Atari 8bit vs. C64

[emkay]

To bring it to the correct order:

 

C64 has two features, that are the reason for its success. The "more" in Colors in Hi-Res (Text+Sprites) and the promised SID-Sound. This two features made Games in new styles by easy programming possible.

Since Games up to the Lucasfilm-Games are seen again and again, people asked for new stuff. With the new games the C64 growed...

This "growing" on the C64 built a directive in graphics and sound until today. Near everyone (look at 2nd reality) wants to make stuff that is like C64 (and better of course). The ATARI lost that duell anyway...

 

 

To save the XL/XE series ATARI had to do better Human Interfaces (easier to program) in graphics and sound. Or to create libraries, that would have made it easier to program this machines at optimum.

 

... if .... when

 

 

Even ATARI created at least p*ss off software with simple 4-color graphics and runaway sound. If there weren't some polish programmers, that had not programmed some fantastic games with very good music, the ATARI would have died in this disease.

[Lord-Chaos]

To bring it to the correct order:

 

C64 has two features' date=' that are the reason for its success. The "more" in Colors in Hi-Res (Text+Sprites) and the promised SID-Sound. This two features made Games in new styles by easy programming possible.

Since Games up to the Lucasfilm-Games are seen again and again, people asked for new stuff. With the new games the C64 growed...

This "growing" on the C64 built a directive in graphics and sound until today. Near everyone (look at 2nd reality) wants to make stuff that is like C64 (and better of course). The ATARI lost that duell anyway...

 

 

quote']

 

I think that the XL lost not because of technical reasons but because of commercial reasons only.

 

The Sinclair Spectrum was inferior to the C64 , limited colors , no sprites , no scrolling , only a "Beeper" sound , only tape support , but there were hundreds of games , in the UK it was more successful then the C64 - although it was a much weaker machine.(But it was much cheaper)

 

The only problem was that the Tramiels killed the 8 Bits to create the ATARI ST.After 1985 almost no big publisher released games.

 

But Electronic Arts,Ocean,etc. made Spectrum games.

 

So the XL only got poor ports of C64 games and games by very small companies , the C64 and the Spectrum got the "big budget" games.

 

That means we would have seen hundreds of technically impressive games that would never been possible on C64 IF more ATARI 8 Bits were sold.

 

They should have continue to support the 8 Bit systems , made them cheaper than the C64 and may add extras in the XL/XE systems.

 

Thimo

[svenski]

Up until 1984 the UK had expensive import 400/800s to keep everyone happy.

 

I remember that all my friends had a computer - all had a speccy. My parents had just divorced and money was tight, they chipped together and my mum dragged me around town at the time looking for a computer.

 

I remember walking into Dixons, and right at the back by itself on a display shelf was a speccy. "Wow" I thought...... "is that it?" . That small Spectrum 48K did nothing for me.

 

So, it was the Amstrad CPC. They were new, they were in your face advertising wise but they were expensive. Packaged with a monitor, the only one my parents could afford would have been the one with that crappy green screen monitor. Again, I didn't see the point .

 

So, off to look at C64s. That christmas Commodore had decided to bundle it with the music keyboard. That bundle put it on the edge of my parents budget. I thought writing music was for girls.

 

So back to Dixons. There, on display with a tape recorder, joystick and games was an Atari 800XL. I walked around a few shops and everyone had games for it. "Wow" I thought. My parents were laughing at the price.

 

The 2600 was already considered old and out dated back then, can you believe it, so it was never an option for me.

 

So, 800XL it was and never looked back I guess. Shame that within a few months major retailers dropped stocking atari software and distributors pulled the plug, apart from budget titles.

 

That, and the arrival of the ST pretty much did it for the 8 bit in the UK. My friends stopped laughing when they saw the graphics and sound on the 800XL compared to their humble speccies.

 

By the time I could afford an ST they were old hat and Atari was up to their usual tricks of having their heads up their asses and spending 5 dollars a year on advertising.

 

I remembered how Atari , in my view, had let me down all those years before and so I bought an Amiga 500. Eventually that got replaced with an Amiga 1200.

 

Of course in the store I managed I did my bit for 'the cause'. We stocked 8-bit games and had people travel 50 - 60 miles to buy. We sold the Lynx and the Jaguar when all everyone wanted were Game Gears, Mega Drives and Master Systems.

 

I watched as the Atari UK rep came around less and less often then was no more.

 

Then Commodore messed themselves up by venturing into PCs and by launching the Amiga 600. Shame.

 

 

 

Distributors of JINKS to the world.

"Mom, I need an Atari 7800, I wanna play JINKS!!"

Buy your copy today.

[emkay]

@Lord-Chaos

You have to think back to old 8-bit times...

 

I knew much more C64 than A8 Fans in 84/87.... The most used argument for C64 was "the games are sooo nice/beautyfull". This did belong to the colors! The sound was irrelevant at this time...

I saw for shure, that a game like Test Drive was not possible with 16 colors on the XL/XE.... in a time, I knew the HW-registers of the XL "by name" .

Ofcourse, the game is possible with 4 colors, but that was already done enough before. So, there was no argument for the XL at hand. Most of the Atari XL users got an AMIGA when it was cheap enough...C64 still lived on...

Please notice: Really good games are having gaming fun + nice graphics + good sound.

 

The conclusion is: The C64 had this functions easy at hand, to create well looking and sounding games (the rest of it is to forget)... that sold C64 itself. Commodore had only to produce it...

 

With some trickery there are up to 12 colors in a line usable at the resolution of 160x192 on the XL/XE. It is a hard way to produce Games with it. It was possible, but it cost time, that no Gamedeveloper had.

On the Spectrum, it was an ease (one sprite-routine for all games) to make colored graphics in HiRes, so it was no problem to create games as cheap as possible for both C64 and Spectrum.

[emkay]

I had drawn a Picture for a game I planned, but never finished. You see 8 colors, without changing colors by DLIs. The colors are fully usable for the game as the picture is drawn.

Please take note about the difference of the palettes of the XL and XE GTIA. The background is on XL a dark red/brown. The Screenshot is taken from ATARI800WIN, that uses a palette-type like the XE has.

[Lord-Chaos]

@Lord-Chaos

 

The conclusion is: The C64 had this functions easy at hand, to create well looking and sounding games (the rest of it is to forget)... that sold C64 itself. Commodore had only to produce it...

 

With some trickery there are up to 12 colors in a line usable at the resolution of 160x192 on the XL/XE. It is a hard way to produce Games with it. It was possible, but it cost time, that no Gamedeveloper had.  

On the Spectrum, it was an ease (one sprite-routine for all games) to make colored graphics in HiRes, so it was no problem to create games as cheap as possible for both C64 and Spectrum.

 

It´s true that making sprites etc. is easy on the C64 , but the ATARI already was dead , killed by the Tramiels , by the time the C64 really took off.

 

After the death of "old ATARI" , the Tramiels did not develop new 8 Bit stuff.Maybe a better ATARI XL was available in some ATARI lab ?

 

Maybe an ATARI 800 XL with an added Maria Chip or a better soundchip ?

 

But the Tramiels decided to "go 16 Bit" , and made only cheap 8 bit stuff as the 800 XE.

 

So companies could not make money with the XL and dropped it.

 

It´s not the problem that the 800 XL is difficult to programm for - it was/it is far more difficult to make ATARI 2600 games,but dozens of companies made games for it despite more powerful systems like Colecovision oder Intellivision with better sprites etc. came out.

 

It was the Tramiels´ fault , the same thing they did with all their computers.It was their fault that the Lynx and Jaguar were not successful and that the Falcon was no success.

 

The biggest problem is that the ATARI cannot do games exactly like the C64.Technically great games would be different on the ATARI and couldn´t be ported to C64 or Amstrad/Spectrum without loss.

 

But many games on the ATARI are ports from Apple II (many of them using HiRes with artifacting) and C64.

Apple II games look the same or better on the ATARI,since the Apple´s hardware is weaker.But they could have looked much better if they were written for the ATARI.

 

And most C64 game-ports look and sound worse since they have been ported fast and without much work.

 

But there are some games that look better on the ATARI : Dropzone and International Karate , only the C64´s music is a little bit better.

Or Ninja by Mastertronic , of course the Lucasfilm games and Alternate Reality.

 

C64-specific games like Last Ninja which uses HiRes sprites could not be ported 1:1 although Last Ninja was ported for the much weaker Acorn BBC and of course CGA IBM PC.

 

But games like Defender of the Crown would look more like the AMIGA version on the ATARI , other role-playing/strategy/adventures,too , because for graphics the XL has the advantage of many colors and DLIs.

 

As I´ve said before - another problem was that many companies did not support full 64K and made only 48K games.So some games like Spellbound have no music on the ATARI (but this one a better graphics since C64 version is an 1:1 Spectrum port).

 

Except maybe Mercenary,which had both 48K and 64K versions on the disk.

 

The Spectrum is a very "simple" computer,that made it so cheap and programming so easy.No custom chips , only one fast CPU.But most games look not very good , especially because of limited color choice and color problems when sprites move.

 

It was cheap and more units were sold , that means bigger market and more profit for software houses.And this was the problem of the ATARI.No big market = no profit = no games.

 

BTW with artifacting the ATARI can use 4 colors in Hires as it was used in many Apple ports , games like Treshold,Lunar Leeper,Ultima etc. use this technique.Too bad it doesn´t work on PAL systems.

 

Also the colors are quite ugly and look like old PC CGA games and cannot be changed.

 

Thimo

[TMR]

It´s true that making sprites etc. is easy on the C64 , but the ATARI already was dead , killed by the Tramiels , by the time the C64 really took off.

 

That seems a bit harsh on Jack Attack and family, the 8bit line had a five year run before he arrived on the scene and it's not as though they stomped on the line; the XE machines launched early 1985 if the source if found is to be believed, so that's a good six years to build up support, three of which the C64 wasn't around to get in the way of sales.

 

But the Tramiels decided to "go 16 Bit" , and made only cheap 8 bit stuff as the 800 XE.

 

The XE series were the equivalent of the C64c, just a recasing job to match another part of the line (in the Breadbin's case, the C128). Tramiel knew at the point he moved into Atari that 16bit was the future, he even had his eye on the Amiga until things went askew for him on that front. Laying the blame totally at Tramiel's door is harsh, he had a lot of legacy to deal with and Warner didn't exactly do a fantastic job of shifting the 8bits either. Atari were "failing" at that time (relatively speaking) and Jack turned that around for a few years until ultimately the company went the way of the dodo, but Commodore didn't fare much better and nor did Sinclair, Amstrad or a myriad of still-born manufacturers.

 

Commodore's post-Tramiel management didn't really like the C64 being their flagship for as long as it was, the appearance of the 264 series, the C128 and then the Amiga and the prototype C64DX (aka the C65) showed them trying not to hold still, even if the C64 manage to outlive all but the 16bit box and it's sales saved their arses when most of those lines failed to live up to expectations. Their promotion of the Breadbin was pitiful to be honest, i was involved with computer sales in the U.K. around the end of the 1980s onwards to 1997 and getting promotional gear from them was nearly impossible...

 

That said, we knew about the A1200 from a bloody Argos catalogue a day before it's official announcement and, when we phoned them, they denied all knowledge - and we were an official dealer!

[Goochman]

Pound for Pound the XL line was better than the C64 - BUT

 

Marketing and Sales wise the C64 stomped everyone.............

 

The XL series had capabilities no one really exploited since it was easier on the C64 to achieve better than average results

 

Maybe having those easy to use 4 color modes was a bad thing for Atari since it was too easy not to fully utilize the hardware.

 

All points aside shortly after the C64 came out EA declared the ATari line as 'Pirate Central' and quickly stopped producing top quality games for it and eventually none at all. This opened the door for other big software houses to follow suit.

 

If the C64 never came to be I believe the XL line may have made some inroads and possibly created a better future for Atari, unfort woulda coulda shoulda applies here

 

My $0.02

[emkay]

@Lord-Chaos

 

>But the Tramiels decided to "go 16 Bit" , and made only cheap 8 bit stuff as the 800 XE.

 

I know of a year (1986 ?), that ATARI dropped the whole 8bit-series and then they continued the production and support again. Maybe the ST wasn't sold as it should have to?

 

>It´s not the problem that the 800 XL is difficult to programm for - it was/it is far more difficult to make ATARI 2600 games,but dozens of companies made games for it despite more powerful systems like Colecovision oder Intellivision with better sprites etc. came out.

 

The C64 of Commodore was the 2600 of ATARI... or else. The high numbers of the sold machines (and the resulting buyers) was still compensating to put more work in development of a game.

 

 

>But games like Defender of the Crown would look more like the AMIGA version on the ATARI , other role-playing/strategy/adventures,too , because for graphics the XL has the advantage of many colors and DLIs.

 

 

This facts are old ... as old as the ATARI itself. After 20 Years of ATARI XL's Birth, I'm still wondering about Demogroups and Programmers... and why they never made gameconversions, that are using the full features of it. Maybe impossible, after all?

 

 

>Also the colors are quite ugly and look like old PC CGA games and cannot be changed.

 

You can't seriously compare the C64s colors with CGA. To have 16 colors for using in games, or only 4 colors... in 1983.... was essential...

[Lord-Chaos]

Pound for Pound the XL line was better than the C64 - BUT

 

All points aside shortly after the C64 came out EA declared the ATari line as 'Pirate Central' and quickly stopped producing top quality games for it and eventually none at all.  This opened the door for other big software houses to follow suit.

 

If the C64 never came to be I believe the XL line may have made some inroads and possibly created a better future for Atari, unfort woulda coulda shoulda applies here

 

My $0.02

 

Piracy maybe was a problem.There were many high-quality games before 1984/85 and after all the big companies left.

 

But they supported the ATARI ST , so it was not that ATARI was the problem for them.

 

But one thing for sure :

 

Despite the C64 seems to have the most fans , since it was sold more than any other 8 Bit Computer except maybe MSX , which was sold in Asia , don´t know too much about it - the 800 is still alive , there are still fans around , games get good bids on ebay , there are new hadware and software projects.

 

Other computers from that era are dead today.

 

I don´t hear much about the Amstrad CPC , not much about the Acorn computers or the Commodore C16/116/+4 and I think even the Apple II scene is smaller , but don´t know it (since the Apple was not common in Europe).

 

That means that the 800 XL is on of the 3 most-known 8 Bit systems in the Western countries - the C64,the Spectrum and the ATARI.

 

And since the Spectrum was only popular in the UK and maybe Spain , the ATARI could be number 2.

 

Don´t know much about the MSX systems , they were popular in Japan/Asia , but disappeared very fast from the European market.

There were some MSX systems by Sony , Panasonic or Philipps,but they did not sell.There also were MSX-2 systems with 3.5" diskdrives and some PC-compatibility , but they did not sell,too.

 

Ok,there is the PC , but although there are many classic games on this system and they still run on modern PCs , I don´t count the PC as classic 8 Bit system.

 

And there are hundreds of "forgotten" 8 Bit or part 16 Bit systems - like the TI 99/4A , the Colour Genie,the Dragon computers,the Sharp computers , most of the Commodore CBM systems like CBM 610 or old 8296 , the Thomson computers with integrated lightpens , the Aquarius and many more.

There is one collector who has at least 100 different 8 Bit systems by different companies.

 

And "parts" of the ATARI 8 Bit had more success in the AMIGA , for example the AMIGA sprites which are in fact some sort of advanced player missiles which can have SuperHires resolution in AGA models.

 

Thimo

[Joey Kay]

Really, the blame for the relative flop of the Atari 8-bits in comparison to other platforms lies before the Tramiel days-- at the feet of James Morgan back in 1983.

 

He sat on his hands while management bickered about where to manufacture 800XL's for the Christmas 83 season. Because of his snail's pace, Atari had too late of a start.

 

Morgan caused Atari to not have enough 8-bits available for a major push for the '83 holiday season, thus giving Commodore an easy lead in sales that year... and we all know how an established user base creates even more sales...

 

Cheers!

 

Joey

[TMR]

Piracy maybe was a problem.There were many high-quality games before 1984/85 and after all the big companies left.

 

The piracy argument doesn't hold water with me; the C64 had loads of pirates, the ST and Amiga as well and we should remember that the demo scene is a close cousin of the cracking scene, the former evolved from the latter during the period we're talking about. Blaming piracy is a common line for software houses who want to find an excuse to be elsewhere or who feel a certain user base need a kick up the arse to support them.

 

I don´t hear much about the Amstrad CPC , not much about the Acorn computers or the Commodore C16/116/+4 and I think even the Apple II scene is smaller , but don´t know it (since the Apple was not common in Europe).

 

There are still small Amstrad CPC and Plus/4 scenes, although it's reduced to a matter of two or three crews for the former (check Pouet, there are entries) and what appears to be a larger and recently more active base for the latter (my first C16/Plus/4 demo is nearly complete and my first Plus/4 game underway).

 

www.cpcscene.com

plus4.emucamp.com

 

And since the Spectrum was only popular in the UK and maybe Spain , the ATARI could be number 2.

 

Without questioning that order ranking (because i honestly don't know) i'll just point out that the Spectrum has fairly recently had massive support from the former Soviet Union in the form of clone machines like the Pentagon or Scorpion. Quite what the sales figures are for these hybrids is a grey area but a significant number.

[Heaven/TQA]

@ why demo coders do not make game conversions... esp. from c64

 

because they are lazy people...

but maybe a new challenge?

 

http://uce.pl/ikplus/

(international karate plus! c64 - atari conversion)

 

and you have to know the different platforms very well and i just know my atari 8bit machines (not counting 2600).

 

so when it comes to c64 ports i would assume that you may convert the game logic straight away but as it comes quickly to sprites than the real hassle starts... you can't even convert 1 c64 multicolor sprite to atari's hardware sprites.... so how will you convert than 8 of them? not counting multiplex ones???? and all with different colors... aaarg... and voila you have the 1st big milestone you have to achieve and manage. and doing all in 4 color fonts aaarg... could affect the game logic, the game speed etc.....

 

but maybe a challenge... and if you are taking the z80 versions.... you need spectrum tools, z80 knowledge etc...

 

if you haven't done this before and are not familiar with conversion jobs than it's really hard... maybe that's why demo coders do like their own games or messing around with effects...

 

@ emkay

 

your screenshot looks quite good! has some kind of "polish" touch...

 

hve

 

@ all

 

a game developed on atari and then converted to c64 looks at least as good as the c64 one... that's why i would not count for "dropzone", "7cities", "int karate", "alternate realtiy", "rainbow walker", "dimension X", etc...

 

@ all

 

possible games for conversion on atari

 

wizball?

paradroid?`

 

other ideas? maybe a team could start doing them? anybody interested?

 

hve/tqa

[Lord-Chaos]

@Lord-Chaos

 

>Also the colors are quite ugly and look like old PC CGA games and cannot be changed.

 

You can't seriously compare the C64s colors with CGA. To have 16 colors for using in games, or only 4 colors... in 1983.... was essential...

 

Yes , but I was talking about the ATARI 800 ´s with it´s NTSC artifacting.This created a 4-color graphics 8 screen , but it looked very similar to CGA graphics.

 

The colors are different on CTIA and GTIA.Just look at some Ultima.

 

But on PAL systems, it´s only black/white.

 

Thimo

[Lord-Chaos]

@ why demo coders do not make game conversions... esp. from c64

 

because they are lazy people...

but maybe a new challenge?

 

http://uce.pl/ikplus/

(international karate plus! c64 - atari conversion)

 

and you have to know the different platforms very well and i just know my atari 8bit machines (not counting 2600).  

 

so when it comes to c64 ports i would assume that you may convert the game logic straight away but as it comes quickly to sprites than the real hassle starts... you can't even convert 1 c64 multicolor sprite to atari's hardware sprites.... so how will you convert than 8 of them? not counting multiplex ones???? and all with different colors... aaarg... and voila you have the 1st big milestone you have to achieve and manage. and doing all in 4 color fonts aaarg... could affect the game logic, the game speed etc.....

 

 

hve/tqa

 

I´d say their are 3 categories of game ports C64 to ATARI ,

 

a) very easy - text adventures from Infocom , games without sprites , games which only use monochrome graphics on C64 as Head over Heels (which looks the same on both machines) or several Speccy to C64 ports

as Bobby Bearing and others.They could be ported 1:1 to XL.

 

A port of some rpgs like Ultima V should also be possible,since Ultima 1-4 look the same on the ATARI.

 

Vector-graphics games often use only a few colors to gain speed on the C64.So Elite , a lot of Flightsims and other games could be ported 1:1.

 

b) games with some multicolor sprites but not very fast games - can be changed to software sprites with player overlays to add colors on the ATARI.

 

Graphic adventures - you need to change C64 multicolor pics to ATARI DLI and Player-missile enhanced graphics , c64 pics are not a good source for this,better AMIGA or ATARI ST pics.

 

Games like Impossible Mission,Last Ninja,Defender of the Crown,Pirates etc. should be possible with some minor changes.

 

Or Bard´s Tale 1-3 , the XL could even do a more AMIGA-like graphics.

 

I once converted Bard´s Tale pictures to the 256 color mode of the ATARI - looks almost like the AMIGA version with some color changes.

 

c) difficult or almost impossible ports : Games that are very C64 specific - for example the Thalamus games - Hawkeye, Armalyte etc. , Katakis,maybe the Turricans or Wizball etc.

 

Software sprites on the ATARI may look great,but it´s not possible to use dozens of them so very fast games may not be portable or only with some changes - 1-color sprites,not smoothly moving character-graphics software sprites , no software sprite masking.

 

Some of the C64 games also use software sprites for fast moving objects (shots for example in Turrican).

 

But I´d say that the ATARI 7800 could do such games , because of this I wondered why ATARI did not use the Maria Chip in the XL models as 2nd graphics chips.

 

Thimo

[emkay]

.... there is a hard and long way to go ...

 

@Heaven

 

>your screenshot looks quite good! has some kind of "polish" touch...

 

a polish touch with 8 colors It is a part of my MCS experiments.

Maybe I will finish it ... Now with RMT it is possible to create music in a new IMHO better sounding style (I think you know what I mean).. A tool to edit MCS based pics will also be there in a not so far time

 

BTW: Now that the timing of RMT is up to 4 times of the VBI, it is possible to create up to 8 voices with one POKEY. So a "simple" three voice SID song with Drums, Baseline and Melody will no longer be a problem.

 

>you can't even convert 1 c64 multicolor sprite to atari's hardware sprites.... so how will you convert than 8 of them? not counting multiplex ones???? and all with different colors... aaarg... and voila you have the 1st big milestone you have to achieve and manage. and doing all in 4 color fonts aaarg... could affect the game logic, the game speed etc.....

 

To make colorfull actiongames on the ATARI X , you can chose by two solutions:

 

1. Make a fullscreen charactermode based background and split PMG horizontal and vertikal.

 

2. Use PMG with ANTIC mode e or f for overlays. Make the software-sprites usable without using PMG.

 

 

and

 

3. U can mix those modes in one Screen....

 

Example:Barbarian

 

The Title-/Scoreboard could use a charactermode with PM overlays.

The two green snakes may be set by using of two doubled Players.

The range of the fighting Barbarians can be made by ANTIC mode e with "normal" Softwaresprites as they already were.

The bottom of the screen could be filled by a charmode again....

[Goochman]

 

The piracy argument doesn't hold water with me; the C64 had loads of pirates, the ST and Amiga as well and we should remember that the demo scene is a close cousin of the cracking scene, the former evolved from the latter during the period we're talking about.  Blaming piracy is a common line for software houses who want to find an excuse to be elsewhere or who feel a certain user base need a kick up the arse to support them.

 

 

TMR,

The Atari 8bit line was singled out - regardless of the heavy pirating on the other platforms I think the Atari market was an easy one to hit since according to Jet Boot sales for software were soft. The big software houses used this excuse to pretty much elimnate good development for the 8bit.

 

Just my $0.02

[Nukey Shay]

True that...even in the early days, AppleII usergroup meetings were nothing BUT pirate trading and cracking discussions. Since skepticism over Atari Corp's support for the 8-bit line had already played it's card, piracy had a bigger impact.

[emkay]

Software-piracy never killed any Game- or Computersystem... this is a marketing lie.

New companies are killing old companies. New hardware killed old hardware ... and so on...

 

If there were better games on the ATARI X , it would have been sold many years further!

 

The new better looking and sounding games on C64 made other systems unnecessary. Even as the new better looking and sounding games on AMIGA made the C64 unnecessary. The PC from TODAY is making other Computers unnecessary.

Only the so "beloved" Games/Programs/Hardware of the past are making it necessary to uphold those old machines for every individual either.

For me it is ATARI 800 XL and AMIGA 2000.

I loved the feeling to handle them(programming, gaming etc.) and have some well memories about...

Those who don't know this old machines got their own favourites in Playstation (2) , Dreamcast, X-Box etc.

 

BTW: X-Box. If Software-Piracy was/is the killing factor of a Game-/Computersystem.... Why has the X-Box such problems to competite in the actual Fight against other actual Gaming Platforms?

Most Copies are still available for the PC and most Games are released at this time are for the PC.....The best Copy-Protection that is still active is on the X-Box!

[Goochman]

Why has the X-Box such problems to competite in the actual Fight against other actual Gaming Platforms?

 

 

XBox is holding its own but imagine if all the big software houses said 'No more XBox games due to piracy' - Even though the XBox doesnt have a replacement you think folks would continue to buy XBox's? Esp when Madden 200x and other big titles are never released for it?

 

Software houses have a big impact on platform popularity and viability.

[tyranthraxus]

I'm always up to argue the EA piracy claim. I'm sure that the reason

EA stopped support wasn't because of high piracy (we all know it was

worse on the 64) but because of just plain old LOW sales. Piracy is

just an excuse. EA originally had the Atari as its base system to

program for. Xmas 83 came and went and the 64 out sold everything

and EA had gambled on Atari being the winner. Their 64 ports saved

their company and they went full time on the 64.

 

For all of Tramiels mistakes, they did the right thing by favouring the ST.

The 8-bit market had been won by the 64 and Apple II. A bigger mistake

was the continued support they gave in the XE and XEGS line. Resources

would have been better spent on the ST & Lynx IMHO. As great as the

8-bit technology was it just never caught on.

 

John

 

BTW Commodore t-shirts can be bought at www.lemon64.com

[Lord-Chaos]

I'm always up to argue the EA piracy claim. I'm sure that the reason

EA stopped support wasn't because of high piracy (we all know it was

worse on the 64) but because of just plain old LOW sales. Piracy is

just an excuse. EA originally had the Atari as its base system to

program for. Xmas 83 came and went and the 64 out sold everything

and EA had gambled on Atari being the winner. Their 64 ports saved

their company and they went full time on the 64.

 

For all of Tramiels mistakes, they did the right thing by favouring the ST.

The 8-bit market had been won by the 64 and Apple II. A bigger mistake

was the continued support they gave in the XE and XEGS line. Resources

would have been better spent on the ST & Lynx IMHO. As great as the

8-bit technology was it just never caught on.

 

John

 

BTW Commodore t-shirts can be bought at www.lemon64.com

 

Some people say that the ATARI 800 was too expensive compared to the C64 and the 800 XL came too late.

Maybe it was just the bad time - ATARI had problems as the console market crashed.

 

So the cheaper C64 and in Europe Spectrum and maybe Amstrad computers won.

 

But by 1986/87 the 800 XL was so cheap in Europe , that ATARI sold more than expected and then decided to make new software and the 800XE and XF551 came out.They also sold some systems in Eastern Europe.

 

MAYBE a better price in 1982/83 could have made the 800 /800 XL number 1 or 2.

But ATARI lost money by this time and ATARI was not Microsoft who can loose money on every console they sell ...

 

But on the other hand - the C64 was Commodore´s only real 8 Bit success (and maybe the VC20) , other systems like C16/116/+4 and even the C128 failed (not much C128 exclusive stuff around).

Don´t understand why they made C64-incompatible systems like the C16 , without sprites ,without SID - 99% of the games are crappy budget titles ... They surely lost a lot of money with this one and other stupid systems like the C64GS (C64 console) with crappy games like Terminator 2 on cartridge.

 

Thimo

[TMR]

But on the other hand - the C64 was Commodore´s only real 8 Bit success (and maybe the VC20)

 

The VIC is probably best described as "respectable" on the sales front, it was declared obsolete in 1985 if memory serves so that was only a four year lifespan. The VIC was never really pushed, some of the recent demos show what the hardware was really capable of.

 

Don´t understand why they made C64-incompatible systems like the C16 , without sprites ,without SID - 99% of the games are crappy budget titles ...

 

The 264 series were a cost cutting exercise, the C64 contains a lot of custom chips (VIC-II, SID, two CIA chips). The TED was designed to be an all round replacement, it could do all three jobs in a single chip so the overall production cost of the machines was lower.

[Joey Kay]

I knew more people with VIC-20's than Atari home computers in the early 80's... not to say it sold better, just knew more folks personally with the VIC 20 system... likely because it was much cheaper...

 

Also, what was the C64GS - I never heard of that variation before...

 

Cheers!

 

Joey

[Lord-Chaos]

I knew more people with VIC-20's than Atari home computers in the early 80's...  not to say it sold better, just knew more folks personally with the VIC 20 system... likely because it was much cheaper...

 

Also, what was the C64GS - I never heard of that variation before...

 

Cheers!

 

Joey

 

The C64 Game System was a console based on the C64.That means a C64 without Keyboard.Some games like Terminator 2,Shadow of the Beast, Last Ninja 3,Flimbo´s Quest were released on cart.

 

But it failed,because a real C64 could play the same games,had almost the same price and at the end of the 80s the console market was owned by Nintendo and SEGA and with some disk-to-cart games Commodore couldn´t compete with Nintendo´s or SEGA´s games.

 

Strange - ATARI made the XEGS , Commdore the C64GS and Amstrad made a similar console based on the CPC+ (the most powerful of them) , but all failed, because the real computers were cheaper and had keyboards etc.

 

Today , it´s a quite valuable collectors item which usually gets lots of bids on ebay.

 

Thimo