Hiring A Programmer ?

[NovaXpress]

I

don't see why people are skeptical about programming someone else's ideas.

 

If Activision was asking about 2600 programmers-for-hire then they would have more offers than they could handle. If "Tommy17" actually had 10 grand to fork over for real then Im sure he'd find himself a programmer.

 

Why should our homebrewers get excited about some guy with no credentials mouthing off about a KISS game on a buleltin board? We've seen a lot of people with great ideas and no money or know-how. They usually get mocked, and justifiably so.

 

What the homebrewers are saying: ideas are a dime a dozen. Unless you really have the resources and money to hire poeple and make it happen then shut up and learn to program yourself.

[Snider-man]

My point is Tommy wants a 2600 cartridge made.  He does not have the know-how.  He wants someone to implement his idea.

yeah? Well, I can't play guitar, but I'd like Jewell toi record I song I've envisioned. What's the point here?

 

I think the fairest way is payment by the hour instead of by the project.

I think the fairest way is what the person who's being paid says it is. If he or she wants a salary or a per diem basis, that's they're perogative.

 

I don't see why people are skeptical about programming someone else's ideas.

Because everybody has an idea. Let's see: Knight Rider 2600, the entire Idea revolutions thread, redoing Bowling, Pente, Satan's Hollow, a dart simulation, some survival horror game , a new Adventure game for 2600, etc. There have been 1,000 can't-miss game ideas thrown out by folks. And the programmers themselves - without exception - are working on their own stuff.

If you get paid to do something you love, that shouldn't be a problem.

Good point. I'm sure when the $5,000 check clears, they'll get right on it.

 

Seriously, go do a search and look up every. single. 2600. game. concept that has been thrown out as the Ultimate Killer App. This pops up every other week, which is why it's become very hard to take seriously anymore.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

So you have to determine how, and I think the fairest way is payment by the hour instead of by the project.

Well, I have a job that I like and get e.g $25/hour. So when programming for the 2600 I would do for e.g. 50% of that.

 

Now multipy that with a few hundred hours and you get an idea.

[devils advocate]

I think one major factor that was left out here is that programming for the 2600 or any obsolete system, is a SPECIALTY TRADE.......

 

So whomever said that they SHOULD be payed by the hour is pretty out of touch with the real world......Any one who has a specialty that is really only known by a handful of people, can TELL THE OTHER PEOPLE, what they will charge. Not vice versa.

 

If I told a blacksmith HOW payment would occur, for example, he would laugh at me and tell me that HE would quote the terms, thank you very much, and if I didn't like it, I could find another blacksmith, or do it myself. HA .

 

As for using other peoples ideas? Well, money talks whwn it comes to a time investment. Half the set price up front minimum.

 

And as vintage programmers are so few, and there really is no established market, why would they bother working on other peoples ideas? Good will? No, good will is an AA member sending you a free centipede cart in the mail.......Not programming the centipede cart for you.

[NovaXpress]

Programming is a specialty trade (I'm there on that one).

Programming games is a specialty trade within a specialty trade (I'm out).

Programming Atari 2600 is a specialty trade on top of that (now take away almost every single game programmer in the world).

 

That's why it's nearly impossible to even come up with a price for 2600 programming in the 21st Century. Anyone who would devote themselves to such a rare, challenging and anachronistic ability is doing it on a level that is not motivated by money. There has to be a personal interest in the project. If one wants to make games for money then there are profitable systems to program for.

 

So maybe that's why many of us still find the best gaming satisfaction playing with 4K games and one-button joysticks. All the stores are filled with the lastest money-grubbing series from Microsoft and Nintendo, pulling every trick in the book to make some money in an oversaturated market (the cruch is already happening). The games we see from 2600 homebrewers are pure works of art, made only for pleasure. In a society where its "anything for a buck" it feels good to experience something that was done just because someone really wanted to do it.

[Numan]

Snider, I don't understand your analogy. Songwriters do write songs for artists to perform. Bernie Taupin ---- Hellllllllllllllooooooooooo. If you write a song that you think can go somewhere, then you can go and try to get some musicians who will record it for you. I'm not saying a KISS game is the killer app but if the kid wants to try something with it then don't scold him for it. I mean, I've seen Mr. Roboto and Combat Rock here.

 

Devil, I never said they SHOULD be paid by the hour, I said it was the fairest way that I saw, please read before you post. My opinion was you do it by the hour because it is their time spent. If you made a deal for X amount of dollars and suddenly the amount of time you spent exceeds that which you thought it would, you'd be pretty ticked.

 

Nova, I totally agree with your last post. But I think there are those who do not have the know how (for whatever reason) who are excited about what they see in the homebrew world and want to be a part of it. And for some people to sound like they are dismissing them as if they don't belong in that world I do not agree with.

[slapdash]

I don't see why people are skeptical about programming someone else's ideas.

Because everybody has an idea. [...] And the programmers themselves - without exception - are working on their own stuff.

 

This is the crux of the issue... Since it takes so much time to program a 2600 game, and even more so to program, test, revamp, retest, etc, a GOOD 2600 game, guys like Thomas, Paul, Manuel, Dennis, et al, can only program so many things. And it's only natural that they will put their own projects first.

 

Now, if one of these guys suddenly runs out of ideas, they'll be a lot more receptive to programming something for somebody else. Hell, they might even do it for free. But that's not going to happen -- unless a pile of money really DOES show up and/or they have a real interest in the idea -- until all their own stuff has gone from their head to the screen already.

[Ehrbad]

So maybe that's why many of us still find the best gaming satisfaction playing with 4K games and one-button joysticks. All the stores are filled with the lastest money-grubbing series from Microsoft and Nintendo, pulling every trick in the book to make some money in an oversaturated market (the cruch is already happening). The games we see from 2600 homebrewers are pure works of art, made only for pleasure. In a society where its "anything for a buck" it feels good to experience something that was done just because someone really wanted to do it.

 

I agree with you 100% on this one, man. I think what you're referring to, correct me if I'm wrong, is craftsmanship, and the complete lack of it with companies today, and I don't mean just games. People don't have the same amount of emotional commitment and pride behind products when they're mass produced. If it's your name on the product, you're going to make damn sure it's high-quality. 2600 homebrewers belong to a dwindling set of craftsman who actually give a sh*t about what they put out.

[NovaXpress]

2600 homebrewers belong to a dwindling set of craftsman who actually give a sh*t about what they put out.

 

That's it in a nutshell. And that's why I have more pure fun with the homebrews than I do with whatever EA is slopping onto the shelves this week.

[Nukey Shay]

I don't see why people are skeptical about programming someone else's ideas.

Because everybody has an idea. [...] And the programmers themselves - without exception - are working on their own stuff.

 

This is the crux of the issue... Since it takes so much time to program a 2600 game, and even more so to program, test, revamp, retest, etc, a GOOD 2600 game, guys like Thomas, Paul, Manuel, Dennis, et al, can only program so many things. And it's only natural that they will put their own projects first.

 

Now, if one of these guys suddenly runs out of ideas, they'll be a lot more receptive to programming something for somebody else. Hell, they might even do it for free. But that's not going to happen -- unless a pile of money really DOES show up and/or they have a real interest in the idea -- until all their own stuff has gone from their head to the screen already.

Other factors would be pressure, since the programmer would be doing something for somebody instead of for themselves. No deadline, the thing will be finished when it's done. And idea people might not have a clue about what is possible on the hardware. Meaning that the entire concept of the game might have to be changed to fit into what the programmer can pull off.

And heck, why is everybody always aiming for the 2600? You have an idea but can't spell it? Work on something that you know how to program. 5200 homebrews are certianly lusted after, right? Or even something easier, like a Game Maker-type project. If it's a novel idea and makes a fun game...it WILL be played no matter what platform it's made for.

[Inky]

If you have an idea, but don't know a thing about 2600 programming, try another platform / programming language.

 

I'd start with Game Maker, on the Windows platform to implement your idea.

 

If you want to play it on TV, get a video card with the S-Video out.

[san-d-2000]

Since I really don't like KISS (IMO the are "xxxx" ), I would charge 20,000 EUR.

 

If i had lots of money i would hire you right now, just as a joke.

I also really don´t like kiss.

 

They did get better in their later period when they didn´t do the make-up anymore

[Ehrbad]

If someone was interested in learning to program for the 2600, and has no experience in programming ANYTHING, what are we talking about for a timeline learning how to make a functioning, playable game.....3 years, 5 years? I think it would help to put things in perspective for those of us who may be interested in programming, but have to real clue what kind of investment in time and energy it requires.

[Big Player]

Big,

 

My point is Tommy wants a 2600 cartridge made.  He does not have the know-how.  He wants someone to implement his idea.

 

Obviously that someone's time is valuable to them, so they must be compensated for it.  So you have to determine how, and I think the fairest way is payment by the hour instead of by the project..

 

By the hour would be fine--whatever the programmer accepts. My point was I don't think you realize just how many hours it takes to program a 2600 game. I am of course assuming that the objective is a game that has been thoroughly playtested, debugged and polished. But still it takes a lot of time to put together even an unplayable demo.

 

I don't see why people are skeptical about programming someone else's ideas.  Elton John has Bernie Taupin.  William Orbit does work for everybody from Gary Numan to Madonna to Pink.  If you get paid to do something you love, that shouldn't be a problem.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with hiring a programmer. What the person with the idea doesn't understand is what it's going to cost him to get his idea made into a game. I gave idea revolutions the same advice to hire the programmer (Thomas in that case) and I was serious both times. If either really had a burning desire to see his idea made into a game, they wouldn't balk at the price. Both times the cost has been undervalued.

 

My guess is they do like their ideas, just not that much.

[Nukey Shay]

If someone was interested in learning to program for the 2600, and has no experience in programming ANYTHING, what are we talking about for a timeline learning how to make a functioning, playable game.....3 years, 5 years? I think it would help to put things in perspective for those of us who may be interested in programming, but have to real clue what kind of investment in time and energy it requires.

I believe that it was stated that if the programmer knew the system, it would still take a reasonable amount of six weeks or so to turn out a game. That's programming 8/5 (like they did at Atari back in the day), and with the benefit of KNOWING the system. The timeline of learning assembly, creating anything functional with it, and then learning it all over again on the 2600 would depend on how dedicated the person is. I see at least two years (a feasable "real-world" estimate...where you still need to pay the rent and such)...start to finish...know-nothing to completed game. The problem is that people have a tendancy to put stuff on a shelf when they get stumped with something...and it makes it that much harder to get back into it. Fudge in an additional 6 months to a year for that to be realistic.

[xredmenacex]

They did get better in their later period when they didn´t do the make-up anymore  

 

Better?! The make up and that dude's frighteningly large tongue were the only good things about that band.

[moycon]

Dammit, that does it. Look for regular updates, posts, and freakin' results beginning in mid-August. Thanks to all of you who kept giving me regular kicks in the butt to get back to work. (I'm such a piker.)

 

"You can do it.... It's all up to you MmmmmmmmmmmmKay."

With a little help you can finish that game todaaaaaaaaaay

You dont have to spend your life addicted to smack,

Homeless on the streets giving handjobs for crack,

Follow my plan and very soon you will say, its easy mmkay"

 

 

Ok I'll stop...

[Ehrbad]

Man, that's great!!!

[Snider-man]

Dammit, that does it. Look for regular updates, posts, and freakin' results beginning in mid-August. Thanks to all of you who kept giving me regular kicks in the butt to get back to work. (I'm such a piker.)

 

"You can do it.... It's all up to you MmmmmmmmmmmmKay."

With a little help you can finish that game todaaaaaaaaaay

You dont have to spend your life addicted to smack,

Homeless on the streets giving handjobs for crack,

Follow my plan and very soon you will say, its easy mmkay"

 

 

Ok I'll stop...

Step one: Instead of a** say "Buns," like "Moycon, kiss my buns" or "Moycon's a buns-hole."

Step two: Instead of s**t say "Poo," as in "bullpoo," "Moycon's a poo-head" and "Moycon's poo is cold."

Now I'm gonna have that song in my head all day, mmmm-kay.

[mos6507]

Not all the eligible 2600 programmers for hire are currently inspired to write their own games.

 

Some of them are having the equivalent of writer's block.

 

If someone comes around and waves money in their face to write a game, I don't see how that's a bad idea.

 

Just because it's someone else's idea doesn't mean it's necessarily something the programmer-for-hire is going to HATE having to write.

 

It also doesn't mean the person hiring the programmer would dictate every minute detail of the game spec to the programmer without any room for the programmer's input.

 

The fact is that collaborating this way is how the real industry works and it's not a bad exercise to learn how to do a project for hire in a way that you get paid AND are able to express some creativity in the process.

[NovaXpress]

Not all the eligible 2600 programmers for hire are currently inspired to write their own games.  

 

Some of them are having the equivalent of writer's block.

 

Which programmers need ideas? Why haven't we heard from them asking the rest of us for help? Again, which guys need ideas? Give us names.

 

If someone comes around and waves money in their face to write a game, I don't see how that's a bad idea.

 

So who is actually waving money in their faces? No one. Just a lot of hot air being blown around. If this guy comes up with 15,000 to make a game then people will talk to him.

 

The fact is that collaborating this way is how the real industry works and it's not a bad exercise to learn how to do a project for hire in a way that you get paid AND are able to express some creativity in the process.

 

You can't compare today's process to the old school way. 2600 games were almost invariably a solo project. If you're going to go retro by making games for the old system, why not do it the old way and act alone? And again, who is actually paying for it?

 

Do you not get the real point here? No one is seriously hiring Atari programmers. These fanboys just want someone to make their neato-keen idea into a reality and they have no resources to pay for it and no clue as to what is really involved.

"Tommy17" hasn't made a single post to this thread since the gurus started talking real money. This KISS game, like Knight Rider and Orient Express was nothing but a lot of bullshit. Not real. Not serious. Never was. Therefore we laugh.

[Tommy17]

"Tommy17" hasn't posted a single thing because all I wanted to know was how feasable it was. I didn't need allot of the condesending, holier than thou bull-sh**. I am fairly new to AA and wanted to see if it could be done. A few answers to a question. That's all.

 

Nobody here knows my financial situation and frankly, it's none of anyone's business. I'll make my own decision as to if I am willing to spend, or how much to spend on a project.

 

I am sorry that I posted the question now. Some of you people are waaayyy to anal. For the few people who did read the post and answered intelligently, thank you.

 

Tommy #17

[NovaXpress]

People get testy with their responses because this exact same thing comes up TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

 

Seriously, every week another one of these ideas pops up. All of them bring it up just like you did then fade away once the reality hits.

 

Nobody here knows my financial situation and frankly, it's none of anyone's business. I'll make my own decision as to if I am willing to spend, or how much to spend on a project.

 

You're the one who brought it up. You wanted to hire a programmer right? Now they are responding and you've had nothing to say. Not even an "I didn't know that" or "I think i can overcome that."

 

Still waiting on the Knight Rider 2600 project . . .

[Tommy17]

People get testy with their responses because this exact same thing comes up TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

 

Seriously, every week another one of these ideas pops up. All of them bring it up just like you did then fade away once the reality hits.  

 

 

You're the one who brought it up. You wanted to hire a programmer right? Now they are responding and you've had nothing to say. Not even an "I didn't know that" or "I think i can overcome that."  

 

Still waiting on the Knight Rider 2600 project . . .

 

That's all well and good, and I can understand your point, but what about people who are new to AA and honestly don't know ? Like myself.

 

I did want to see the possiblilty of hiring a programmer. And to be honesty, I still don't know if it's possible or not. I've had nothing to say because I've been too busy sorting through all of the negative responses.

 

I am not going to apologize for asking a question and expecting a reasonable reply.

[Nukey Shay]

The initial responses were probably truthful...though I'd agree that $5000 is a pretty low figure. Even for Manuel. j/k

@Manuel

Just so you know, Thomas once offered himself to I.R.Betterprogrammer for a couple thousand IIRC

 

Anyway, another BIG problem would be facing the cease-and-desist that would inevitably come from the marketing monster known as Kiss (who would certianly get wind of the project if it was posted on a public board such as this).