800 keycaps

[SviRu]

12 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

Hi. I'd be hugely cautious about your chosen power supply. Get it wrong and your could fry the 800!!

 

So long as the power supply is definitely AC and not a DC power supply, and has the same output range as I've detailed above it will be OK.  

 

Upload an image of it and it's spec if in doubt. Not worth the risk not getting the power supply spec right first time round. 

 

The info is all here on AA, you just need to search for it. I tend to use Google and prefix a search with AtariAge. 

 

Another thing to bare in mind is because the 800 is older than the Xl/XE it had an older OS. I am over simplifying it but it means some games for XL/XE won't run on it, irrespective of the Ram requirement.

 

The best advice now you have your 800 is to spend lots of time searching and reading up on things. You'll be in a better position to enjoy the machine that way and will avoid disappointment investing in something you find isn't right for you. 

 

Again check out the newbies pinned topic on the forum, which also has a link to the atarimania website Atari faq. 

 

As I always say, it's retro computing so you have to read up on a lot and there is a learning curve. It's very rewarding and interesting learning about everything. 

 

Edit: also the 800 doesn't have certain signals hooked up internally that at XL/XE has.. This can mean some carts won't work without some small internal tweaking:

https://www.wudsn.com/index.php/productions-atari800/tools/thecart/atari-800-fix

 

Not trying to put you off getting a cart. I suspect AVG cart might be a good one. I still think Fujinet via Sio port will be a very good option for you. Lots of info and dedicated Fujinet threads on AA including a pinned one. 

I just got 1.3A PSU but it gives 12AC on the output. Without anything connected to it. Is it safe to use? Is it normal to have 12v AC before load?

[Beeblebrox]

@SviRu  Where country are you based in? (I can't tell as you don't have it indicated in you profile).

 

I'd really advise against using the PSU you have. You don't wanna me messing around with these things and potentially fry a vintage 40+ year old classic like the 800 because you are in a rush.

 

You are looking to run on a 1.3a psu but the spec for the 800 is a 3a, 9v:

 

3000ma (3a) 9v 27VA AC/AC

 

If you are able to source an original Atari 800 PSU great, or get the one I linked to before, (with the end plug adapter I also linked to earlier):

https://www.poweradaptorsuk.co.uk/3000ma-3a-9v-27va-acac-mains-power-adaptor-277-p.asp

 

I can't answer your question about the 12v AC before load - but again I'd just try to go for the correct spec from the outset - especially when you can buy it.

 

BTW there are forum members on AA in the know about power supplies for the A8 range so someone may well comment. I am basing my comments on my own experience and common sense.

 

 

 

[SviRu]

14 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

@SviRu  Where country are you based in? (I can't tell as you don't have it indicated in you profile).

 

I'd really advise against using the PSU you have. You don't wanna me messing around with these things and potentially fry a vintage 40+ year old classic like the 800 because you are in a rush.

 

You are looking to run on a 1.3a psu but the spec for the 800 is a 3a, 9v:

 

3000ma (3a) 9v 27VA AC/AC

 

If you are able to source an original Atari 800 PSU great, or get the one I linked to before, (with the end plug adapter I also linked to earlier):

https://www.poweradaptorsuk.co.uk/3000ma-3a-9v-27va-acac-mains-power-adaptor-277-p.asp

 

I can't answer your question about the 12v AC before load - but again I'd just try to go for the correct spec from the outset - especially when you can buy it.

 

BTW there are forum members on AA in the know about power supplies for the A8 range so someone may well comment. I am basing my comments on my own experience and common sense.

 

 

 

Thanx. I have connected it to C128 PSU. It gives 10v AC without load. Atari booted. Keyboard working fine. The only issue I have is that the screen is black and white. I use standard ATARI 800XL cable. 800XL was connected via composite. Hmm.

[Beeblebrox]

12 minutes ago, SviRu said:

Thanx. I have connected it to C128 PSU. It gives 10v AC without load. Atari booted. Keyboard working fine. The only issue I have is that the screen is black and white. I use standard ATARI 800XL cable. 800XL was connected via composite. Hmm.

ok,  bit confused. You have used a C128 PSU on this?

 

Also - where are you based? 

 

The screen being black and white could be various reasons. It could be cable related, could be that you have a PAL 800 but is has an NTSC CPU personality board plugged in  -instead of a PAL personality board. Could also be a transitor has gone on the video circuit, and a few other things.

 

If I know where you are based it would help.

 

Can you also take a photo of the screen and upload it?. Also the underside of the computer - take a photo of the label and upload it.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[SviRu]

2 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

ok,  bit confused. You have used a C128 PSU on this?

 

Also - where are you based? 

 

The screen being black and white could be various reasons. It could be cable related, could be that you have an NTSC CPU personality board plugged in  -instead of a PAL personality board.

 

If I know where you are based it would help.

 

Can you also take a photo of the screen and upload it?. Also the underside of the computer - take a photo of the label and upload it.

Yes I took 9V AC from good C128 PSU. Working fine. Was afraid of 12V AC.

 

I'm in EU. Poland now. Machine is from USA / NTSC - I assume. Pictures attached. If the pinout of the XL and 800 is the same on monitor out it should be color?

Personality board? I connect it to CRT philips monitor CM8833. I have color on my 800XL PAL on the same cable. 

[Beeblebrox]

24 minutes ago, SviRu said:

Yes I took 9V AC from good C128 PSU. Working fine. Was afraid of 12V AC.

 

I'm in EU. Poland now. Machine is from USA / NTSC - I assume. Pictures attached. If the pinout of the XL and 800 is the same on monitor out it should be color?

Personality board? I connect it to CRT philips monitor CM8833. I have color on my 800XL PAL on the same cable. 

ok, so you are using an NTSC machine on a PAL CRT (as far as I can tell as not too knowledgable with CRT monitor'd from that time). The colours will be off. It looks like there is some colour though. It's hard to tell with such an old monitor - it just looks very washed out. Do you have a modern LCD TV with composite in?  Try that.

 

I am not sure how much you know so I'll just go ahead.

 

You'll get NTSC machines for North America, and PAL for Europe/UK

 

NTSC was the TV display system convention for the North American system and runs differently from PAL.

 

The PAL system is 50hz, NTSC 60hz.

 

The NTSC CPU runs at 1.79mhz, the PAL at 1.77mhz

 

There are dedicated Video chips for NTSC and PAL. Your machine (if it is NTSC) will have NTSC versions of the ANTIC and GTIA chips and also the crystal on the board inside is a particular frequency set for the NTSC format. The Antic and GTIA chips sit on a plug in PCB board called a CPU/Personality board.

 

Upshot is that some games/demos created in Europe for PAL Atari's won't run correctly/or at all on an NTSC machine. They'll either play at diferent speeds, crash, not run at all, or the display and colours will be off, (because the NTSC pallette of colours is different to that of PAL).

 

You can convert an NTSC Atari to a PAL Atari, (the methods vary between the models).

 

**

 

Main thing to do firstly is plug in your Atari via the composite cable into a modern TV with composite inputs - to check the colour.  I don't think we can clearly diagnose things using the CRT just yet. You can use that 800XL cable on an 800 yes.

 

 

EDIT: in addition to the above can you take a photo of the backside of the monitor label specs and upload them?

Edited March 11, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[SviRu]

30 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

ok, so you are using an NTSC machine on a PAL CRT (as far as I can tell as not too knowledgable with CRT monitor'd from that time). The colours will be off. It looks like there is some colour though. It's hard to tell with such an old monitor - it just looks very washed out. Do you have a modern LCD TV with composite in?  Try that.

 

I am not sure how much you know so I'll just go ahead.

 

You'll get NTSC machines for North America, and PAL for Europe/UK

 

NTSC was the TV display system convention for the North American system and runs differently from PAL.

 

The PAL system is 50hz, NTSC 60hz.

 

The NTSC CPU runs at 1.79mhz, the PAL at 1.77mhz

 

There are dedicated Video chips for NTSC and PAL. Your machine (if it is NTSC) will have NTSC versions of the ANTIC and GTIA chips and also the crystal on the board inside is a particular frequency set for the NTSC format. The Antic and GTIA chips sit on a plug in PCB board called a CPU/Personality board.

 

Upshot is that some games/demos created in Europe for PAL Atari's won't run correctly/or at all on an NTSC machine. They'll either play at diferent speeds, crash, not run at all, or the display and colours will be off, (because the NTSC pallette of colours is different to that of PAL).

 

You can convert an NTSC Atari to a PAL Atari, (the methods vary between the models).

 

**

 

Main thing to do firstly is plug in your Atari via the composite cable into a modern TV with composite inputs - to check the colour.  I don't think we can clearly diagnose things using the CRT just yet. You can use that 800XL cable on an 800 yes.

 

 

EDIT: in addition to the above can you take a photo of the backside of the monitor label specs and upload them?

I went to the garage for my old 46 inch led tv.. Hooked via composite > same cable. Voila - color is here...  Thnx. Does it mean I won't be able to get color even on SVIDEO / chroma luma? The same problem as composite? 

[Beeblebrox]

31 minutes ago, SviRu said:

I went to the garage for my old 46 inch led tv.. Hooked via composite > same cable. Voila - color is here...  Thnx. Does it mean I won't be able to get color even on SVIDEO / chroma luma? The same problem as composite? 

ok, that's good to know.

 

As mentioned can you take a photo of the backside of the CRT monitor label for it's specs and actually also the inputs?

 

Also silly question but were the monitor's colour saturation levels turned up? If not  - crank them up.

 

I am still uneasy about the use of a C128 power supply on such a valuable/vintge Atari.

 

As mentioned if this is an NTSC machine you will have restrictions on running PAL based software,etc as mentioned. There is plenty of NTSC software out there - but the majority of EU coded games (especially coming out of Poland), favour PAL. Some games are coded to detect and work with both. (Likes of the excellent game The last Squadron for example).

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[SviRu]

41 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

ok, that's good to know.

 

As mentioned can you take a photo of the backside of the CRT monitor label for it's specs and actually also the inputs?

 

Also silly question but were the monitor's colour saturation levels turned up? If not  - crank them up.

 

I am still uneasy about the use of a C128 power supply on such a valuable/vintge Atari.

 

As mentioned if this is an NTSC machine you will have restrictions on running PAL based software,etc as mentioned. There is plenty of NTSC software out there - but the majority of EU coded games (especially coming out of Poland), favour PAL. Some games are coded to detect and work with both. (Likes of the excellent game The last Squadron for example).

 

 

 

 

I also have 1901 from commodore also PAL, 1084s... I see I might have an issue with this unit

[Beeblebrox]

what inputs are the at the back of the CRT?  Dumb question but are you definitely plugging into RCA jacks? (1 x comp vid and presumably 1 x audio?)

 

It is PAL at 50hz monitor so running an NTSC output (60hz) you'll have some display issues.  As I say it's an NTSC computer (presumably given you got it from America) so some PAL software won't run, or will but will possibly glitch, run at different speed as intended, have the wrong colour palette, etc.

 

Case in point here is a pictuer of the PAL game Henry's house running on a PAL Atari:

 

and running on NTSC (where the colours are incorrect):

 

*****************

 

Henry's house gameplay on PAL:

 

 

and on NTSC - which plays notably faster but at least runs on an NTSC Atari:

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[SviRu]

5 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

what inputs are the at the back of the CRT?  Dumb question but are you definitely plugging into RCA jacks? (1 x comp vid and presumably 1 x audio?)

 

It is PAL at 50hz monitor so running an NTSC output (60hz) you'll have some display issues.  As I say it's an NTSC computer (presumably given you got it from America) so some PAL software won't run, or will but will possibly glitch, run at different speed as intended, have the wrong colour palette, etc.

 

Case in point here is a pictuer of the PAL game Henry's house running on a PAL Atari:

 

and running on NTSC (where the colours are incorrect):

 

*****************

 

Henry's house gameplay on PAL:

 

 

and on NTSC - which plays notably faster but at least runs on an NTSC Atari:

 

Thnx. I will try to connect to 1901 monitor that has seperate luma / chroma input. Maybe I will have more luck there. If not - I will look for CRT NTSC monitor. I'm glad that it works! I was nervous that it might have broken video 😕 That would suck. I might look for RGB out mod for 800.

Edited March 11, 2023 by SviRu

[Beeblebrox]

I just checked out the 1901 spec. 

https://youtu.be/gNS55X4m8WY?t=53

 

So for that to work you would have to create a Din to chroma, luma and audio cable with the chroma on one rca and the luma on another.

 

If you have you heart set on a CRT cool. If on the other hand you wanna go for a more recent display, you could do worse than somethinhg like the LG Flatron M227WD. I have one and it has all the inputs you need.

 

 

 

[SviRu]

18 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

I just checked out the 1901 spec. 

https://youtu.be/gNS55X4m8WY?t=53

 

So for that to work you would have to create a Din to chroma, luma and audio cable with the chroma on one rca and the luma on another.

 

If you have you heart set on a CRT cool. If on the other hand you wanna go for a more recent display, you could do worse than somethinhg like the LG Flatron M227WD. I have one and it has all the inputs you need.

 

I have connected chroma and luma to 1901... no luck here - picture is better (sharpness etc) but still there is no color  It is a PAL minitor.

 

 

 

[Beeblebrox]

How have you connected chroma and luma separately on a composite cable? If you have a standard din to composite cable it has a composite video rca, (yellow), and one red and one white rca for right and left audio respectively. In order to use your 1901 monitor which has luma and chroma separated you would need a custom cable that has luma on one jack, chroma on the other and audio as well. 

 

So bottom line is - if you are just plugging in the yellow rca into one of the 1901 rca Jacks, (chroma or luma) and either the red or white audio into the other, you will only get black and white. In my experience very few displays offer a separate chroma and luma input. Normally you get composite av, sometimes S-video. Again I am not too familiar with ol skool CRT monitors.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[SviRu]

15 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

How have you connected chroma and luma separately on a composite cable? If you have a standard din to composite cable it has a composite video rca, (yellow), and one red and one white rca for right and left audio respectively. In order to use your 1901 monitor which has luma and chroma separated you would need a custom cable that has luma on one jack, chroma on the other and audio as well. 

 

So bottom line is - if you are just plugging in the yellow rca into one of the 1901 rca Jacks, (chroma or luma) and either the red or white audio into the other, you will only get black and white. In my experience very few displays offer a separate chroma and luma input. Normally you get composite av, sometimes S-video. Again I am not too familiar with ol skool CRT monitors.

I used new cable chroma to chroma luma to luma. All good here. But NTSC in SVIDEO format is still displayed as black and white :(. I'm wondering about VBXE on 800. It should give RGB signal.

[Beeblebrox]

Sorry, still confused. Can you upload an image of the cable you are using? Afaik there isn't a din to luma and chroma cable ready made. Not sure why you are mentioning svideo as that monitor doesn't have an svideo input afaik. 

 

In terms of VBXE.. It's a big upgrade as only recently successfully implemented. You need the VBXE, the carrier board, and an incognito board. Very costly when you add it all up. See this :

 

 

 

There are two other options. 

 

1) super colour cpu board by tf-hh, around  £65 if I recall - although not sure if you get rgb

2) Sophia 2 DVI - but this is intrusive and needs the aluminium Faraday cage cutting to allow the ribbon cable to access the Sophia 2 pbi. 

 

If you don't need rgb then you could install UGV:

https://ataribits.weebly.com/ugv.html

 

Again all of these are intrusive upgrades. 

 

I'd personally just stick with your modern-ish display you have in the garage which you tested successfully earlier and got a colour output on. 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[SviRu]

1 hour ago, Beeblebrox said:

Sorry, still confused. Can you upload an image of the cable you are using? Afaik there isn't a din to luma and chroma cable ready made. Not sure why you are mentioning svideo as that monitor doesn't have an svideo input afaik. 

 

In terms of VBXE.. It's a big upgrade as only recently successfully implemented. You need the VBXE, the carrier board, and an incognito board. Very costly when you add it all up. See this :

 

 

 

There are two other options. 

 

1) super colour cpu board by tf-hh, around  £65 if I recall - although not sure if you get rgb

2) Sophia 2 DVI - but this is intrusive and needs the aluminium Faraday cage cutting to allow the ribbon cable to access the Sophia 2 pbi. 

 

If you don't need rgb then you could install UGV:

https://ataribits.weebly.com/ugv.html

 

Again all of these are intrusive upgrades. 

 

I'd personally just stick with your modern-ish display you have in the garage which you tested successfully earlier and got a colour output on. 

 

 

Thanks! By SVIDEO I mean chroma and luma (seperate cables) DIN > chroma, luma, audio - RCA jacks  I see... so you need BOTH VBXE and incognito. But I would be ok with this - regarding price. So only this solution is a solution  But I think that would be an ultimate 8bit ATARI then. I read that if you use composite or chroma luma - it does not matter - with NTSC it will be black and white on PAL  monitor.

[Beeblebrox]

Still confused. Can you upload an image of your video cable? 

 

Did you make your own din to luma/chroma cable then? 

 

The VBXE upgrade for the 800 is not for the faint hearted.  Aside cost there is a lot of nodding involved. As per video you need to make the 800 compatible with xl/XE via the incognito mod, then add the VBXE carrier board and buy a a VBXE. So you are taking near  £250.

 

I think you are better off just using your din to composite on your other non CRT display. 

 

The other video upgrade options I mentioned are alternatives but I think you need to clarify things as I am not sure we are on the same page, (things aren't adding up).

 

 

 

[SviRu]

4 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Still confused. Can you upload an image of your video cable? 

 

Did you make your own din to luma/chroma cable then? 

 

The VBXE upgrade for the 800 is not for the faint hearted.  Aside cost there is a lot of nodding involved. As per video you need to make the 800 compatible with xl/XE via the incognito mod, then add the VBXE carrier board and buy a a VBXE. So you are taking near  £250.

 

I think you are better off just using your din to composite on your other non CRT display. 

 

The other video upgrade options I mentioned are alternatives but I think you need to clarify things as I am not sure we are on the same page, (things aren't adding up).

 

 

 

Yes. I made my own cable. Like in the pinout attached. I have 800xl for gaming but I wanted so bad for 800 to work as my main machine. I see 3 ways. Maybe 4... 1. Play on LCD - this is a no go for me. 2. buy NTSC CRT - maybe. 3. Install VBXE + INCOGNITO - less likely. 4. Forget and play on 800XL...

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by SviRu