TMR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 now try #63 instead... and you should have fullscreen... of course it will mess up your hires gfx as your gfx is converted to 160x (40 bytes per scanline...) but at least your scroller should work in fullscreen... Since writing this, i've converted one of my character plasmas to full screen height so i'll have to experiment with making it literally fullscreen. But taking the borders out when it's not a fight isn't as much fun... =-) ps. great gfx! did your guys draw the pic + font? The font and logo tiles are mine and custom (i'm not entirely happy with the font yet) and the picture is converted from a PC production with ImageWire (my own Windows-based 4 colour converter) and just there as a test for now; this is literally the first thing i've tried putting together so i needed data to make sure it worked... =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Did the BASIC code above help with your black pixel problem? No, but i think it's not actually possible to get around the problem; i worked out that the "black" pixels are actually the colour of the player (i'd set it dark because the colour values were being OR'd together). The screenshot i posted works around the problem, the light blue logo is only three colours using the two playfield colours that change and the background, all adjusted by the overlaid player. That creates some restrictions on what i can and can't do colour wise, but that's half the fun of doing stuff on an 8bit... =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 TMR... i can send you a tool which i use to transfer bitmaps into different fonts incl. optimising etc... if you convert your background pic into fonts you could add the 5th color. hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 TMR... i can send you a tool which i use to transfer bitmaps into different fonts incl. optimising etc... if you convert your background pic into fonts you could add the 5th color. S'okay, i've already started experimenting with character sets, my char plasma is 5 colours... i'm going to finish this product pretty much as is and work on a few ideas for something a little more complex. =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 You can export the RMT song as "XEX Atari executable msx export file (*.xex)". It contains player routine and song data together. Or you can export as "RMT stripped song file (*.rmt)" if you need the song data for some other memory location. Blimey, it puts up a bit of a fight!! i've got RMT music in my product now, but i didn't half struggle to get that far - is there any chance you could add something about using the music in own productions to the docs in the next issue for Atari newbies like me...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Slight deviation from the topic here but sort of relevant, the Commodore Plus/4 community is also working on enhancing their graphics output; the screenshots attached below are of a new variant on FLI and are at 320x200 res pulling from the Plus/4's 121 colour palette. These are all converted images, no hand drawing at all as far as i know (apart from a bit of text) so imagine what this mode could do with an artist behind it...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 @ TMR cool pics! what kind of tools do i need for Plus4 coding??? (assembler, gfx tool, d64 maker, etc...) what is the best emulator? cheers, karolj ps. i love this kind of "free open minded" cross 8bit developments + talks... never happended in the 80s... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raster/c.p.u. Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 i've got RMT music in my product now, but i didn't half struggle to get that far - is there any chance you could add something about using the music in own productions to the docs in the next issue for Atari newbies like me...? I'm sorry for difficulties. Do you think, that example in "asm_src" directory isn't sufficient? (sources: music.a65, rmtplayr.a65, rmt_feat.a65, songfile: music.rmt, batch file: music.bat => music.xex) I thought that it's obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 @ TMR cool pics! what kind of tools do i need for Plus4 coding??? (assembler, gfx tool, d64 maker, etc...) There are a couple of assemblers, all the C64 ones work fine (i use C64Asm, the same tool i use for C64 code). Graphics wise, the new mode only has a converter so far, but there are native tools for turning out graphics and with a little fiddling about with colours C64 tools work again. My personal preference for D64 tools is StarCommander. http://members.chello.hu/toth.balint/software[/ur] - C64Asm. plus4.emucamp.com - Plus/4 World (demos, games and tools for download). sta.c64.org - StarCommander. what is the best emulator? At the moment, YAPE (Yet Another Plus/4 Emulator) is probably the most accurate, although WinVICE has finally officially gained 264 series emulation so hopefully there'll be some competition soon. yape.homeserver.hu ps. i love this kind of "free open minded" cross 8bit developments + talks... never happended in the 80s... i actually like the flamewars too, i learnt a lot about 8bit machines during a particularly intense crossposted war on comp.sys.cbm and comp.sys.sinclair that ended up invading the Atari, CPC and BBC Micro groups in the process. =-) The Atari is pretty much new territory for me, i've got an 800XL from the "olde days" but i never got into programming it back then, probably because i was so heavily into Commodore kit i couldn't get my head around the differences (being about 12 didn't help =-). The Plus/4 and Atari are me branching out and discovering strange new worlds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I'm sorry for difficulties. Do you think, that example in "asm_src" directory isn't sufficient? (sources: music.a65, rmtplayr.a65, rmt_feat.a65, songfile: music.rmt, batch file: music.bat => music.xex) i'm a coder of close to 20 years experience of 6502/10 but the Atari is an alien environment, everything is like a funhouse mirror of what i'm used to for the moment and having to assemble the music driver is fairly involved. i've probably been spoilt by C64 tools that simply optimise, relocate and save a driver followed by data with the first six bytes being jumps to the initialise and play routines. If there were one source file (just the driver, i don't need the music.a65 file) that i could change a single label in to relocate everything and it included the .RMT file directly after the driver rather than having it at whatever location the file was saved i'd have probably found it easier. I thought that it's obvious. Well, it's obvious if you know how to use an XEX file but i'm really coming to the Atari from a totally different environment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 @ TMR can not wait to get home and try some more plus4 stuff out.... hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 TMR Some questions about the PLUS/4 pics. The Resolution is 320x200? Due to the Hi-Res-transitions that are viewable, are they the "colors" you counted (121) or only transitions? Are the pictures interlace-free? BTW: I can hear the second picture (fli1) talking "Come on dude. Put me into Interlace an show me on the ATARI XL/XE in High Resolution" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Some questions about the PLUS/4 pics.The Resolution is 320x200? Yes, the Plus/4 shares a hi-res attribute system with the C64 so in stock 320x200 mode, the Plus/4 can have two colours per 8x8 pixel attribute cell so 80 colours per character line. That resolution increases to 8x2 pixels for each attribute cell with the DFLI routine used for these images (there are two badlines per 8 pixel row rather than one on the C64). Due to the Hi-Res-transitions that are viewable, are they the "colors" you counted (121) or only transitions? Not all colours are in use in these images, but the hardware palette of the Plus/4 is 121 colours; fifteen colours at eight luminances and black. That's why there are two badlines, luminance fetch takes one and colour fetch another and if you don't allow for that i believe it starts feeding the luminances to the colour matrix. The transitions in the images are mainly caused by the converter not being particularly selective (it's new and still being worked on) and, should an editor appear, the ability to clean up the joins or draw from scratch should enhance the images greatly. Are the pictures interlace-free? These were two of the four images released at the SceneCon party in Hungary over the weekend (and a fifth already exists) and only one is interlaced. Since i'm not keen on representing interlace in still GIF, i didn't post an image of that one but i was much impressed. BTW: I can hear the second picture (fli1) talking "Come on dude. Put me into Interlace an show me on the ATARI XL/XE in High Resolution" Which is the effect i was hoping to have by posting those images - just get a logo, scroller and music up around it and release at a party for more impact when you do it! =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 TMR Again I outlined some color-bugs.... I am still wondering, if the PLUS/4 has still 15 colors in 8 brightnesses, why there are such color-bugs in the picture and 80 colors are available in a scanline? I think by the available 121 colors there must have been colors to fit more better into the picture itself. Btw.: Again the picture is build by quarders... very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Again I outlined some color-bugs.... I am still wondering, if the PLUS/4 has still 15 colors in 7 brightnesses, why there are such color-bugs in the picture and 80 colors are available in a scanline? The attribute cells are still there, they're 8x2 pixels so there are limits to where colours can change and limits to which colours will look right after that transition. Additionally, the converter is sometimes bottling out and attempting to do too much in one 8x2 pixel cell - since each can only hold two colours it can only switch colours every 8 pixels across so what would be a more subtle horizontal shade on the original image produces those jumps. No human intervention has taken place on those images so the converter's attempts at blending are what we're seeing, a hand drawn or at least edited image should be able to hide the problem a lot more in the same way that hand-drawn AFLI pictures on the C64 tend to show far less in the way of attribute errors. Remember, this is prototype stuff we're looking at here and still work in progress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 TMR You think it is only a converter-bug? On the XL it would be possible to create Hires with colors and PMg overlays incl. DLI and a DL Interlace. This would mean up to about 14 colors in a scanline and no atribut-cells but logic usage of colors needs a precalculation....is the handycap I think it would be very usefull, if a converter tried to convert Pictures to a MCS++ format (160*192(240)) , so anyone can see, what would be possible before trying Hires... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 hahaha.... emkay... then write one converter... or TMR can we adapt the plus4 converter??? is it written in c? hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 @ TMR just surfed over your site... what i never got a clue about are kefren bars... i saw you wrote one small intro with them... can you enlight me how this fx is done???? hve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 @ TMR just surfed over your site... what i never got a clue about are kefren bars... i saw you wrote one small intro with them... can you enlight me how this fx is done???? hve Kefrens bars are done by modifying a line of graphics as it is drawn down the screen. What you notice is that at the top there is only one bar visible, while there are many at the bottom. On the Atari, this is done by modifying the same line of graphics (set up a DL that draws the same line over & over) and just add a bar, then WSYNC, then add a bar, then WSYNC. If you use a cosine H-displacement, you get the effect. -Bry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 @ TMR ...and imagine what a c64 coder can do with 128 or 256 bytes per scanline video ram... here some examples (not yet expanded to 256 or 128) http://www.s-direktnet.de/homepages/k_nadj/i.html esp. for fx like bump mapping... and here is the intro... unfortunatly it's not on my server anymore...who knows why? http://www.uni-karlsruhe.de/~Marek.Tomczyk...oft/titel50.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raster/c.p.u. Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 If there were one source file (just the driver, i don't need the music.a65 file) that i could change a single label in to relocate everything and it included the .RMT file directly after the driver rather than having it at whatever location the file was saved i'd have probably found it easier. Yes, you're right. Sorry once more. It isn't so easy how it could be (not enough time and energy ). I assumed, that only skilled Atarians will do this, the others will only simply export and run XEX file. So, I know at least, you're very clever man. Well, it's obvious if you know how to use an XEX file but i'm really coming to the Atari from a totally different environment... Ok, it's all right. But IMHO it's necessary to read some generally documentation for each system if somebody want to make a programs for it. (http://www.atariarchives.org (Mapping The Atari, etc.)). IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 just found these before going to work... all PC based tools as far as i see: a gfx to fonts converter: http://atariarea.histeria.pl/pliki.php?sec=show&id=129 a BMP to TIP converter: http://atariarea.histeria.pl/pliki.php?sec=show&id=67 unfortunatly all docs again in polish language but should be understandable... hve/tqa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 You think it is only a converter-bug? It appears to be the converter attempting too much in a finite space - since the converter has just been told "pick a good couple of colours for this attribute cell" it doesn't take into account how it's choices are going to look in relation to the cells around the one it's working on as such (very few converters have that ability). In my opinion, the very best pictures on just about any 8bit have human intervention somewhere along the line to correct that. On the XL it would be possible to create Hires with colors and PMg overlays incl. DLI and a DL Interlace. This would mean up to about 14 colors in a scanline and no atribut-cells but logic usage of colors needs a precalculation....is the handycap I think it would be very usefull, if a converter tried to convert Pictures to a MCS++ format (160*192(240)) , so anyone can see, what would be possible before trying Hires... Then someone needs to write a converter - since i haven't got to the point where i can code the mode yet i'm not qualified and my own Win converter is specificially designed to convert images into three colours because i prefer to add colour by hand and tidy the output for the reasons i listed earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Kefrens bars are done by modifying a line of graphics as it is drawn down the screen. What you notice is that at the top there is only one bar visible, while there are many at the bottom. On the Atari, this is done by modifying the same line of graphics (set up a DL that draws the same line over & over) and just add a bar, then WSYNC, then add a bar, then WSYNC. If you use a cosine H-displacement, you get the effect. This is an effect i was thinking about doing on the Atari - it's actually a lot easier than on the C64 because a traditional Kefrens bar routine has to force a repeat of one scanline with a vertical smooth scroll bug as well as write the data into the line. Of course, the routine i used in "Presets" sacrifices resolution for the ability to put graphics over the effect... =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Yes, you're right. Sorry once more. It isn't so easy how it could be (not enough time and energy ). I assumed, that only skilled Atarians will do this, the others will only simply export and run XEX file. So, I know at least, you're very clever man. Actually, i'm just very persistent and it took three hours of fighting to get what i wanted going. As a sense of scale, i managed to rip the SAP headers off Zero War and got that playing in ten minutes... But IMHO it's necessary to read some generally documentation for each system if somebody want to make a programs for it. (http://www.atariarchives.org (Mapping The Atari, etc.)). IMHO. i'm reading Mapping, Atari Roots, De Re Atari and so forth in pieces as i need to know stuff but there doesn't appear to be any documentation on the emulator formats like XEX (in the same way the C64 Programmers Reference Guide doesn't cover D64 files). Maybe i should do a piece when i get a little more acquainted with the Atari if there isn't one already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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