene.pl/en_index.php (ok so they cheat by having multiple Pokey audio -- still good though)... And this tool is AWESOME: http://www.infos.cz/raster/atari/rmt/rmt.htm -- this really shows it was implementation rather than ability that saw Pokey under used... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeV0 Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 The SID is an awesome chip, well for its period anyways. Finding a working one can sometimes be a bit tough though. The NES sound is the best for a console of its time, Never had any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricTroy Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I thought the Sega MS had superior sound abilities. Purely based upon the hardware abilities the C64 sounds chip is almost on par with POKEY Good opinion. Now, can you show me a comparison of stats to back it up? [EDIT: I listened to those Atari samples. The sound is similar to C=64, but with less fidelity. The Atari sounds "MIDIfied" with lots of tones and beeps instead of realistic-sounding instruments.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 If you are refering to the RMT stuff -- those aren't samples, they are just chip audio created with a sequencer... Grayscale use simple tech, but still, very good 80's retro sound If you are really into the chip spec etc I suggest you play around with RMT and the docs that go with it to see the real differences between the SID and POKEY. Also search here on AA for RMT threads -- several explantaions of the stuff can be found In reality it comes down to the fact that SID had SIMPLE to use functionality that was well exploited. POKEY on the otherhand is far harder to get great results from, but if you play with RMT you'll see just how flexible a chip it is. Easily on par with SID.... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Part of the reason 7800 games have bad sound is the quality of the programmers and the amount of effort applied. For instance, the effects in Robotron are almost arcade perfect. But the music in Mario Brothers and Tower Toppler is horrendous. It takes a lot more work to avoid bum notes when doing 2600 music, and a lot of work to make manual envelopes and prioritize the two sound voices to do sound effects with TIA sound vs. POKEY sound. In theory you should be able to do better sound with the TIA on the 7800 vs. the 2600 because the 7800 runs at 1.79mhz in 7800 mode and there should be more available CPU to do sound changes in the kernel. I just don't know how many programmers bothered to work that hard on it. For those who cite Galaga, that game is way too silent. There is no background effects at all. That ruins the game for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miqorz Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 If you doubt the power of the 2600 sound chip I dare you play Combat Rock and tell me that isn't a catchy tune! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Doesn't the 7800 have to clockdown to 1.19Mhz to access TIA? sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricTroy Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 If you are really into the chip spec etc I suggest you play around with RMT and the docs that go with it Screw that. I KNOW that the SID is better than the Pokey. I don't need to see specs... I'll just use my ears. (Translation: I'm not going to waste my time searching the net.) Anyway, I reject your "Pokey is better" opinion since you failed to back it up with facts. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I agree: The NES argueably has the best sound of any 8-bit system. I have an SMS, 7800, NES, and XEGS and generally find that to be the case. You've obviously never heard the Commodore=64. It could do amazing stuff, and nohing surpassed it in the 8-bit arena. Go listen for yourself: www.hvsc.c64.org Compared to the C=64, an NES sounds like a toy. Actually, I have ... I just assumed we were talking about consoles so I didn't consider it. The C64 does have good sound. I just know that when I play my SMS, NES and 7800, the NES seems to come out the winner for sound more often than not. The SMS has the best graphics and the 7800 has the best animation. In the end, they're all fun to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Dear Electric Troy -- your 1st post said "can you show me a comparison of stats to back it up?" then your second post said, "Screw that. I KNOW that the SID is better than the Pokey. I don't need to see specs"... Now either you are a moron or can't read your own posts, so thanks for the intelligent dialogue! It really MUST be too hard to either click the link to the site in my post and view the documentation or search for RMT on AA and see the other threads here. You can draw your own conclusions after reading the information or even trying out the demos, nothing I say or propose will be useful I think, beyond all the info out there… And as we ARE talking consoles there are RMT replay routines for the 7800... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricTroy Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 You're right. I'm too lazy to go search the site for Pokey specs. But then again, I'm not doing anything now except watching Friends, so maybe I'll go search now. . . . (later) I visited the RMT website. How on earth am I supposed to read Czech? So then I searched the AA.com website like you suggested and found this: http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.p...ght=pokey+specs Sheddy "From a purely hardware point of view, I doubt anyone could seriously argue that POKEY is better than SID for music. SID is a proper synth on a chip - several different waveforms,( esp. sine), hardware ADSR, 3 (or 4?) 16 bit channels, filters. POKEY limited to (almost) square waves, 2 channels of 16 bit sound (but 4 of 8bit), awkward filter. " I think these statistics support MY view that SID is the best music in an 8-bit system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Well - that's Sheddy's OPINION, the thread also predates the release of RMT -- I see no data there one way or the other to support those thoughts... The RMT website is in English - what are you on about -- http://www.infos.cz/raster/atari/rmt/rmt.htm From the site 1o mins ago: RMT Main features Mono 4 tracks / stereo 8 tracks. 254 tracks, each with its own length (256 beats max.) and with support for track loop. 64 instruments (stereo, instrument table up to 32 steps - 2 types and 2 modes with loop, instrument envelope up to 32 steps with loop, portamento, filter, 16bit bass, volume slide, volume minimum, vibrato, frequency shifting, etc.). Fully automatic management of AUDCTL register (filters, 16bit basses) and/or manual AUDCTL settings. Support for "volume only" forced output. Note portamento up/down effect. Instrument envelope commands for note/frequency shifting and support for special "like a C64 SID chip" filtering. Up to 256 lines for song (with "goto line" support). Beat speed 1 to 255 (1/50 to 255/50 sec). Instrument speed 1 or 2 per screen (1/50 or 1/100 sec). Main input/output song file format: RMT song files (*.rmt). Input/output instrument file format: RMT instrument files (*.rti). Export formats: RMT stripped song file (*.rmt), SAP file (*.sap), XEX Atari executable MSX file (*.xex). Support for speed/size optimizations of RMT assembler player routine for concrete RMT module (very useful for background music in demos, games, etc.). MIDI IN support! I would say that true 16bit audio, a 9 octave range and a full 4 voices are key Pokey features for videogame use -- both for Music and for SFX. Of course SFX being the really strong feature of POKEY, far surpassing SID's ability to generate non musical sfx... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricTroy Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 I'll crosspost this to the C=64 experts at lemon64.com and see what they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Er -- you mean expert C64 fanboys sTeVE, expert Atari fanboy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricTroy Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 I'm back! (1) The specs you posted were for a program, not the actual chip. (2) Here are the CHIP specs: POKEY: -4 channels with 8 bit frequency dividers -2 waveforms (noise waveform can use different noise polygons) -a high pass filter which doesnt allow configuration SID: -3 channels with 16 bit frequency dividers -4 waveforms + waveform combinations -a configureable bandpass filter Plus: -Attack-Decay-Sustain-Release curve for each channel -ring modulation -configureable pulse width on square waveform Conclusion: SID is highly superior over POKEY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miqorz Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 I swear the SID chip has got to have one the most over rated sound chips ever! It's not that damn good! It's allright for it's time but heh I've heard 2600 games with better sound than some of the "1337 soundz0rz" games for the c64... And no the SID chip isn't better than the nes sound chip not by a long shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenski Posted May 19, 2003 Author Share Posted May 19, 2003 I can't believe people are getting so wound up over which has the better sound chip, the Atari or the C64. From personal experience , back when I played Atari and C64 versions of UK released tape games side by side the C64 had the egde when it came to sprites, the Atari had the edge when it came to sound. Oh dear, perhaps I wound people up some more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaManFan Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 I'm one of the biggest 7800 fanboys on the block (I've got all the games, including one never released at all and another never released in the U.S.) and I still say it blows chunks compared to my C-128 in C-64 mode. Now 7800 games with Pokey (Ballblazer, Commando) are "decent." Let me repeat that, "decent." They still don't hold a candle to what the C-64 architecture can do right out of the box. I'm not even going to bother with the esoteric arguments about what one can make what sine waves and how many voices one can modulate over the other. I know what I hear, with my own ear. C-64 wins hands down, and it hardly even matters one bit - why? I don't love gaming any more on one or any less on the other. Sound and music is nice, but gameplay is paramount. The first time I actually cared about a soundtrack as much as the gameplay was Final Fantasy VII, and that's over a decade after the heyday of either system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 Sorry about getting dragged into that SID/POKEY crap. For goodness sake its 7800 audio we are talking here -- it can use the POKEY, so modern 7800 games could use the RMT method for creating GREAT audio! And by that standard I think could have aurally equalled the NES audio with the right effort and comitment from teh developer... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricTroy Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 I've heard 2600 games with better sound than some of the "1337 soundz0rz" games for the c64... Uh huh. Right. The 2600 was a music machine. (cough). I suggest you visit www.hvsc.c64.org so you can be blown away. No 2600 could create that level of sound. Neither could Pokey. Or NES. SID was the best musical chip in an 8-bit machine. Period. I have both my ears and the published stats (see above) to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sku_u Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I've heard 2600 games with better sound than some of the "1337 soundz0rz" games for the c64... Uh huh. Right. The 2600 was a music machine. (cough). I suggest you visit www.hvsc.c64.org so you can be blown away. No 2600 could create that level of sound. Neither could Pokey. Or NES. SID was the best musical chip in an 8-bit machine. Period. I have both my ears and the published stats (see above) to prove it. Nice to base this statement on half facts you found on unreliable web sites. You're lack of regard for anyone else's OPINIONS is both deplorable and laughable. I suggest you take a course on research and statistics before attacking everyone else's opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApolloBoy Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 I've heard 2600 games with better sound than some of the "1337 soundz0rz" games for the c64... Uh huh. Right. The 2600 was a music machine. (cough). qotile.net I suggest you take a look at Paul Slocum's work, Troy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApolloBoy Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 So does the 7800 *have* to use the Pokey? Can't it use other sound chips? No TIA=No backwards compatibility with the 2600. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Kay Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 As a sidenote... A 7800 game with a POKEY onboard can also access the TIA chip, and as such, is capable of more sound possibilities than the 8-bit Atari. Too bad the 7800 never really took off - we could have seen some really interesting sound possibilities of the machine with both chips in use. Cheers! Joey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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