alex_79 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) Sony trinitron 28" with new settings using the service menu (v1.1 test rom): Cold: NTSC 23/228/11 PAL 30/273/09 Warm: (after about 40 minutes) NTSC 21/231/10 PAL 27/277/08 Edited January 26, 2017 by alex_79 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Sony Wega 20" NTSC Cold 26/219/17 Warm 25/220/17 Quasar 15" NTSC (an old bitch of a woodgrain TV, but she's still sexy and I love her!) Cold 40/191/31 Warm 43/187/32 ...and yes, these specs represent when I could see the entire rectangle. When I stretch either way, curve of the corners start to cut off the lines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) Sony trinitron 28" with new settings using the service menu (v1.1 test rom): So you gained about 5%. That's now close to your Philips, which so far has the largest picture. Edited January 26, 2017 by Thomas Jentzsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 Quasar 15" NTSC (an old bitch of a woodgrain TV, but she's still sexy and I love her!) Cold 40/191/31 Warm 43/187/32 Wow, that's quite a difference to modern CRTs. Which explains why Atari was that conservative. How old is that "bitch"? I suppose the screen is pretty rounded, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Wow, that's quite a difference to modern CRTs. Which explains why Atari was that conservative. How old is that "bitch"? I suppose the screen is pretty rounded, right? Oh yeah and we're talking 1982 here. Isn't she a beaut? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 True!Especially for a woodgrain. The game displays more than 200 scanlines, but I can see that any display in the corners would be cut-off. Maybe I should extend the test for e.g. 80 or 90% width. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Your test gave me an excuse to clean up some more of my old CRT's. Yes, I still use these for gaming; primarily Atari and Intellivision. Quasar 13" NTSC: Cold 29/208/25 Warm 27/213/22 Magnavox 10" NTSC from 1978: Cold 31/209/22 Warm 31/211/20 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 Thanks. Those have a better screen setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abstauber Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Sony PVM-1454QM Atari VCS PAL Light Sixer with S-Video Mod cold PAL (B/W): 40-260-12 NTSC (Color): 27-223-12 warm PAL (B/W): 37-262-13 NTSC (Color): 25-224-13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) Sony trinitron 28" with new settings using the service menu (v1.1 test rom):I just tried adjusting my little Sony and got from 222 up to 239 scanlines (also made the screen a bit wider). But eventually I will set it to (test result averages - standard deviation), so that I can check easily during development. BTW: When I move the bottom line one more row down, the line is cut off exactly in the middle. I guess the vertical sync is starting there. Edited January 26, 2017 by Thomas Jentzsch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Oh yeah and we're talking mid 80's here. Isn't she a beaut? tv.jpg Nice! There's most likely adjustments for size & position of horizontal & vertical, either small knobs on the back or via menu accessed by remote. There's a bunch of Quasar manuals here, check for yours under both CRT TV and TV. Do note that the manuals are often consolidated, so even if you don't see your specific model listed it might really be there. For example the manual SP-2019D covers SP2019D as well as models TP1319DV and TP2009D. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 BTW: When I move the bottom line one more row down, the line is cut off exactly in the middle. I guess the vertical sync is starting there.Yes, I noticed the same thing on my set too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) Quasar 15" NTSC (an old bitch of a woodgrain TV, but she's still sexy and I love her!) Cold 40/191/31 Warm 43/187/32 Especially for TVs like yours with very rounded pictures, I have created an updated version 1.2. Here I added two more lines at the left and right, which describe 60% and 80% of the screen width. So, if you find the time, please repeat the test with the lines describing 60% and 80% widths. BTW: The new version also allows changing the total number of scan lines. That way you can (only if you like) test the upper and lower sync range of your TV. Just press joystick left or right for decreasing or increasing the total number of scan lines. The sum of the three values displayed is the total number of scan lines displayed. Initially these are set to 262 (NTSC) and 312 (PAL) and toggling color/BW resets the values. Sync frequency calculation: NTSC TV: 15734/calculated total scan lines PAL TV: 15625/calculated total scan lines My PAL Sony syncs between 244 (64.0 Hz) and 360 (43.4 Hz) scan lines. Between 288 and 289 scan lines it switches between NTSC and PAL screen size. ScreenSize v1.2.bin Edited January 27, 2017 by Thomas Jentzsch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maiki Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I have tested 3 CRT TVs and I have to correct myself. At least some CRT TVs are actually capable of displaying 240p 60 Hz if you adjust the picture. The modern 4:3 TVs have the option of switching to 16:9 mode which is the easiest way to get all visible scanlines (the picture gets squashed). I have used this mode in both TVs that support it. The third one does not have that option and I had to minimize the V AMP value in service menu. I wonder if there is any difference between Atari 2600 RF and VGA to 15 kHz RGB Advance MAME because I am pretty sure that Advance MAME did not display such high number of scanlines as 2600, but it was more than 10 years ago and different TV sets. all tests cold only • 15 inch flat CRT TV with DVD player/writer Maxim 11-55 DVD15TVRU V6RW 16.04.06 with screen adjusted for Xbox Soul Calibur 2 60 Hz: 4:3 mode: lines fully visible: 60 Hz: 27/222/13 50 Hz: 27/272/13 lines disappeared: 60 Hz: 25/227/10 50 Hz: 25/277/10 16:9 mode: lines fully visible: 60 Hz: 22/233/07 50 Hz: 22/283/05 lines disappeared: 60 Hz: 21/236/05 50 Hz: 21/286/05 • 14 inch rounded CRT TV Luxtronic made 2009 Turkey AK56-IDTV-9551-0.0.69-GR4: 16:9 mode: lines in the middle fully visible: 60 Hz: 17/239/06 50 Hz: 20/285/07 lines disappeared: 60 Hz: 16/241/05 50 Hz: 19/288/05 • 14 inch rounded CRT TV Daewoo K14V3N made late 90s / early 2000s (?) service v 2.11: 4:3 mode V AMP 0: only tested 60 Hz: lines visible in the middle: 17/239/06 lines disappeared: 16/241/05 I expected the flat screen CRT to beat the traditional ones but no, the curved CRTs clearly won and are in fact able to display active 239-241 scanlines at least in the horizontal middle. The question is, since flat CRT does not have curved corners, if the lower value is somehow related to that, and that the traditional CRTs did not display the lines in the corners already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 Thanks for the multiple tests, maiki. What do you mean with "lines disappeared" and "lines visible in the middle"? Are you testing for the innermost rectangle of version 1.2? I am surprised that this makes any difference for a "flat" TV and even more that the difference is larger than for rounded TVs. So I suppose you were testing using version 1.1 and mean that the top and bottom lines have completely disappeared. Correct? But then I need the data when the lines are completely visible, not only in the middle. For the latter I have created version 1.2 especially for rounded TVs, were we have defined areas for the "middle". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambouis de l'Atari Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) Still with my old 39cm PAL Philips, using 1.2 : I won't state cold figures, as it gets warm within seconds 80% 29/269/14 60% 29/271/12 Could be higher if my screen was truly horizontal, but it's a little oblique I did not understand the purpose of the left/right tweak. My screen seems to accept a wide range of scanlines count. When decreasing, I notice it switches to 60Hz somewhere. I can add a lot of scanlines without rolling too, but if I manage to show the rectangle, I get bigger overscan and smaller actual visible screen, which I believe is the contrary of what you'd want ! Edited January 27, 2017 by Cambouis de l'Atari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 Thanks for the update. Looks like the rounding costs only 4 scan lines in your case. The left right option is more or less a bonus. For that test, the rectangle is irrelevant. You just can try it to find the sync range of your TV and when (or if) it switches between PAL and NTSC. There have been some NTSC TVs reported, which only can handle very little deviation from 60Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigO Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) Will try to dig out the other TV's later... Tested with version 1.2 NTSC Sylvania 32" Cold: 30, 213, 19 Warm: 30, 213, 19 (Heavy 6'er, RF output) It was kind of interesting to watch the screen stop rolling then display multiple, stable images, each much shorter vertically than the displayed scan line count as I ran the total scan lines way up above a reasonable number. Edited January 28, 2017 by BigO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maiki Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 I used 1.1. I will try the latest version. For traditional TVs I took 2 values: lines visible in the middle = not visible in the corners but fully visible around horizontal middle. Disappeared = the first value when lines start not to show at all. Flat CRT just either shows the whole scanline or nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0c7 Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Philips 13 inch TV/VCR combo from 2001 (NTSC). Cold 29/213/20 Warm 28/215/19 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Okay, these are all "old' curved CRT's using the new 1.2v: Quasar 15" 60 - 20/229/13 80 - 22/225/15 100 - 41/190/31 Quasar 13" 60 - 24/222/16 80 - 24/220/18 100 - 28/210/24 Symphonic (Funai) 13" 60 - 27/219/16 80 - 28/217/17 100 - 31/209/22 …got interrupted by unexpected company in the middle of this, so these values are while fairly warmed up. Spent some time fiddling with the 15" Quasar the other day, but no vertical width pot to speak of. And I diddled each and every one of them! lol Oh and gave away the little 10" Magnavox, so can no longer test that one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share Posted January 29, 2017 Thanks for testing the 60%/80% widths. Looks like the 15" Quasar is either the most rounded (+39! lines at 60%) or maybe its width is set up very wide. So to be safe for those old rounded TVs, you can use quite a lot of lines (~220), but you have to avoid displaying anything important (e.g. score) near the corners (up to 20 lines top and bottom). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maiki Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 v 2.2, 60 Hz only, 15 inch flat CRT from 2006 + 14 inch traditional CRT from 2009, 4:3 with no adjustments, 16:9 with all scanlines visible 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Thanks for testing the 60%/80% widths. Looks like the 15" Quasar is either the most rounded (+39! lines at 60%) or maybe its width is set up very wide. It's pretty rounded, but yes, the width is set way too wide. The 100% lines are all the way at the sides. All I was able to adjust was the centering. Wish I could shrink the pic some, but no such luck. A component must be out of spec or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share Posted January 29, 2017 If you dare, you could open it (high voltage!). There must be some pots around the end of the cathode which might allow adjusting the width. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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