Mendon Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I would like to make one cartridge suggestion, Mark: If at all possible, I would really like to have an Epyx cart with all the old games: the Apshai series, Crush-Crumble-Chomp, Star Warrior (I think that was the title.. you had missions and had to outfit yourself with a suit, weapons, etc), Jumpman, Pitstop I & II, etc.... As I said in an earlier post, I lost quite a lot of 8bit items due to the carelessness of movers when we moved to Florida 5yrs ago and my Epyx line of games was unfortunately included in those. All I have left is a Jumpman Jr. cart (which is kind of flaky in that you have to wiggle it in the slot to get it to work even after the contacts have been cleaned) and Crush-Crumble-Chomp. Since I have no technical knowledge, I'm not sure how many or if any of the Epyx titles could be put on cart but I'd sure like to have them once again, especially the Apshai series and Star Warrior (?). Mendon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+davidcalgary29 Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 and I didn't read criticism of anyone's pricing scheme anywhere in his comments. davidcalgary29, REALLY?! *I* was the one criticizing Jindroush? (baffled) Am I in the twilight zone or something?! I had to go back and re-read the whole thread to make sure I wasn't missing something huge! Were we reading the same thread? Mr. jindroush stated, and I quote: (re: Mark's pricing) "this seems rather unfair (read rip-off) to the people" To call someone's qualitative asking price for UNIQUE merchandise in an open market a "rip-off" is NOT a criticism??? This is news to me. I read that as not only critical, but rather insulting to boot. Mark has been totally upstanding and an all-around super guy to deal with, and I want to support him, so that he will continue to offer neat products to those of us who don't have the time or mania to bother burning our own ROMs. Whoever feels that the price is unreasonable, can feel free to burn their own ROMs, or continue loading from floppies. And they can do this all without asking pointedly adversarial questions (read: trolling/flamebaiting) and generally spreading bad vibes. I have no doubt that Jindroush is a total brainiac hotshot who can do ANYTHING with a 6502, but his stance towards Mark's business seems at best, snide; at worst, hostile. AFAIK no-one else, including Jindroush himself, is offering to create custom carts, just for me, by request. Yes, I am the one who commissioned the Alley Cat cart in the first place. Mark thought it was a good enough game to offer to the 8-bit community...and in classic fashion, he is accused of being a rip-off artist. Reasonable? Fair? You tell me. I'm not interested in any flamewar, but I couldn't let this one pass without saying something. Sorry -- I had interpreted Jindroush's earlier comments to be an analysis of pricing components for various cartridge types; I didn't read it as an attack on Mark's business practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I have a proposal for everyone! .... 1. Must be a NEW case, not refurbished. [We use new] 2. Must have NEW components, not refurbished. [We use new] 3. Must have a custom circuit board with solder mask and silk screen. [Our boards are made this way] .... To answer the question about other products: Video 61 uses "refurbished boards". That is why the pricing is lower! Mark I don't disagree with your cartridge pricing at all. If someone can make something, and gets X$$ for it, then more power to them. My question is, what do you mean by refurbished? This would indicate that something was restored to like-new condition. Is Video 61 removing ROMs from existing circuit boards and removing labels from cartridges, or are they simply using unused New-Old-Stock (surplus) components, or maybe both. Anyway, it's obvious that Sunmark does some custom manufacturing, and everyone has access to this software whether you buy from them or not, so if someone's unhappy with the price, they should come out with a cheaper Alley Cat cartridge. -Bry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andylama Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Mendon, Well said! My point exactly. The Honda and BountyBob examples are very appropriate. You are a more skilled diplomat than I And to Jetboot Jack: Please don't feel attacked--my post was not directed at you IN ANY WAY. Your points are valid, but IMO, they are wholly addressed by the "free market economy model". If Mr. Jindroush, Video61, Best Electronics, et.al. were ALL offering their versions of an Alley Cat cart, I guarantee that the law of supply & demand would drive that price right down to $20 in a hurry. But until that day comes, if Mr. SuperGenius wants to be the first guy on the scene to offer a cart that NOBODY else has for sale, he can charge $150 for it if he wants. Nobody is arm-twisted into buying it at that price. Lack of demand will force him to reduce the price if he actually wants to sell any. That's HIS problem to deal with as he sees fit, including possible withdrawal of the product for sale (which is what I am trying to protect us all from by supporting him). Think about this for a moment: Why is a cart of MULE a "great value", but a similar cart of Alley Cat is "overpriced"? It's simply because you liked MULE better, ergo, put a higher subjective value on it. By this logic, I must deduce that there are persons on this thread who don't like Alley Cat very much. Oh well, everybody doesn't like something. Keep your money. Let me offer you all this friendly warning: Mr. SuperGenius *may* be offering some carts in the very near future of titles I can almost guarantee you will want. I can also assure you that they will be available from no other source (do I hear any challengers out there?). Many of you will gladly pay the asking price, and be very happy with your purchases. Undoubtedly, there will be a few malcontents who will be upset that the product has been offered to them. Life goes on. Lastly, re: the piracy argument. Valid point in many cases. As you know, much if not most 8-bit software is now public domain. HOWEVER, I strongly suspect that there is not ONE SINGLE 8-bit user who does not own LOTS of "pirated" software. Kind of a moot point, really. Regards to all. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jindroush Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Lastly, re: the piracy argument. Valid point in many cases. As you know, much if not most 8-bit software is now public domain. HOWEVER, I strongly suspect that there is not ONE SINGLE 8-bit user who does not own LOTS of "pirated" software. Kind of a moot point, really. My point is not that his prices are generally high. I accept the argument that if there's demand, let them pay for that. My whole point was, that I feel, that he's making money of other's work. I can accept whole deal in this form: pcb is new, costs X1, case is new, costs X2, work, eproms, labels etc. cost X3. Rest is his profit. I still think that the profit is cca $20 for each cart, which is way too high to be 'fair' when we both know he's selling other's work. It's similar as the Atari Software CDs. If somebody sells then for $5 + postage, nobody will object, I think. But if somebody sells them for $50... This is just question of proportions: what is fair 'profit' on other's work and what is not. My point is that I can't believe that in those $45 are just fair 'distribution' costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jindroush Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 This should be a breeze for all of youRocket Scientists who think making these carts is a walk in the park. This is demagogic. You know that I was talking about the software, not the hardware, which you have already finished. I'm not going to discuss it more, 'cause: 1) You already have the product (I'm talking about hardware here) 2) Most customers would be from US, but since I'm on the other side of the pond, my sales would be worse, just because of international payments (I can't accept PayPal ) and international postage. To answer the question about other products: Video 61 uses "refurbished boards". That is why the pricing is lower! I don't belive that Williams boards are refurbished. Since it could be done in a few minutes, I am sure you will be posting to this thread within the hour that your Alley Cat cartridge is on its way to me and claim your $300.00!! This is nonsense. If you want to spend some money with me, send me $300 and I will send you Lucasfilm 4-in-1 multicart rom image I think that would be seller... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Ok -- I "personally" find MULE to be of good value -- since my original disc copy has died (the disc is knackered, it won't even allow data to be copied back on to it ) and I still play the game... And sure my comments are based upon the fact that my 150+ cart collection and some 250 original discs covers most of the ground that is being reworked here. I want to buy new carts, but but aside from personal needs to replace my defective MULE game I'm a bit concerened that unlike the 2600 scene or the 5200 scene the new carts we 8bit'ers are getting are not as good value or as innovative right now. SG is totally free to make or do what he wants, I likewise, am free to buy or not to buy, but as a member of a small community I would like to not feel that, like so often in the past, the 8bit world is full or rehashes of old work -- rather that new games or in my view (note just my view here) those carts with cool technical merit are coming along for my dollars. I am NOT knocking the efforts to produce Alleycat or Rampage -- I would buy neither as I bought them at the time of original release on disc and still have them working... I did buy Preppie and Preppie II on cart since I only have cassette versions, I did buy IK on cart too ('cos we play it alot at work!). Also these games were mooted for XE cart back in the day -- much as Koronios Rift and the Eidolon were too SG -- don't worry I will buy many of you carts I am sure, don't take any of this thread as any me trying to to do anymore than better figure out what I am to buy. Please no-one be put off by my posts, if you love Alleycat and want it on Cart SG has done a bang up job I am sure -- since MULE is great! sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Jindroush -- thanks for the techchical infos, IK is a great cart! I'd buy Lucas 4-in-1 without hesitation :):) sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Lucasfilm all in one would be great! Steve, international karate on Cart???? really? and you guys play it at EA???? come on... you should play NBA STReet Vol.2 or NFS underground or LOTR:return of the king or nightfire 2 or fifa or ssx or or or... challenge everything... are there any relicts of EAs glory days like 1st games? one on one... hard hat mack, etc? hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 We WORK on those games, but at 4 am you need some old skool to kepp ya going!!!! sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndary Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I tried to stop my self from commenting.. but I cant hold back anymore.… No one is forcing anyone to buy cartridges from Sunmark. For those who don’t like the Price or Games simply don’t buy them.. I don’t see any problem with that.. If Mr. J thinks he can make cartridges in better quality As Sunmark do… please go ahead who is stopping you!? Running a script to produce a .rom image is not the whole work… while some games are faster to convert.. there is still other work to do... i.e.. trapping the reset, compatibility check, etc.. Should I remind you J. how many times you asked me to test your work for V61 to make sure its working.. and I did reply that some does not explaining what is wrong… (Should I remind you about star-trek).. Both you and I use a PC as our development platform.. and we test our work on an emulator.. But when you start to make cartridges your self.. you will find that as much as good the emulator you think it is.. is not 100% the same as the real Atari.. just for Alley Cat, I had to redo the .ROM several times until I figured what I should fix so the game will work 100% good on the Old 800 system. If you are going to do a cartridge you better be sure it will work on 400/800/1200/XL/XE/XEGS/PAL/NTSC, otherwise you can only guarantee that the Cartridge will work on the exact same system you tested it on…and I can give you a tip.. There is still a difference between The Emulator and a real ATARI.. Sunmark Cartridges will work on All Atari systems unless specified different!!!. I was converting games to cartridges for Video61 (i.e.. Jurassic Park 2, Preppie 1 & 2, Quaintaia Roo and others) long before you got into the picture.. Last year I sent over 50 rom images to V61 of games he can release on cartridges (All Matertronics, AI games, and lots of Mirage games.. etc..) you may ask your self.. why those hasn’t been offered on cartridges yet.. well.. Should I remind you time / testing… V61 do offer cartridges in great price!!!.. If you like the games buy them.. I know that he obtained enough of those Williams PCBS.. but I don’t think when they will ran he can stay in the same 20$ price area.. Bruce Lee is my work.. I converted this game to a cartridge in early 2002, it uses a standard XEG cartridge PCB.. Both Best & B&C have bunch of those empty PCBS.. they only need to burn & assemble the EPROM on them.. And since you J. are Mr. Know it all and can do it all better.. Please be my guest.. put a competition to Sunmark.. don’t just say what you can do better. I do find your attitude hostile toward Sunmark from start!.. Attacking SG prices, if you think they are high, please offer an alternative!!! You got the schematics of my for the 1meg SwXegs pcbs.. what stopping you?.. make cartridges your self.. Assemble the pcbs / burn the roms, test to make sure you are delivering a high quality product.. And not something that looks like this.. (sorry sas for using your picture) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 OK, I didnt want to post either but as a consumer of these carts I want to post my $0.02 $49.95 is a steep price, but I did but MC 1 and 2 - the 5200 cart looks very tempting also. Alley Cat at $44 did not. I hear lots of cool stuf is coming - cant wait However, If something comes out above the $49.95 price range I wont be interested no matter what(Unless Ultima 1-4 are on 1 cart ). At $49.95 I prob can only buy 1 or 2 a year (I just cant justify buying more). At $30 a pop I could justify buying a whole lot more I have no idea the costs or time - just the size and willingness of me to open my wallet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 OK -- this is all way too nasty now -- please lets not go down this route... I was ONLY trying to understand the whole process/cost/value thing -- so I've now ordered Alleycat, because: Mark is offering this neglected community a new service, and he deserves my support. My copy of MULE has been played non-stop since I bought it. I booted up Alleycat on disc last night, and remembered what a laugh it was -- so it can now sit on cart next to my copy of Necromancer!!!! sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andylama Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 OK -- this is all way too nasty now -- please lets not go down this route... Mark is offering this neglected community a new service, and he deserves my support. My copy of MULE has been played non-stop since I bought it. I booted up Alleycat on disc last night, and remembered what a laugh it was -- so it can now sit on cart next to my copy of Necromancer!!!! sTeVE, Good man. I agree with your whole post. I think everyone has expressed their opinion now, and publicised which side of the fence they are on, so to speak. Perhaps we should consider this thread finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 My Alley Cat arrived yesterday -- I'm playing it at work today (yeah, I know....) -- its ACE! Bill Williams really was one of the VERY BEST 8bit programmers, and Necromancer and Alley Cat are 2 of the greatest games on the old 800 :-) sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Steve, what the hell did everybody like on necromancer??? i never got a clue how to play the game..... btw. i saw yesterday on a german ps2 DVD an E3 trailer of an archon type of game for PS2? and it's not from EA.... hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Mo Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Lastly, re: the piracy argument. Valid point in many cases. As you know, much if not most 8-bit software is now public domain. HOWEVER, I strongly suspect that there is not ONE SINGLE 8-bit user who does not own LOTS of "pirated" software. Kind of a moot point, really. How is most of it public domain? I'm curious as to what you're basing this on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Hve, Come on Necromancer is great! One of the first multistage games where the gamplay changes in each stage. Great use of the hardware, colorful, good sound, excellent special effects. Challenging and diverse play mechanics on each stage, lots of little subtle variations and pacing cahges everytime you play. Just a GREAT game! sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andylama Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Lastly, re: the piracy argument. Valid point in many cases. As you know, much if not most 8-bit software is now public domain. HOWEVER, I strongly suspect that there is not ONE SINGLE 8-bit user who does not own LOTS of "pirated" software. Kind of a moot point, really. How is most of it public domain? I'm curious as to what you're basing this on. OK, you caught me with my pants down: I am NOT, in fact, a copyright lawyer! I apologize if I gave the impression that I actually know what I'm talking about. Please feel free to enlighten me, but as I understood, from a legal standpoint, copyrights are held by the company that publishes it and NOT the actual author(s). If the company dissolves, there is no longer an entity that has claim to copyright, unless someone (say, the author) assumes it through legal channels, but this does not happen automatically. It is probably safe to say that most of the companies that published games for the 8 bits are no longer in existence. If I am dead wrong about the copyright issue, which seems fairly probable, please set me straight. ...as if it matters one iota. My original point stands: everyone reading this post probably possesses plenty of illegitimate 8-bit software, and nobody really cares, and therefore, it's STILL a moot point. I will endeavor to speak more precisely in the future. Regards to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 How is most of it public domain? I'm curious as to what you're basing this on. OK, you caught me with my pants down: I am NOT, in fact, a copyright lawyer! I apologize if I gave the impression that I actually know what I'm talking about. Actually, Some titles have been put into public domain by their authors, but if you don't know, then you must assume it's still protected. I found the following on a law site, but there's disagreement between different (even reliable) sources on how long the copyright lasts. "When granted, current copyright protection generally lasts for the duration of the life of the author (such as a software programmer) plus 75 years. When the program is a "work for hire" the protection lasts for the earlier of 125 years from the date of creation or 95 years from the date of publication. " Some sites say 50 or 70 years, some indicate that the clock starts when the item is published, not when the author dies. No matter what, most Atari software is covered in any case. By the way, that cat picture cracks me up!!! -Bry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Steve, what the hell did everybody like on necromancer??? i never got a clue how to play the game..... btw. i saw yesterday on a german ps2 DVD an E3 trailer of an archon type of game for PS2? and it's not from EA.... hve I liked it till I finished it... Crappy ending.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Each stage is different in necromancer - stage 1 - plant seeds to grow trees needed for the next stages - use your cursor to stop the trolls from killing the trees - also need to swipe those nasty birds. Trolls can go through fully grown trees so theres some strategy for you Stage 2 - move down the castle - you can plant a tree (if you grew some on the previous stage) to grow and crush the spider eggs Stage 3 - Capture the spiders before they get you - forgot what you pick up here. Fast paced and good music - a true classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 I could never figure that last board out. I'd be smacking spiders all the time and occasionally smack the necromancer, but I could never complete the board. How do you finally win it? Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andylama Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Last phase of Necromancer, IIRC: Hold the joystick button down to allow your wizard to "walk". Walk over the graves to collect the headstones. The objective is to collect ALL the headstones, while avoiding the spiders. Every time you get them all, you repeat the process at a faster level. I don't remember what happens after that. Like so many games of that era, it probably just ENDS. Necromancer is an incredible piece of work, though. Brilliant sound effects and fiercely original game concept. Bill Williams (RIP) had what so many of today's hotshot game coders sorely lack: original ideas. He also did a couple of really interesting games on the Amiga platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendon Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I love Necromancer!! I'm constantly flipping between it and Oils Well on the cart. Lose after a few rounds of OW, then move to Necro.. get my butt handed to me in Necro and switch back to OW... I was wondering if anyone knew: Which came first, Oil's Well or Anteater? And was Anteater ever released for a home system? Mendon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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