emkay Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 This is another post in another forum where ATARI freaks getting suicided by argues.... http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php...der=asc&start=0 Please note: If you want to argue against C64 please do not use any 4 color pictures with some DLIs or Games that are partial ripped from C64. Hell... I am really angry about that.... In 1990 I created the MCS standard and released it to the public domain since 1991. Why the f*ck did no one recognize that possibility to create colorfull pictures or built the standard to an enhancement in all that time until today....? Why did no one realize the machines capabilites to use the Interrupt possibilities to push pokey to the limits...RMT does all but that....but, maybe it is on the right way.... To create softwaresynth-routines for pokeys generators after softsynth itself to save CPU time after all... Please note: As a computer in definition of "computer", the XL/XE is multiple times better, but the C64 has some graphics- and soundfeatures that cannot be reached..... the way they were built on C64 itself. But by using of my mentioned techniques, it is possible to create music like on AMIGA AND use pictures of 64 colors and more.... even hires with colors is possible. But without such optical and acoustical demonstrations, it would be better not to compare anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Ok -- I'm gonna be devil's advocate here and say that I still don't get what the big deal is with MCS... Since 1980 the 8bit has been host to 160X192 resolution pictures with 9 colors per scanline, and upto 128 colors in total... I liked the pictures you showed - the Sentinel Eye in particular, but I stil don't see what is so special, it all looks to me like Antic E or Antic 4 with DLI's and PMG for extra colors... If you could provide source code examples, or a detailed breakdown of MCS I might "get it", but as I said above, it all looks like regular clever Atari Art to me And that thread is just funny on lemon -- who cares what's "better" anyway -- not me, I always will wind up Atari Bashers who come to AA tho'!!! sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 You know what bugs me. 64 fans can rip into the Atari for all kinds of things, but when you figure that the 400 was introduced in '78 when there were NO computers on the market optimized for graphics & sound, you realize that the fact that it keeps up with the 64 at all is amazing. What's more, it surpasses it in many ways. The difference is that the Atari was designed to be the most advanced home computer in its day and the 64 was designed to be the cheapest home computer to offer 64K. The 64 only keeps up with the Atari because 4 years had passed between the introduction of the 2 machines. What did Commodore offer in '78? The monochrome PET! -Bry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 Ok -- I'm gonna be devil's advocate here and say that I still don't get what the big deal is with MCS... [...] I liked the pictures you showed - the Sentinel Eye in particular, but I stil don't see what is so special, it all looks to me like Antic E or Antic 4 with DLI's and PMG for extra colors... The "big Deal" is still the usage of those capabilities to create colorfull pictures with the lowest cpu usage anyway. Your "aaww It's so easy" point of view puts me to ask you, why there never have been so "easy graphics with up to 64 colors" in pictures of XL/XE games even from Electronic Arts? It seems all but not easy... especially in the fact that mostly only simple text was used or one color pictures with 4 brightnesses .... and even if DLIs are used, they were not used to make the picture more colorfull, but just only to show some colors...???...!!! Do you get "the deal" now? :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 You know what bugs me. 64 fans can rip into the Atari for all kinds of things, but when you figure that the 400 was introduced in '78 when there were NO computers on the market optimized for graphics & sound, you realize that the fact that it keeps up with the 64 at all is amazing. What's more, it surpasses it in many ways. The Hardware of the XL does not only surpass the C64 in many ways. It surpasses even the ST in many ways. Take a look at the HW-Registers or at the ability to play 4 PCM voices. Even the AMIGA lost some goodies of the XL/XEs.... Try to scale the HW-abilities from the XL/XE into a 32Bit computer and Games like C&C:Generals would have been possible in 1993 ... If you know what I mean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 If Atari had kept its engineers and designed the Amiga in house, it could have ruled throughout the 80's. It's a shame that Warner had no idea what it was doing. -Bry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApolloBoy Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 You know what bugs me. 64 fans can rip into the Atari for all kinds of things, but when you figure that the 400 was introduced in '78 when there were NO computers on the market optimized for graphics & sound, you realize that the fact that it keeps up with the 64 at all is amazing. What's more, it surpasses it in many ways. The difference is that the Atari was designed to be the most advanced home computer in its day and the 64 was designed to be the cheapest home computer to offer 64K. The 64 only keeps up with the Atari because 4 years had passed between the introduction of the 2 machines. What did Commodore offer in '78? The monochrome PET! -Bry Hey, watch it because I happen to be a fan of the C64! I like both the Atari 8-bits and the C64. Both computers have their strengths and weaknesses. The Atari is better at handling sprites, its OS is easier to use, and its serial bus is faster. The C64 is better at generating graphics and sound, it has less outdated technology, and it has a multitude of programs. Say what you Atari fans will about the C64, say what you C64 fans will about the Atari, but I will always like both for what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 emkay -- why is MCS low CPU usage, if MCS is DLI and PMG overlays, what about the STANDARD is so effective, please explain... As to why 80's software companies did not do high color pictures in every game (a few do some nice stuff, Alternate Reality and Astrochase spring to mind), well that's simple, cost vs reward... If you are going to sell no more copies of a game, or not enough to offset the cost of producing such extras then including them is money ill spent. Since the early 80's high color pictures have been around in somes games, but also in user software (there used to be some great ANTIC discs with slideshows of some great colorful images)... What about making some high color images now, for game use, what about something like Defender of the Crown??? sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 The MCS standard begins with a multiple charfont screen, turns over the usage of "not" using (712) for background to filter the PMg resolution and finals - ofcourse- by a clever usage of up to 9 colors. After all recognizing of the available possibilities by 9 colors per scanline, -and after that at all - , one may add more colors by DLIS. It is a higher graphics level. Give it a name is to give it a being. Here you see a picture with 6 colors Do you see the difference between this and the MCS Pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Can you explain exactly what you mean by: turns over the usage of "not" using (712) for background to filter the PMg resolution and finals I'm assumign that's how u extend the PMG color resolution, but more detail please :-) Oh and by the way this is what I meant by Alternate Reality: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 Jetboot Jack just to make it clear.... this is one of the pictures I truely hate on the XL/XE. The graphics are looking helpless and the high count of wrong used DLIs and their resulting CPU usage makes me sick. 1. You see every pixel of the screen, because there is no color left to create Anti Aliasing effects. 2. The DLIs are showing very much colors, but the colors are used just to show colors. This means, the colors do not enhance the picture itself. To me this looks horrible. Two big errors are made. One is how the way is colored... from orange to yellow to dark brown .... turning into light red... and... the mountains are on the bottom white and on the top grey.... the same colors are used in the "chrome" of the door. The only effect that fits into the picture is the green and its dispersion inside the starship. The most bad thing is, that the same colors from outside are viewable inside the starship too. So the picture has no depth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 I get yer drift, it is bit ott! This one is very nice in every way tho': Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 Jetboot Jack what means "OTT" The picture of the city is ok by its artwork and I was very impressed as the Starship arrived.... but even here was to get very more potential out of the XL/XEs abilities. Even in graphics and in sound, especially when fixed graphics are used. It was truely possible with the XL/XEs HW to create graphics with more deepness and realism. But I have to add, that The Dungen in graphics and sound is very much better than The City. Especially the characters/enemies are made better.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 I'm assumign that's how u extend the PMG color resolution, but more detail please :-) Here I don't get, what you want more? How the MSC is build, is already explained here: http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.p...1&highlight=mcs So what is it, what you want to know anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 OTT -- over the top :-) I still don't get "and 712 is the "filter" for the PMG" -- how does the masking work? Or do you simply mean that wherever 712 is used the big PMG show through?? If so its my bad -- I thought you were talking something more complex... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 The MCS is truely nothing complex . It is only a definition to create better graphics from the beginning. The only complex thing is the non linear memory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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