+Andrew Davie Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 In this close-up, we can see where the camera has caught both frames (in the lower squares), but only one of the frames (in the upper squares). Although the lines forming the square colour are just one scanline, in the upper (behind the pawn) they are thin, and in the lower, they are thick. In fact, the square colour is formed by 1 blue line, two black lines, one blue line... etc. But in the lower square we see how the interlacing has widened the blue line so that it now appears roughly the same thickness as the black line. This is what I mean by interlacing putting "more colour" on the screen - the blackness is reduced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Karl G Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 First one is on my tiny Triniton, and the second one is on my OLED TV. Looks good on both. Flicker is slightly visible if you look for it, but not an issue. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, Karl G said: First one is on my tiny Triniton, and the second one is on my OLED TV. Looks good on both. Flicker is slightly visible if you look for it, but not an issue. Many thanks. Which do you prefer - interlaced or the original? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Karl G said: What gorgeous colours/display. It makes it look good 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Karl G Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said: Many thanks. Which do you prefer - interlaced or the original? Interlaced, I think. The color contrast seems to be more clear, if nothing else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Al_Nafuur Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 3 hours ago, Andrew Davie said: Thanks - sorry, Chess is currently NTSC only - I should have reiterated this! Edit: Having said that, only the colours should be screwed; the TV seems to be coping with the actual image. My perception, though it's hard to tell for sure from the picture - is that the lines for the squares seem to be slightly thicker - the gap between them is reduced compared to earlier versions. Edit2: Despite being B&W - the contrast between the black and white pieces themselves is excellent. Very happy with that. Yes the contrast was very good. I played a short game with this version, until the AI made a very clever trick, it captured my pawn "en passant" several moves after it moved his pawn passed mine. My pawn indeed made a 2 square beginning move, but this was several moves before all this happened. ? After this ingenious move i managed to win the game with my unpredictable "power off" move. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 Just now, Al_Nafuur said: Yes the contrast was very good. I played a short game with this version, until the AI made a very clever trick, it captured my pawn "en passant" several moves after it moved his pawn passed mine. My pawn indeed made a 2 square beginning move, but this was several moves before all this happened. ? After this ingenious move i managed to win the game with my unpredictable "power off" move. I left that in just to see if you were paying attention. You pass. Now I'll take it out, having served its purpose. 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+stephena Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 8 hours ago, Andrew Davie said: I don't think the emulators show this properly - I have a vague memory that Stella dropped interlaced support - yet to be confirmed. Stella never supported this. I believe z26 did at one point, and it was removed in the ASM-to-C rewrite. I see you've already created an issue for it, so we'll get to it as time allows. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 So you're saying Stella's gonna get a new graphics mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Karl G Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Have any games used interlaced mode before? I know there have been demos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Keatah said: So you're saying Stella's gonna get a new graphics mode? I believe the philosophy is basically if a '2600 with a TV can do it, then so can Stella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Karl G said: Have any games used interlaced mode before? I know there have been demos. Not to my knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 BTW I'm pleased with the current color scheme. The alternating colors for the "possible move" markers work good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 We were discussing interlacing back in 2002... https://www.biglist.com/lists/stella/archives/200206/msg00200.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 My extremely professional screenshots give some idea of the difference. It's minor, but it's there. Interlaced on the right. I have put the interlacing on the right difficulty switch, so now you can toggle back and forth while the game is running, to see the difference. Me, I think I prefer the interlacing but it's subtle. I don't see any reason I can't just leave it on the switch and allow the user to choose. chess3E+20200707i.bin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Has anyone thought of using the B/W switch to multiplex sets of left/right difficulty? BW switch set to BW means the difficulty switches control one set of options. BW switch set to COLOR means the difficulty switches control another different set of options. Or how about using the keypad controller to "instantly" set something. Heck there's like 12 buttons on it! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 55 minutes ago, Keatah said: Has anyone thought of using the B/W switch to multiplex sets of left/right difficulty? BW switch set to BW means the difficulty switches control one set of options. BW switch set to COLOR means the difficulty switches control another different set of options. Or how about using the keypad controller to "instantly" set something. Heck there's like 12 buttons on it! All you need is one switch, really.... user manual: "To select two player mode, toggle right difficulty switch on-off-on-on-off-off-off-on at 10 Hz." 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 9 hours ago, Karl G said: Have any games used interlaced mode before? I know there have been demos. Tapper: I experimented a bit with interlacing on the 2600 a while ago, and I remember that I got issues with PAL color loss. IIRC, adding one scanline to one of the field eliminated the color loss (e.g alternarting between 312.5 and 313.5 lines), but these field with different line count screwed the image at least in an old BW TV. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 37 minutes ago, alex_79 said: I experimented a bit with interlacing on the 2600 a while ago, and I remember that I got issues with PAL color loss. IIRC, adding one scanline to one of the field eliminated the color loss (e.g alternarting between 312.5 and 313.5 lines), but these field with different line count screwed the image at least in an old BW TV. I guess I better have a play with my PAL machine and see how things go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 OK, have now tested on PAL. Whilst the interlacing does actually work, the first 20 or so scanlines on my TV have incorrect colours. So, I've started to dig deep into PAL TV interlacing/timing. The following site appears to have some good info... http://blog.retroleum.co.uk/electronics-articles/pal-tv-timing-and-voltages/ In particular the diagram shows how to correctly form a PAL interlaced frame. I'll see if I can do something like this... it's certainly much more complex than the fairly simple system I have currently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 20 hours ago, Al_Nafuur said: Tested on PAL 2600jr with PlusCart 20 hours ago, Andrew Davie said: Edit2: Despite being B&W - the contrast between the black and white pieces themselves is excellent. Very happy with that. I'm digging the black and white look. Could that be option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Nathan Strum said: I'm digging the black and white look. Could that be option? I had a go, but... not really. The problem is that the inensities of "true" white (i.e., colour 0) do not match the intensities of the other colours rendered by the TV without colour. So there's much more subtlety/graduation available with the latter. The test I did using just shades of colour 0 were not sufficiently different to easily distinguish the pieces black/white. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 Black and white test version. chess3E+20200708BW.bin 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Andrew Davie said: OK, have now tested on PAL. Whilst the interlacing does actually work, the first 20 or so scanlines on my TV have incorrect colours. Some more recent PAL CRTs behave like that instead of showing color loss. See here: https://github.com/stella-emu/stella/issues/265#issuecomment-350328199 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 6 hours ago, Andrew Davie said: Black and white test version. Well, it would make for an interesting mental challenge having to keep track of your pieces like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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