Have floppies, will image (if I can find the tools)

[+x=usr(1536)]

Did search on this, but couldn't find a definitive answer as to the best toolset to use.

 

I have a 32-bit Win10 machine with a Sabrent USB floppy drive attached to it.  There's also a fresh 10-pack of 3.5" floppies sitting here doing nothing.  I'd like to start writing images out to some of these disks in order to test out the ST I recently reanimated.

 

What would be the best way to approach this?  AFAIK the machine is running a 1.0x version of TOS (still to be confirmed), so formatting to 720K / skewed disks is the best I can hope for.

 

If *nix tools are preferred, I do have the option of doing this from one of the RasPis.

Edited September 30, 2019 by x=usr(1536)

[AMenard]

ST reads PC formated disk, so if your PC floppy drives can format 720k floppies that'll be fine. I personnaly don't know of a pc based st disk manager, but if you can find one you should be able to copy from adisk image to the pc floppy.

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, AMenard said:

ST reads PC formated disk, so if your PC floppy drives can format 720k floppies that'll be fine. I personnaly don't know of a pc based st disk manager, but if you can find one you should be able to copy from adisk image to the pc floppy.

Understood re: STs reading PC-formatted disks (I'm an ex-ST owner :) ), but what I'm looking for is a recommendation as to what the best tool that will work under Win10 is that can image ST-bootable disks.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

USB floppy disk is not good for Atari floppies. Some handle only 1.44 MB (HD) format. May work with 720 KB format, and that's good for Atari ST, but you will be very limited if want to write some concrete Atari floppy images with diverse SW, because on Atari 800 KB format was more popular.

So, first thing is to see specs of that Sabrent USB drive. If it is only 1.44 MB you may forget whole thing.

Getting another one, what works with 720 KB ? As said, it's very limited.

 

I made Windows SW, what deals with Atari floppy disks http://atari.8bitchip.info/floimgd.php

It is for internal PC floppy drives, which are connected to PC mainboard. So, for older PCs, since new motherboards have no floppy controller.

It works not with USB drives, and will not - because limitations mentioned. But it may help you in adding files to images. At bottom you may DL some empty floppy images, including 720 KB.

I really don't know what Windows SW is good for USB floppy drives. In any case, you can not override HW limitations with SW - very limited formats supported.

 

So, if that Sabrent works with 720 KB format, you will be able to write 720 KB images on it. Formatting to that format may be problem with Win 10. But can use empty image from that link above. Then should be able to add files - at least it worked with Win XP. Not sure that Win 10 will be happy with 720 KB format. Then can add files with FloImg or even with some Atari emulator (Steem for instance).

 

What I can say for end is that modern devices like newer motherboards, USB floppy drives and modern OS (Win) are not Atari floppy friendly. They support mostly only 1.44 MB format. Atari floppy handling was very flexible from start, so people used 800 KB format a lot (reliable and fast), and even 880 KB - what was less reliable and slower, but worked. TOS version is really not relevant here, only in case if you want to format floppy with Desktop formatter - not recommended, since there are many better formatting programs for Atari available.

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

7 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

USB floppy disk is not good for Atari floppies. Some handle only 1.44 MB (HD) format. May work with 720 KB format, and that's good for Atari ST, but you will be very limited if want to write some concrete Atari floppy images with diverse SW, because on Atari 800 KB format was more popular.

So, first thing is to see specs of that Sabrent USB drive. If it is only 1.44 MB you may forget whole thing.

Getting another one, what works with 720 KB ? As said, it's very limited.

 

Agreed.  However, if I can get the appropriate tools running on the ST, I can use its drive to write skewed images.  Doing that will mean a lot of disk swapping as the ST's second drive is still 1300 miles away, but for now I can live with it.

 

7 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

I made Windows SW, what deals with Atari floppy disks http://atari.8bitchip.info/floimgd.php

It is for internal PC floppy drives, which are connected to PC mainboard. So, for older PCs, since new motherboards have no floppy controller.

It works not with USB drives, and will not - because limitations mentioned. But it may help you in adding files to images. At bottom you may DL some empty floppy images, including 720 KB.

I really don't know what Windows SW is good for USB floppy drives. In any case, you can not override HW limitations with SW - very limited formats supported.

 

Thanks, and I'll be sure to check that out once the USB floppy drive is working.  More on that below:

 

7 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

So, if that Sabrent works with 720 KB format, you will be able to write 720 KB images on it. Formatting to that format may be problem with Win 10. But can use empty image from that link above. Then should be able to add files - at least it worked with Win XP. Not sure that Win 10 will be happy with 720 KB format. Then can add files with FloImg or even with some Atari emulator (Steem for instance).

 

The Sabrent (model is FL-UDRV) claims to support 720KB disks.  However, after attempting to get the drive working after several months of inactivity, I'm running into two issues:

• Win10 sees it and recognises when a disk is inserted.  However, it doesn't read the disk or allow it to be formatted.  This is with 1.44MB disks, BTW - I don't have any 720KB floppies to hand (though I could probably cover up the 1.44MB hole and fake it).
• macOS Mojave recognises that it's connected, but the drive just constantly runs the motor and tries to seek.  It won't mount or read disks as expected.

Thus, I'm starting to think I may have a bad drive.  Going to give it a shot on one of the Windows 7 VMs here later, but I don't expect different results.

7 hours ago, ParanoidLittleMan said:

What I can say for end is that modern devices like newer motherboards, USB floppy drives and modern OS (Win) are not Atari floppy friendly. They support mostly only 1.44 MB format. Atari floppy handling was very flexible from start, so people used 800 KB format a lot (reliable and fast), and even 880 KB - what was less reliable and slower, but worked. TOS version is really not relevant here, only in case if you want to format floppy with Desktop formatter - not recommended, since there are many better formatting programs for Atari available.

Yep, I remember having a formatter that would go out to close to 900KB and making a lot of use of it.  If it comes down to it I can see if anything in the pile of past laptops has a working drive and try that, but would prefer to not have to go that route if possible.

[AMenard]

2 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

Agreed.  However, if I can get the appropriate tools running on the ST, I can use its drive to write skewed images.  Doing that will mean a lot of disk swapping as the ST's second drive is still 1300 miles away, but for now I can live with it.

 

 

Thanks, and I'll be sure to check that out once the USB floppy drive is working.  More on that below:

 

 

The Sabrent (model is FL-UDRV) claims to support 720KB disks.  However, after attempting to get the drive working after several months of inactivity, I'm running into two issues:

• Win10 sees it and recognises when a disk is inserted.  However, it doesn't read the disk or allow it to be formatted.  This is with 1.44MB disks, BTW - I don't have any 720KB floppies to hand (though I could probably cover up the 1.44MB hole and fake it).
• macOS Mojave recognises that it's connected, but the drive just constantly runs the motor and tries to seek.  It won't mount or read disks as expected.

Thus, I'm starting to think I may have a bad drive.  Going to give it a shot on one of the Windows 7 VMs here later, but I don't expect different results.

Yep, I remember having a formatter that would go out to close to 900KB and making a lot of use of it.  If it comes down to it I can see if anything in the pile of past laptops has a working drive and try that, but would prefer to not have to go that route if possible.

I know it may not be a solution for you but in my case I ended up buying a used, XP running DELL computer with a 3.5" floppy for $20 at a recycler. 

Windows 10 is bad at managing legacy hardware.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

19 hours ago, AMenard said:

I know it may not be a solution for you but in my case I ended up buying a used, XP running DELL computer with a 3.5" floppy for $20 at a recycler. 

Windows 10 is bad at managing legacy hardware.

 

 

Agreed, but that particular Sabrent drive is considered current and supported under Windows 10.  Regardless, it appears to be confirmed that the floppy drive has a mechanical issue: in addition to macOS Mojave and Windows 10 Pro, I've confirmed that XP SP3, Windows 7 Pro, and Raspbian Jessie are also able to successfully detect the drive but can't make it do anything.

 

Ordered another one; at $13 on Amazon it was the cheapest and fastest potential fix.  If it doesn't work, I'll send it back.

 

Right now my thinking is that a Netusbee may be the longer-term solution - yes, writing to USB storage is slow on them, but as a Swiss Army Knife for getting systems up and running quickly it should be fine.  An Ultrasatan will probably end up being the daily-use mass storage solution, but until I can audit the other two machines I have and figure out which ones are the keepers I'm holding off on that.

[+x=usr(1536)]

Received the replacement USB floppy drive last night.

 

The good news: unlike the previous one, it actually works.

 

The bad news: despite claims to the contrary in the user manual, it won't actually work with 720KB media.  Three different OSes, three different read / format failures. 1.44MB disks are fine.

 

It's increasingly looking as though the Netusbee is in my future.  That'll at least let me get the system to boot to more than just TOS, but doesn't solve the longer-term issue with floppies - namely that there are disks I want to image.

 

The ancient laptop is looking to potentially be the mid-term solution to that.  Annoying, because it's one more piece of hardware to have to find space for - and the Windows 10 box referred to earlier is actually an Intel Computestick whose sole purpose in life is to be a media imaging station.

Edited October 3, 2019 by x=usr(1536)

[ParanoidLittleMan]

For floppy imaging SCP - Super Card Pro could be solution what takes little space. It goes on USB port, has own SW. Will need floppy drive for, what should be no problem. Just a bare drive, not USB floppy combination. SCP is done mostly for copy protected disk imaging, but will of course image well regular, unprotected FAT12 format disks. With Aufit you can convert SCP format to regular ST image format, and SCP is supported by some Atari emulators too.