emkay Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 That's a nice picture. It's something a C64 can't do Well... this is not only a picture...It's my Game ADMIRANDUS...I built it in 1990 and putted techniques in it, that no demo shows today. For example: Hires Colored Font and Hires Colored Sprites (the colored point-cursors) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Oh, but now I look better it's exactly 4 char. wide, so with: .... lda#$00 ldy#$c0 sty GPRIOR (4 cycles) sta GPRIOR (4 cycles) .... ..it must indeed be possible. It only shows that a CPU can access one byte of memory only once per character (although it doesn't seem possible in charmode to me, must be gr.8 ) The title screen of Admirandus uses one DLI for the whole screen.... with charmode ANTIC 2 ... In every line are 12 colorchanges done....exept line 0 of every Charmodeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 So what kind of game is Admirandus, is this the wrapper interface in these shots? What does it look like when playing, and can you explain the game play... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 So what kind of game is Admirandus, is this the wrapper interface in these shots? What does it look like when playing, and can you explain the game play... sTeVE It is a Wheel of Fortune type game... chose the right Letter and with some luck you will gain the most points. You can play it with up to 4 Players. The picture is the ingame Screenshot. The Picture inside the Game changes with the type of phrase you have to find, and the chart shows the actual Points in % . A PM-Wrapper is not built in, because there is no PM graphics used Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 PM wrapper -- sorry you lost me... I was refering to wrapper as in the outside gameplay interface screens -- I thought this was that kind of shot... So the kinds of things you've been descibing here in this thread are based upon this fixed screen game, I can see how they apply now Have you ever tried the kinds of techniques you've been descibing with arcade style play (action), lots of movign objects with collision checking etc. In my current testbed I have about 30 colors on screen (up to 11 per line, no tricks just playfield and multicolor pmg) with up to 12 PMG objects at once onscreen, although I am planning to go the "flickering" route for the PMG for more than 2 multicolor sprites per line when they horizontally overlap, its ANTIC 4 with no software sprite work, I cannot find the Menace sources Altough the more I look at Black Lamp game the more I am certain I can do MUCH better in my efforts I am keen to try PMG overlays with prior fun for MORE colorful display (its a NES conversion)... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Have you ever tried the kinds of techniques you've been descibing with arcade style play (action), lots of movign objects with collision checking etc. I had tried some similar experimentings... This is, why I know, the best way to create fast Softwaresprites is to simple copy a linear row of bytes, than to EOR and EOR and EOR One way was to create a Routine that controls by positions and not by collisions for the gameplay... Then the Sprites have only to be copied... By using of PMG for Overlay in the full Background, it is never needed to EOR anything in a Sprite-Routine.... An engine build on this base of programming can be enhanced until the limit of CPU speed.... So... maybe... for optical cases, an EOR-routine can be used for the main-sprite movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 Sorry EMKAY, you've lost me can you explain more in detail... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 mux... holy shit... can you post pictures of the tv and the board??? that's sounds great... hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Sorry EMKAY, you've lost me can you explain more in detail... sTeVE How should I explain, what you already know better ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 It's a hardware upgrade: You have to know, that my point of view ever was to get more out of the available hardware... Everyone can write better programs on better hardware Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 @emkay ever thought that native english speakers might not understand our german english??? i guess steve just havent understood what you wanted to say or explain... hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted August 15, 2003 Author Share Posted August 15, 2003 Hve - exactly, I couldn't read what you've written Emkay, I'm sure I can understand your concepts, but the post made no sense to read... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Hve - exactly, I couldn't read what you've written Emkay, I'm sure I can understand your concepts, but the post made no sense to read... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 @ Steve btw... what's up man... EA internals? game slipped, coders decided to rewrite complete engine? you don't like the new bond girls in the next bond game? just kidding... will you attent @ ects 2003 or games convention in germny? hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 @emkay ever thought that native english speakers might not understand our german english??? i guess steve just havent understood what you wanted to say or explain... hve Ofcourse I did I never went to the UK or US to active learn this language. I wasn't ever on a vacation though ... So today I am still fighting with my "school-english" that I've learned 20 years ago I think my standard english is still to understand...but it seems to lack if I have something to explain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Hve - exactly, I couldn't read what you've written Emkay, I'm sure I can understand your concepts, but the post made no sense to read... sTeVE I have created a small picture that includes my idea of which I think how a 3D-Engine was possible. Once I mentioned a PM-wrapper... This picture shows (I hope at least it does ) why PM is better to use for fullscreen movements and such a "wrapper" is necessary to use Player-Missile-Graphic like a bitplane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 I think the basic idea is good, but I think you should use bitmap graphics. Otherwise you'd need too much characters for all different movements/zooms of an object/enemy etc. Especially with bigger enemies. I think your model would apply better for platform games. Look at sheddy's space harrier '91 demo. If you use PM (instead of the playing character) for the overlay and add some colors with a horizontal kernel you'd get far more flexibility IMHO. gr. 7 might be enough for a 3D-game. If you want to restrict yourself to square-mazed (doom-like) 3d-games, your model might apply better, but you still are restricted to a small number of available characters. ----- mux By this technique you never would have to use more than 128 characters. Example: On the left wall are red-bricks You will need about three sizes and can reduce any Cluster to one char. So you will need: 1 char for smallest size 2 chars fo medium size 4 chars for biggest size. +lineup max. 8 chars Then you have to align them for the wall from the farest/smallest size up to the nearest/biggest size. From the upper to the lower of the wall, you can allways use the same char. So for the full-wall "texturing" 15 Chars are used. To correct the 3D-view of the wall, it is only necessary to change the charmem of the (max. 15) characters, that are building the walls textures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Off course you can always flip the charset between 4 or 8 sets. There is no logical way to preload any charsets for a free movement in 3D. You still can divide the screen in horizontal regions with different charsets. Forget those techniques for a 3d engine. You only have 64K memory available The fastest way is to use PM for a cheap fullscreen movement. The next step is to use the chars for a raw Overlay and the final step is to change the charmem of the used chars where it is needed ....which means to change graphics like in the linear graphicsmode and NOT to switch between charsets... Everything else is nonsens and will look like MOOD, end like VECTOR or will only work in a Demo. Regarding to the main thread.... My picture shows the possibility to create softwaresprites without any overlay calculation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 So, you want to make a 3D-engine in the most flexible way? As it has to be? -using (overlay) PM in coarse mode or non-DMA-mode for large surfaces of one color (walls e.a.) -using some characters for boundaries between walls and open air -using the rest of the characters for some playfield details, bullets and enemies DMA-Mode for PMg would be more usefull. And, I still hope, there is enough time to put some graphical specials like video-monitors in... Would it require double buffering? Evtl. it is possible to use the charset itself for double buffer. -fill char 1 -draw char 1 -fill char 2 -draw char 2 Only when "the big" Enemy appears, the engine may drop off double buffer, because the enemy needs chars for itself. Do you think it could work at 50 times/second? good playability will happen at 20 and more fps. Why more? Every CPU-Time can better be used to enhance the graphics or the soundquality... I think I understand now that your method requires an engine that updates the single charset in realtime every frame, but.. How much characterdata would need to be updated? How much screendata (charcodes) would need to be updated? 128 chars will be updated at max. Coarse calculation: 15 chars per wall * 3 walls = 45 chars 45 chars *8 =360 Bytes per frame... But, sometimes walls are simple grey... It could be many bytes to handle so you MUST make restrictions (on framerate/positionprecision/possible movements e.a.) I think positions of softwaresprites in SpaceHarrier91 (which reminds me of "TextPlot" I remember from the late 80's) do have a restriction to byte-precision instead of pixel-precision, and I still think it looks great. Byte precision in movement will be ok. but you can make it look like a pixel-precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 ah... at least somebody who throughs code together... very nice one... alternate realtiy:the dungeon DX cis oming... hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 That is very nice - If it could actually run smoothly Bards Tale is not out of the question IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 The picture reminds me about a Alternate Reality: The Mario World Analmux You are on the right way. But...: As I can see, you use a yellow color two times. One in the PM and one in the Playfield. This is a design mistake. Please remember the PAL screen. You need allmost one white color for the whole screen, so you can "mix" it with other colors. And you can enhance the 3D look and feel with more different brightnesses... I would even give up to move PMg. The engine must allways calculacte Player positions and "looking". It will save time to hold the positions static. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 @Analmux Instead of the missile, it is possible to give the hero more colors by using your violet color + white + red (brick-color) for this the colors of 710 and 709 have to be exchanged (and the DLI-colors) What tools are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 That's a personal choice. I think if you want to use the full 100% capability of the machine you should use this too. And my preference is the use of multiple charsets. I don't think it is a personal choice. It is a choice of the available CPU-speed. If there is after all enough speed available, you may move "the world" around... Just ms-paint for the shapes (in 4 colors), then with copy-paste I made a strip of font-blocks in paint, then save as 256-color bitmap (upside down) Heck... the first that has to be done is to create A8-optimized-editing-tools, before trying a 3D-Engine...or creating demopics at least... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracon Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Ok a couple fo questions..Does anyone know where to get GED display routines? I've got one. Jaskier - a coder from my group, has created it some years ago. It was a bit tricky (cycle-exact alike procedure) but he succeed! There are some GED pictures drawn by Polish Atarians... I think I have it yet, but mail me to get the details. Besides we have to finish the interview I started one year ago So in some time I hope it will be finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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